Obama won’t apologize for Hiroshima nuclear bombings - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Swilly;50247702]First the fuck off. How is the fucking shit you posted relevant to the fucking article? It literally has nothing to do with the article and more selfwankery that you're trying to put in to somehow throw an emotional gutpunch instead actually following facts. Further, you mentioned Germany and reparations yet completely ignored the massive amounts of money the US pumped into both Germany and Japan after World War 2 to help them recover, rebuild and become the economic powerhouses they are today. Just stop, your posting of that little tidbit was not only unneeded but complete and total flamebait.[/QUOTE] [quote] says something about the way the United States deals with apologies. [/quote]

Now let's entertain the thought that the U.S. didn't nuke them. Then what? [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa"]Battle of Okinawa[/URL] taught us that Japan was ready to use school-children, both boys and girls, in military roles when defending homeland. They proved that the IJA would use civilians as human shields. They proved that the USMC could not or would not tell the difference between civilians and conscripts, and often fired indiscriminately. They proved that the IJA was ready to rob civilian populations of all their food to feed themselves, leading to famine. They proved that, in the face of defeat, IJA would encourage or enforce mass suicides of civilians to avoid 'capture'. It led to one in third civilian on Okinawa dead. U.S. estimates, which are low, put it at 140.000 civilian casualties of the roughly 300.000 people living there. Now, imagine that, on mainland Japan, where the population is in the millions. And that's not even counting the ruthlessness of the Soviet soldiers, if the war on the eastern front was anything to go by. For the record, the atomic bombings together killed a maximum 250.000 people. An absolutely awful amount, but compared to a mainland invasion it's nothing.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50247776]This was pretty well hashed out in [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1514240"]this thread[/URL]. Our main argument for why the United States shouldn't apologize is that the nukes not only saved American lives, but also saved many more Japanese lives as well. Just read the thread I linked to, I don't want to repost all of the arguments again. Also I'd like to point out that if anybody else derailed like Starpluck just did in this thread, they would have been banned already.[/QUOTE] Why can't you still apologize for it even if it saved people? "I'm sorry I had to do this horrible thing but as things looked back then it was for the better" There. Apology. [editline]3rd May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Riller;50247785]Now let's entertain the thought that the U.S. didn't nuke them. Then what? [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa"]Battle of Okinawa[/URL] taught us that Japan was ready to use school-children, both boys and girls, in military roles when defending homeland. They proved that the IJA would use civilians as human shields. They proved that the USMC could not or would not tell the difference between civilians and conscripts, and often fired indiscriminately. They proved that the IJA was ready to rob civilian populations of all their food to feed themselves, leading to famine. They proved that, in the face of defeat, IJA would encourage or enforce mass suicides of civilians to avoid 'capture'. It led to one in third civilian on Okinawa dead. U.S. estimates, which are low, put it at 140.000 civilian casualties of the roughly 300.000 people living there. Now, imagine that, on mainland Japan, where the population is in the millions. And that's not even counting the ruthlessness of the Soviet soldiers, if the war on the eastern front was anything to go by. For the record, the atomic bombings together killed a maximum 250.000 people. An absolutely awful amount, but compared to a mainland invasion it's nothing.[/QUOTE] Not the point at all. It's a gesture. I don't know in what kind of world you grew up in where you only apologize when the bad stuff you do does not turn out fine. You are basically arguing that the results justify the means.

[QUOTE=Killuah;50247751]The rammifications and consequences are not. Their children are not. My grandfather is not. My family that got split and displaced is not.[/QUOTE] you want their children to pay for what they did? someone who was probably like 9 at the time should shoulder the blame in your eyes?

[QUOTE=Killuah;50247751] Again, this is not the school yard. "But they started it FIRST" is childish and immature and it would show a lot of balls if the US apologized.[/QUOTE] why should the US apologize I seriously just don't understand why the use of the atomic bomb is even worthy of special attention All of WW2 was fought through bombing campaigns. The streets of every country where fighting took place were littered with innocent dead. That's just how you won a war. It was a horrible, abominable, indescribable meat grinder. And Japan actively sought it out in the hopes that they'd be standing on top of the corpses at the end. I don't see why we should apologize for stopping them by any means necessary. Imperial Japan would have wrought untold horror had they not been stopped.

[QUOTE=Killuah;50247787]Why can't you still apologize for it even if it saved people? "I'm sorry I had to do this horrible thing but as things looked back then it was for the better" There. Apology.[/QUOTE] Somebody went over this in the thread I linked to. I think saying that is fine, but then you're really stretching the definition of "apology". Implicit in an apology is admitting you did something wrong. Saying what you suggested doesn't admit any wrongdoing. I actually agree that the US government should probably say something like that though.

