• Julian Assange arrested
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Either way, the supporters have a bigger hand when it comes to arguing about it's pro's rather than its cons.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26553591]Except they've made no tangible points beyond "but you say 'bad things' and information should be free", meaning I don't have a lot to argue with. Would you prefer that I delete that neckbead statement? Would it make me that much better?[/QUOTE] Who is "they"? You're generalizing everyone on the opposing side as if everyone argues like that
[QUOTE=Jsm;26542637]It appears (although not being reported by any news yet, just rumours on the internet) that he gave him self up (as it was sort of reported he was planning to yesterday).[/QUOTE] Yes it has been reported, by AP.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26553591]Except they've made no tangible points beyond "but you say 'bad things' and information should be free", meaning I don't have a lot to argue with. Would you prefer that I delete that neckbead statement? Would it make me that much better?[/QUOTE] Exactly, just because it hurts the higher ups of the world and makes the people who have no use for it feel special, they think this guy is some revolutionary hero.
[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;26553573]I know, Wikileaks just showed and confirmed what we knew -or suspected- all along, but I like the fact that they had the balls to go ahead and made it public and accessible for everyone, knowing what will happen next, specially to Assange. And that's why me sword's by his side.[/QUOTE] Except I don't have a problem with it and the leak has damaged the efficacy of the government. Since America is the best country in the world, the net result is that the world will become worse as America is less successful in stopping dictators from starting wars, promoting civil rights in other countries, defusing volatile international situations, etc.
Oh, fucking damn it.
[QUOTE=Athena;26553602]So your argument for "its dangerous" is a slippery slope and a completely unrelated bill (that deals with copyright infringement of all things)[/QUOTE] I didn't say that ACTA came from that, but I'm saying it would have been a matter of time before something similar came along if he wasn't arrested because they're not just going to sit by and let it continue.
[QUOTE=ThatHippyMan;26553475]So you're still saying "BAD STUFF WILL HAPPEN SOMEHOW BECAUSE PEOPLE NEED TO STAY IGNORANT?"[/QUOTE] I'm not saying people need to stay ignorant, I'm saying that if this information is going to be released we need to convince the government to do it for us, not let fringe crazies get their hands on it and start passing it out on street corners. We should strive for a more honest government, not a less secretive one. They're very different things. As for "but you haven't said anything but bad stuff", I don't know how much more obvious I can make it. If WikiLeaks themselves have purposely censored particularly dangerous parts of the documents they've released, surely you can infer that if these documents were to be released wholesale, terrorists or otherwise bad-intentioned groups could use it to their advantage to either selectively paint the rest of the world in a bad light and persuade people that they're the good guys, or find the weaknesses in the defense systems of the entire world and exploit them. (Again, not necessarily what they've currently released, but what may be released as a result of the incident.)
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26553591]Except they've made no tangible points beyond "but you say 'bad things' and information should be free", meaning I don't have a lot to argue with. Would you prefer that I delete that neckbead statement? Would it make me that much better?[/QUOTE] We've made real statements, such as... [quote]Call me crazy, but I like to see how these groaning bureaucracies manage to exert their will. [/quote] [quote]If we don't live in a conspiracy movie, then what's the harm in releasing documents? [/quote] [quote]We'll have ten watergates if we support this kind of thing.[/quote] [quote]He's a modern day hero, he's effectively fighting for free speech. [/quote] The statement of us saying saying "but you say 'bad things' and information should be free" is a moot point. We were rebutting you, not proposing actual benefits. [editline]7th December 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=postmanX3;26553697]I'm not saying people need to stay ignorant, I'm saying that if this information is going to be released we need to convince the government to do it for us, not let fringe crazies get their hands on it and start passing it out on street corners. We should strive for a more honest government, not a less secretive one. They're very different things. As for "but you haven't said anything but bad stuff", I don't know how much more obvious I can make it. If WikiLeaks themselves have purposely censored particularly dangerous parts of the documents they've released, surely you can infer that if these documents were to be released wholesale, terrorists or otherwise bad-intentioned groups could use it to their advantage to either selectively paint the rest of the world in a bad light and persuade people that they're the good guys, or find the weaknesses in the defense systems of the entire world and exploit them. (Again, not necessarily what they've currently released, but what may be released as a result of the incident.)[/QUOTE] Yes, you are still saying that people should stay ignorant.
[QUOTE=Athena;26553627]Who is "they"? You're generalizing everyone on the opposing side as if everyone argues like that[/QUOTE] Excuse me, ThatHippyMan. Now are you going to counter-argue me, or continue nitpicking my statements?
[QUOTE=TH89;26553663]Except I don't have a problem with it and the leak has damaged the efficacy of the government. Since America is the best country in the world, the net result is that the world will become worse.[/QUOTE] Hold on for just a second here :crossarms: Define "best".
[quote]He's a modern day hero, he's effectively fighting for free speech.[/quote] If someone hacked into your email and posted everything you ever wrote, would that be free speech?
