Obama won’t apologize for Hiroshima nuclear bombings - Polidicks

If you're interested in the topic of the atom bombs and their ethical stature then the Logical Insanity podcast volume on it from Dan Carlin's Hardcore History is pretty great at setting the scene

Why does anyone care so much? Even after the first bomb the Japanese Naval Chief of Staff basicially said he and the military didn't give a fuck, that Japan has no issue getting hit by more atomic bombs. Then after Nagasaki the Japanese military tried to launch a coup to stop the Emperor from surrendering to stop the entire country getting glassed because the Military wanted to fight to the death like Okinawa where the Japanese Imperial Army successfully caused the deaths of over one third of the entire population of the entire Island over the course of a month. By the way, the Japanese Commander of the Okinawa operation had his Headquarters in Hiroshima and he was personally present for the debute of Nuclear Warfare. Shame he didn't get vaporized.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50247684]that kinda seems like a completely unrelated and entirely different situation[/QUOTE] It is. He's just throwing a hissy fit against the United States is all. Happens from time to time.

Exactly. It happened because Japan refused to give up sooner. It was on their heads. If they wanted to save face they should have quit after they realized we weren't giving up when they attacked at Pearl Harbor.

[QUOTE=Killuah;50247801]No. Not alone. I don't want any person alone shoulder the blame.[/QUOTE] Then stop talking about it, and stop creating issues where there aren't any to begin with. We did nothing wrong, we have no reason to apologize, and we're not going to apologize. And that's how simple it is. This is such a fucking tired subject; we go around and around in circles, pointing out the facts again and again about how necessary it was to bomb them, about how more people died in our incendiary bombing campaigns than did from the atomic bombs and how more people would have died from a land invasion (Operation Downfall), etc., and yet we still get nowhere. There's still people trying to create guilt out of thin air over something which we should feel no guilt over, and which we do not feel any guilt over clearly-- as our president has made clear.

[QUOTE=kill3r;50249875]Why the nuclear bombings? The tokyo fire bombings were far, FAR worse[/QUOTE] dude but [I]nukes[/I] [sp]/s[/sp]

If we were to apologize for the nukes, I'd hope Japan would apologize for the multitude of war crimes they committed... Truth is, American and Japanese lives were saved by the nukes, by the sole reason we didn't have to invade. Hiroshima and Nagasaki rebuilt, partly with American help. We bombed Japan and then helped them rebuild into the wonderful country they are today.

[QUOTE=Starpluck;50247627]This is the same logic used by people claiming that Germany does not owe any nations WWII reparations. They are still paying reparations to this today in May 2016 for a government and people that had nothing to do with them. No one is even asking Obama to personally apologize for Hiroshima. I think you're misunderstanding the point of a diplomatic formal apology.[/QUOTE] Ok fine so then when Obama gets there can we expect the Japanese president to formally apologize for Pearl Harbor & the countless war crimes, Chinese genocide, and inhumane treatment of America PoWs? Or does this 'muh feelings' circlejerk train only go one direction.

Why should America have to apologize for the nukes? America wasn't the aggressor, Japan was. If anyone is owed an apology, it's America for being attacked at Pearl Harbor in the first place. And Starpluck, that's why Germany apologizes but Russia/England/France/etc don't, is because Germany started the war in Europe in the first place, and it's their fault it happened.

that's like black people demanding some random white college student to apologize for the slavery

[QUOTE=Xmeagol;50251241]that's like black people demanding some random white college student to apologize for the slavery[/QUOTE] this already happens too

[QUOTE=Riller;50247683]Also bombing them like that was pretty much the only way to avoid a much, [I]much[/I] costlier land-invasion that they were gearing up to defend themselves against, which would have probably resulted in countless Okinawa-style massacres of civilians by the Japanese to prevent U.S. gains, and also a possible Germany-style splitting of the country with the Soviets poised and promised to invade from the north. The only ones who owe an apology is the Japanese leaders of the time refusing to surrender once the war was clearly lost.[/QUOTE] Pretty much. We're still handing out purple hearts today that were made in preparation for the invasion of mainland Japan

I don't ever remember Japan raising it's voice at the U.S because of it, and I don't remember Japan apologizing for the harassment in Pearl Harbor. It's a fair game. It's just that Japan managed to move on, but the US and west are still whining over history and who's dick is how many molecules bigger.

[QUOTE=Snoberry Tea;50251002]Ok fine so then when Obama gets there can we expect the Japanese president to formally apologize for Pearl Harbor & the countless war crimes, Chinese genocide, and [B]inhumane treatment of America PoWs?[/B] Or does this 'muh feelings' circlejerk train only go one direction.[/QUOTE] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan[/url] [quote]May 9, 2009: The Japanese government, through its ambassador in the U.S., apologized to former American prisoners of war who suffered in the Bataan Death March.[44][/quote] [quote]September 13, 2010: Foreign Minister Katsuya Okada apologized to a group of six former American soldiers who during World War II were held as prisoners of war[/quote] [editline]4th May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=SilverDragon619;50251599]I don't ever remember Japan raising it's voice at the U.S because of it, and I don't remember Japan apologizing for the harassment in Pearl Harbor. It's a fair game. It's just that Japan managed to move on, but the US and west are still whining over history and who's dick is how many molecules bigger.[/QUOTE] One of these is an scummy initiation of war, with less then a hundred civilian casualties, and the other 200k civilian casualties in what is effectively a carpet bomb.