[QUOTE=butre;50247794]you want their children to pay for what they did? someone who was probably like 9 at the time should shoulder the blame in your eyes?[/QUOTE] No. Not alone. I don't want any person alone shoulder the blame. [editline]3rd May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Pantz Master;50247800]Somebody went over this in the thread I linked to. I think saying that is fine, but then you're really stretching the definition of "apology". Implicit in an apology is admitting you did something wrong. Saying what you suggested doesn't admit any wrongdoing. I actually agree that the US government should probably say something like that though.[/QUOTE] For me it's an expression of regret and I think it's not wrong to regret killing a lot of people even though it seemed necessary. You can regret things you have to do.

I was an idiot in the last thread, and I've thought about stuff in a way that has kind of changed my mind a bit on the bomb being inherently wrong. I do have a question though: did the US ever reach out to the Soviet Union in dealing with Japan?

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50247797]why should the US apologize I seriously just don't understand why the use of the atomic bomb is even worthy of special attention All of WW2 was fought through bombing campaigns. The streets of every country where fighting took place were littered with innocent dead. That's just how you won a war. It was a horrible, abominable, indescribable meat grinder. And Japan actively sought it out in the hopes that they'd be standing on top of the corpses at the end. I don't see why we should apologize for stopping them by any means necessary. Imperial Japan would have wrought untold horror had they not been stopped.[/QUOTE] Again. It's a gesture and a symbol.

[QUOTE=Killuah;50247801]No. Not alone. I don't want any person alone shoulder the blame.[/QUOTE] well everyone else involved is dead.

[QUOTE=butre;50247816]well everyone else involved is dead.[/QUOTE] The rammifications and consequences are not. Their children are not. My grandfather is not. My family that got split and displaced is not. The political consequences are not. The arbitrary country borders created as a follow-up causing a lot of the problems we face today are not. It's even more of a reason to apologize. You apologize to the people who are hit by the rammifications because your ancestors can't anymore.

[QUOTE=wauterboi;50247813]I was an idiot in the last thread, and I've thought about stuff in a way that has kind of changed my mind a bit on the bomb being inherently wrong. I do have a question though: did the US ever reach out to the Soviet Union in dealing with Japan?[/QUOTE] Soviet Union promised the U.S. that they would go to war with Japan, but only after Germany was over with and done. So it was a joint agreement to do it, I'm not sure how much of the actual war-plan for it was co-planned.

[QUOTE=Killuah;50247815]Again. It's a gesture and a symbol.[/QUOTE] A symbol of what? We did what had to be done because the racial supremacist genocidal maniacs who ruled Japan forced us to. It was terrible, and we should do everything in our power to create a world where such a thing will never happen again, but it was a necessary action at the time and there's nothing to apologize for. I just don't get what you're trying to say. A gesture of what? A symbol of what?

[QUOTE=Killuah;50247818]The rammifications and consequences are not. Their children are not. My grandfather is not. My family that got split and displaced is not.[/QUOTE] so who are you saying should take the blame? no shit there's still tangible consequences, but anyone and everyone who made that decision is gone. yeah there are still nazi soldiers alive but they're all either in prison for war crimes or agree that what was happening was shitty and had little or nothing to do with the actual atrocities. you keep giving me a lot of non-answers and that's really not helping your case.

[QUOTE=Killuah;50247818]The rammifications and consequences are not. Their children are not. My grandfather is not. My family that got split and displaced is not. The political consequences are not. The arbitrary country borders created as a follow-up causing a lot of the problems we face today are not. It's even more of a reason to apologize. You apologize to the people who are hit by the rammifications because your ancestors can't anymore.[/QUOTE] The weight of the inhumanity of WW2 lies solely on the backs of the people responsible for it. You do not have the right to apologize for them.

Why is it such taboo to bring up the rationale of "without the nuclear bombings, there would have been hundreds of thousands of more casualties on both sides", again? It's a completely valid argument; it, frankly, would have been stupid of the United States not to use the nuclear bombs when the alternative was much worse. And once again, Japan started the war. Hard to feel bad for a guy who pisses off a bull, then gets the horn. Fuck apologizing for that.

[QUOTE=Riller;50247825]Soviet Union promised the U.S. that they would go to war with Japan, but only after Germany was over with and done. So it was a joint agreement to do it, I'm not sure how much of the actual war-plan for it was co-planned.[/QUOTE] Were there already growing tensions at that point? Because a point I made in the last thread is that the atomic bomb could have served a purpose (although not the only purpose) in making a statement towards Russia. Regardless, I think we can still apologize and say, "Hey, it's not something we wanted to do. We're sorry that we had to do that."