Also, if your "defense system" can be destroyed by a few leaks, you have a terrible defense system. [editline]7th December 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=TH89;26553717]If someone hacked into your email and posted everything you ever wrote, would that be free speech?[/QUOTE] No. Then again, my emails do not influence the entire world, and my emails are not payed for by people who serve me.
[QUOTE=ThatHippyMan;26553703]Yes, you are still saying that people should stay ignorant.[/QUOTE] I really fucking wish we still had the "Bad Reading" rating.
[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;26553716]Hold on for just a second here :crossarms: Define "best".[/QUOTE] That was a joke. But America does do a lot of important things, like pressuring its allies not to commit human rights atrocities, preventing wars from starting, stopping trade disputes that could lead to economic disasters, famines, etc. The leaks give the American government less leverage with which to do those things.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26553713]Excuse me, ThatHippyMan. Now are you going to counter-argue me, or continue nitpicking my statements?[/QUOTE] You mean like you've been doing to the opposing side? No, I wouldn't sink that low. I will, however, continue to post rebuttals.
[QUOTE=ThatHippyMan;26553727]Also, if your "defense system" can be destroyed by a few leaks, you have a terrible defense system.[/QUOTE] I'm not talking about "a few leaks." Please read. [QUOTE=ThatHippyMan;26553758]You mean like you've been doing to the opposing side? No, I wouldn't sink that low. I will, however, continue to post a single rebuttal.[/QUOTE] Fixed.
[QUOTE=ThatHippyMan;26553727]No. Then again, my emails do not influence the entire world, and my emails are not payed for by people who serve me.[/QUOTE] It's not free speech either way. I think what you mean is government transparency.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26553743]I really fucking wish we still had the "Bad Reading" rating.[/QUOTE] I do, too. You obviously cannot read what you're writing.
[QUOTE=TH89;26553748]That was a joke.[/QUOTE] Oh ok... you almost had me going :v: On a more serious note, I agree.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;26553761]I'm not talking about "a few leaks." Please read. Fixed.[/QUOTE] Because a single rebuttal is all that is needed.
[QUOTE=ThatHippyMan;26553774]I do, too. You obviously cannot read what you're writing.[/QUOTE] Then tell me, what am I writing? I am clearly too dumb and single-minded to tell myself.
Explain to me this. How would people knowing this leaked stuff ever BENEFIT ANYONE? Like I said, the only effect of this in the long run is an international mess.
[QUOTE=Meller Yeller;26553820]Explain to me this. How would people knowing this leaked stuff ever BENEFIT ANYONE? Like I said, the only effect of this in the long run is an international mess.[/QUOTE] Things will always get worse before they get any better.
[QUOTE=Meller Yeller;26553820]Explain to me this. How would people knowing this leaked stuff ever BENEFIT ANYONE? Like I said, the only effect of this in the long run is an international mess.[/QUOTE] [url]http://sowhyiswikileaksagoodthingagain.com/[/url] Click through that for a minute, I'm lazy at the moment.
[QUOTE=Nerts;26553951][url]http://sowhyiswikileaksagoodthingagain.com/[/url] Click through that for a minute, I'm lazy at the moment.[/QUOTE] I'm not persuaded
[QUOTE=Nerts;26553951][url]http://sowhyiswikileaksagoodthingagain.com/[/url] Click through that for a minute, I'm lazy at the moment.[/QUOTE] Pretty much everything I'm seeing is about US soldiers killing civilians in Iraq which isn't a surprise to anyone and won't change how they decide to do things in the future. This is all showing things that people have done wrong, but that doesn't explain how it will help us in the future.
[QUOTE=Nerts;26553951][url]http://sowhyiswikileaksagoodthingagain.com/[/url] Click through that for a minute, I'm lazy at the moment.[/QUOTE] You could make one of these for Saddam Hussein and put all the good things about him, like "he promoted secularism," "he maintained stability and rule of law," but it wouldn't mean Saddam Hussein was actually good.
[QUOTE=Meller Yeller;26553820]Explain to me this. How would people knowing this leaked stuff ever BENEFIT ANYONE? Like I said, the only effect of this in the long run is an international mess.[/QUOTE] Because these documents are the truth. And because the US is trying to suppress it so seriously. Someone's releasing evidence that shows the US is committing crimes, and trying to silence anyone who speaks up about it. That's a huge fucking deal. Yes, a lot of documents are fluff - but they don't pick what gets leaked to them, or what to post out of what they get - they post all of it.
[QUOTE=Athena;26554138]Because these documents are the truth. And because the US is trying to suppress it so seriously. Someone's releasing evidence that shows the US is committing crimes, and trying to silence anyone who speaks up about it. That's a huge fucking deal. Yes, a lot of documents are fluff - but they don't pick what gets leaked to them, or what to post out of what they get - they post all of it.[/QUOTE] [quote=PostmanX3]I'm not saying people need to stay ignorant, I'm saying that if this information is going to be released we need to convince the government to do it for us, not let fringe crazies get their hands on it and start passing it out on street corners. We should strive for a more honest government, not a less secretive one. They're very different things.[/quote]
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