[QUOTE=Squad1993;50249658]My grandfather would have been in the first wave in the invasion of Japan, [I]as a medic[/I]. It's safe to say the atomic bombings not only saved my life, my dad's life and his life, but MILLIONS of other lives. A necessary evil for the greater good. Look at Japan today. If we fully invaded there would be no Japan left to rebuild. End of story.[/QUOTE] same here, my grandfather would also have been there

[QUOTE=Cold;50252124][url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan[/url] [editline]4th May 2016[/editline] One of these is an scummy initiation of war, with less then a hundred civilian casualties, and the other 200k civilian casualties in what is effectively a carpet bomb.[/QUOTE] Who gives a fuck we vaporized 200k instantly in two cities, when the Japanese Army played bayonet the baby and murdered over 300k Chinese to death in Nanjing, and murdered up to 100,000 Chinese in Singapore? They're lucky we didn't nuke Tokyo and Kyoto.

[QUOTE=Broseph_;50253798]Who gives a fuck we vaporized 200k instantly in two cities, when the Japanese Army played bayonet the baby and murdered over 300k Chinese to death in Nanjing, and murdered up to 100,000 Chinese in Singapore? They're lucky we didn't nuke Tokyo and Kyoto.[/QUOTE] Where’s the truth? What’s to be believed? Or does it matter at all? When mass murder’s been answered with mass murder, rape with rape, hate with hate, there’s no longer much meaning in asking whose axe is the bloodier. Evil, on evil, piled on evil.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50253865]Where’s the truth? What’s to be believed? Or does it matter at all? When mass murder’s been answered with mass murder, rape with rape, hate with hate, there’s no longer much meaning in asking whose axe is the bloodier. Evil, on evil, piled on evil.[/QUOTE] Yeah but the difference is they attacked us first and we won in a method that allowed for minimum casualties When countries war, it's [I]war[/I] dude. War is awful but that's what it is.

Seems reasonable Heads of state simply do not apologise. Germany might have been the exception.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50253865]Where’s the truth? What’s to be believed? Or does it matter at all? When mass murder’s been answered with mass murder, rape with rape, hate with hate, there’s no longer much meaning in asking whose axe is the bloodier. Evil, on evil, piled on evil.[/QUOTE] Well besides it's an absolute fact the Japanese did those, we were close to nuking Tokyo, and even then it would have saved more lives than invading. People seem to forget it wouldn't have just been the Japanese military that we would have fought, but a possible fanatical population, which would have resulted in far more deaths.

[QUOTE=phygon;50254132]Yeah but the difference is they attacked us first and we won in a method that allowed for minimum casualties When countries war, it's [I]war[/I] dude. War is awful but that's what it is.[/QUOTE] But is the view "They didn't deserve any mercy because they committed atrocities themselves" the best for ending a war? To respond to injustice and cruelty with cruelty and injustice? To kill the innocent because they lived in the wrong country? Are the deaths of 300,000 innocent Chinese rectified by the deaths of 200,000 innocent Japanese? Where is the justice in that? [QUOTE=Pilot1215;50255656]Well besides it's an absolute fact the Japanese did those, we were close to nuking Tokyo, and even then it would have saved more lives than invading. People seem to forget it wouldn't have just been the Japanese military that we would have fought, but a possible fanatical population, which would have resulted in far more deaths.[/QUOTE] Saved more lives? You're saying that incinerating a city was justified because of this? Have not the victors of this war claimed such? I'm sure that if the Japanese won the war they would have claimed that the attack on Pearl Harbour saved lives. What happened to the numerous instigators of the war in itself? The Japanese war criminals and medical experimentalists? The ones who tortured prisoners and released toxic and biological agents into the world? Many were shipped back to the states and employed in biological or chemical warfare departments of the US government. Was the US really interested in justice, in saving lives? Why did so many evil men walk free?