[QUOTE=butre;50247843]so who are you saying should take the blame? no shit there's still tangible consequences, but anyone and everyone who made that decision is gone. yeah there are still nazi soldiers alive but they're all either in prison for war crimes or agree that what was happening was shitty and had little or nothing to do with the actual atrocities. you keep giving me a lot of non-answers and that's really not helping your case.[/QUOTE] "my case" jeez man this is a gaming forum discussion it's not about assigning blame [editline]3rd May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50247847]The weight of the inhumanity of WW2 lies solely on the backs of the people responsible for it. You do not have the right to apologize for them.[/QUOTE] The weight for dealing with its consequences however does not. Sure your grandfather might have installed the pipes but when they break and flood your neighbours flat it's up to you to deal with it.

[QUOTE=wauterboi;50247858]Were there already growing tensions at that point? Because a point I made in the last thread is that the atomic bomb could have served a purpose (although not the only purpose) in making a statement towards Russia. Regardless, I think we can still apologize and say, "Hey, it's not something we wanted to do. We're sorry that we had to do that."[/QUOTE] The U.S. and USSR were never friends. There had been tensions between them from before the Soviet Union even formally existed; the U.S. heavily supported anti-bolshevik factions in the Russian civil war. No one on either side of what was to become the iron curtain had any doubt that they were enemies even before the war; but they were just both faced with a greater evil and decided to kick the living shit out of that first before returning to hating each other. There's no doubt that the nuking of Japan was also a massive fuck-you to the Soviet Union, but that was pretty much just a bonus on top of a cheap-on-human-life ending to the war in the pacific.

You can totally apologize for your history. You can say, "We're sorry things got that low. We work hard on preserving the peace and sanctity of our global relations and will do anything to keep another World War situation from happening again. The US made good decisions and bad decisions. This one is far more gray area and subjective, and although could be seen as necessary did affect a lot of innocent people. We can apologize for that. That doesn't reduce who we are to apologize.

[QUOTE=Killuah;50247870]The weight for dealing with its consequences however does not.[/QUOTE] If we're talking about a government paying back it's war debt, that's one thing. It isn't like when the head of a company dies, the company loses all the debt accrued by him during his reign. But if we're talking about moral responsibility, no. You aren't morally responsible for things you didn't do. No one has the authority to take responsibility from other people, and no one has the authority to place responsibility on other people for other people's actions.

The US shouldn't have to apologize. While a apology might give some Japanese and world relations warm fuzzies, I think it will also give some old guard nationalists this continued idea that Japan was a victim and somehow contribute to history revision.

[QUOTE=Killuah;50247870]"my case" jeez man this is a gaming forum discussion it's not about assigning blame [/QUOTE] thanks for another non-answer. shows how much you really care about the subject. you know damn well facepunch stopped being a gaming forum years ago. it's been general discussion for eons.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50247895]If we're talking about a government paying back it's war debt, that's one thing. It isn't like when the head of a company dies, the company loses all the debt accrued by him during his reign. But if we're talking about moral responsibility, no. You aren't morally responsible for things you didn't do. No one has the authority to take responsibility from other people, and no one has the authority to place responsibility on other people for other people's actions.[/QUOTE] Then what's so bad about apologizing? Blame is no use for anyone. An apology to ease the tensions and open up for future talks or even more cincere talks does.

what worth is there in an apology where you truly believe you were in the right.

I find it hard to be convinced for the US to apologize for the bombings, yet to this day politicians in Japan deny the rampant war crimes committed by the Japanese military, it only seems as of late some of them admit it, did they apologize for Pearl Harbor, the Bataan Death March, the Rape of Nanking? At least Germany owned up to their crimes, and admittedly may have gone overboard with post-war guilt but that's another discussion.

[QUOTE=Killuah;50247905]Then what's so bad about apologizing? Blame is no use for anyone. An apology to ease the tensions and open up for future talks or even more cincere talks does.[/QUOTE] Because apologizing for doing what you believe was the right thing is spineless and two faced. "I would do it again and it was the right thing to do, but I'm sorry." It's just passive aggressively avoiding conflict.

[QUOTE=Killuah;50247905]Then what's so bad about apologizing? Blame is no use for anyone. An apology to ease the tensions and open up for future talks or even more cincere talks does.[/QUOTE] Maybe Japan should apologize for Nanking first and improve relations with China. This debate over the US and Japan will do jackshit in improving relations where they already are.

[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;50247924]what worth is there in an apology where you truly believe you were in the right.[/QUOTE] I don't know how to explain it but maybe you should read some Hemmingway to understand how you can regret doing things even though you were in the right doing them.

[QUOTE=Killuah;50247939]I don't know how to explain it but maybe you should read some Hemmingway to understand how you can regret doing things even though you were in the right doing them.[/QUOTE] I think I understand where you're coming from but I strongly and respectfully disagree.