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;50255906]To say japan deserves an apology for being the subject of a war ending device is simply foolish.[/QUOTE] Even the greatest nations ought to be humbled. America should apologize not for this, but for all of the innocent people harmed in the war. Just because Japan instigated the war, instigated genocide, and were brutal savages in every sense of the word, does not mean that the Americans are themselves without dirtied hands. [QUOTE=ilikecorn;50255906]Because at the end of the day getting rid of that knowledge was foolish. At the time bio and chemical warfare was indeed a valid area of study for the US, and it made perfect sense to bring those with expertise back to the US. Justice is defined by the winner, not the loser.[/QUOTE] So America committed a grave injustice by letting innocent men walk free? Why? Murderers and rapists, molesters and criminals in every sense of the word, deserved to walk free because they knew how to manufacture more weapons of war? A grave injustice committed to find out better ways to maim and kill people? Then why bother trying to justify America when she committed crimes and arbitrarily decides who gets to walk free or be murdered?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50255865]But is the view "They didn't deserve any mercy because they committed atrocities themselves" the best for ending a war? [/QUOTE] That's not my view. Japan was essentially North Korea v1 in terms of asian countries that had flown off the handle with nationalism and [I]they were not going to stop for anything[/I]. The bombs avoided a much more costly land invasion.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50255932]Even the greatest nations ought to be humbled. America should apologize not for this, but for all of the innocent people harmed in the war. Just because Japan instigated the war, instigated genocide, and were brutal savages in every sense of the word, does not mean that the Americans are themselves without dirtied hands. So America committed a grave injustice by letting innocent men walk free? Why? Murderers and rapists, molesters and criminals in every sense of the word, deserved to walk free because they knew how to manufacture more weapons of war? A grave injustice committed to find out better ways to maim and kill people? Then why bother trying to justify America when she committed crimes and arbitrarily decides who gets to walk free or be murdered?[/QUOTE] The freeing and protecting of war criminals is one of the greatest crimes committed by the US after WW2, and is something I think actually is deserving of an apology. But I don't think fighting back against an invading power is. War necessitates barbarism and cruelty. That is the horrible nature of war. It can't be done cleanly, and it can't be done justly. Blaming a nation that was forced into war by an aggressive and expansionist regime for waging war is nonsensical.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50255865] Saved more lives? You're saying that incinerating a city was justified because of this? Have not the victors of this war claimed such? I'm sure that if the Japanese won the war they would have claimed that the attack on Pearl Harbour saved lives. What happened to the numerous instigators of the war in itself? The Japanese war criminals and medical experimentalists? The ones who tortured prisoners and released toxic and biological agents into the world? Many were shipped back to the states and employed in biological or chemical warfare departments of the US government. Was the US really interested in justice, in saving lives? Why did so many evil men walk free?[/QUOTE] In the battle of Okinawa, 142,058 civilian casualties are known, but with the ones who fled to caves and died, plus the mass suicides induced by Japanese propaganda, the real number is unknown, but larger than those figures. 110,071 Japanese soldiers died in the battle as well. So we are talking about close to 200,000 deaths in one battle over a Japanese island that had 300,000 civilians, and 77,000 Japanese troops, and 20,000 conscripts from Okinawa, plus replacements, additional support, etc(Why the number of dead is higher than those currently on the island). 129,000 to 240,000 were killed in the nuclear bombings. It's pretty simple to say taking the home islands would have been much bloodier than taking Okinawa, plus with Japanese propaganda making the civilians think we were all rapists and murderers, pretty easy to tell the number of Japanese deaths would have been far greater than the 129,000 to 240,000 killed. So yes, the nukes saved lives.

Not only that but the main operational goal of Operation Ketsu-Go (Battle of Kyushu) wasn't even defense but a one million man suicide mission with no hope of winning but the [i]best outcome[/i] of the plan designers being the [i]deaths of over one million Americans[/i]. And based on Okinawa where 1 in 3 people of the [i]entire island's population died in one month[/i], You were looking at atleast 3 million civilian deaths; Or 5 million total for everyone involved and that was for just Kyushu alone; which represented less than 10% of the population of Japan. [IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/Japan_kyushu_map_small.png/220px-Japan_kyushu_map_small.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50247614]I mean I don't really think it's the sort of thing that's cut and dry enough to say the US definitely should apologize for it.[/QUOTE] Yea, millions of innocent people completely unrelated to the war is definitely not "cut and dry enough" for an apology. They don't necessarily have to say it's entirely wrong that they did it either, they could just be polite and say "I'm sorry that we had to do this, but it had to be done" and that'd be completely acceptable.

[QUOTE=space1;50258927]Yea, millions of innocent people completely unrelated to the war is definitely not "cut and dry enough" for an apology. They don't necessarily have to say it's entirely wrong that they did it either, they could just be polite and say "I'm sorry that we had to do this, but it had to be done" and that'd be completely acceptable.[/QUOTE] Why should we apologize? The Japanese effectively said "Nuke us again, we don't give a fuck" after Hiroshima.

[QUOTE=space1;50258927]Yea, millions of innocent people completely unrelated to the war is definitely not "cut and dry enough" for an apology. They don't necessarily have to say it's entirely wrong that they did it either, [b]they could just be polite and say "I'm sorry that we had to do this, but it had to be done" and that'd be completely acceptable[/b].[/QUOTE] We know it had to be done, everybody else for the most part knows it had to be done, and it was already done 70 fucking years ago. If it had to be done, which it did, then there's nothing to apologize for in the first place. [editline]5 May 2016[/editline] Really shows the ridiculousness of the age we live in; nonsense apologetic gestures and attempts to soothe hurt feelings mean more to people than tackling actual problems affecting the world. There's nothing to apologize for, and no apologies will be made by us. And that's how simple it is.

[QUOTE=space1;50258927]Yea, millions of innocent people completely unrelated to the war is definitely not "cut and dry enough" for an apology. They don't necessarily have to say it's entirely wrong that they did it either, they could just be polite and say "I'm sorry that we had to do this, but it had to be done" and that'd be completely acceptable.[/QUOTE] how are you getting "millions" out of "200,000"