• Feminists Everywhere React To Beyonce's Latest
    280 replies, posted
[QUOTE=person11;43252662]Well yeah I realize how dumb it is to try now, at least here. No matter how diplomatically I try to reason everything out without ever insulting anyone or making stuff up, nothing will change, at least nothing will change without waiting. The stuff I'm talking about is beyond the Facepunch's political spectrum, so far to the left it would not even be noticeable on the forum if it weren't for my ramblings.[/QUOTE] I did this: [url]http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-6.88&soc=-6.00[/url] Is that about as left as your ideas are?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43253104]i wanna address this too. i gotta ask, though: are you actually wanting to understand this viewpoint? it really isn't "pushing for divide" when you use a different way of framing culture or society. "masculinity" is a gender role of violence. it's violence by men against men. it's violence by men against women. this is the culture we live in now. women are particularly vulnerable to violence from men because not only are men encouraged towards violence, women are encouraged to be submissive. creating "safe spaces" doesn't create a divide or deepen one, it acknowledges that the divide is there and that human beings are at risk. the idea is you create safe spaces for women from men while you ALSO fight the culture that has shaped masculinity into a position of violent dominator. women won't need safe spaces from men when men are not told that violence is manly, but that's going to come at an indefinite time in the future. while violence is part of "manhood" in our culture, we need to protect people from the problems that "manhood" creates.[/QUOTE] It depends on what you mean by understanding the viewpoint. I comprehend it but I don't agree with it. I wouldn't go as far to say that our culture encourages men to be violent. Violence [I]is[/I] associated with masculinity, but masculinity is not a gender role of violence. Masculinity is associated with plenty of qualities such as confidence, courage, responsibility and respect. That includes respect towards women. If you want equality, don't create "safe spaces" for women to keep to while us men do the fighting. Let upstanding women voice their opinions too. I find the notion that we live in a culture where men are "violent dominators" absurd. The majority of men are no more violent than the majority of women.
[QUOTE=mobrockers;43253266]I did this: [url]http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-6.88&soc=-6.00[/url] Is that about as left as your ideas are?[/QUOTE] Oh god I am even further to the left than that [editline]20th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;43253104]i wanna address this too. i gotta ask, though: are you actually wanting to understand this viewpoint? it really isn't "pushing for divide" when you use a different way of framing culture or society. "masculinity" is a gender role of violence. it's violence by men against men. it's violence by men against women. this is the culture we live in now. women are particularly vulnerable to violence from men because not only are men encouraged towards violence, women are encouraged to be submissive. creating "safe spaces" doesn't create a divide or deepen one, it acknowledges that the divide is there and that human beings are at risk. the idea is you create safe spaces for women from men while you ALSO fight the culture that has shaped masculinity into a position of violent dominator. women won't need safe spaces from men when men are not told that violence is manly, but that's going to come at an indefinite time in the future. while violence is part of "manhood" in our culture, we need to protect people from the problems that "manhood" creates. [editline]20th December 2013[/editline] that might be a different answer than the one person11 would provide, but it seems the most clear and simple to me.[/QUOTE] Safe spaces is a short term solution to help with the symptoms of a sick society, just like how social security and welfare are short term solutions to the ills of capitalism. In an idea society that has true equality, there would be no need for safe spaces because men would not be told by society to be violent to women. So my advocacy of this kind of separation is not a permanent solution, but a way to keep women safe until we can create a society without femicide. Does that make more sense?
[QUOTE=hexpunK;43251006]So, like, do you even understand the idea of oppression?[/QUOTE] Uhm I asked first (even though not directed at anyone in particular), what do you think about "Beyonce feminism"? She is not the best example of oppressed woman if you ask me...
[QUOTE=person11;43253572]Oh god I am even further to the left than that [editline]20th December 2013[/editline] Safe spaces is a short term solution to help with the symptoms of a sick society, just like how social security and welfare are short term solutions to the ills of capitalism. In an idea society that has true equality, there would be no need for safe spaces because men would not be told by society to be violent to women. So my advocacy of this kind of separation is not a permanent solution, but a way to keep women safe until we can create a society without femicide. Does that make more sense?[/QUOTE] Again, here we have the statement that society tells men to be violent to women. I think that's utter nonsense, so can either of you elaborate on how it does that and prove to me that men are as violent as you say? Also can you tell me what you mean by these almost contradictory statements posted about 15 minutes from each other? [QUOTE=person11;43252662]The stuff I'm talking about is beyond the Facepunch's political spectrum, so far to the left it would not even be noticeable on the forum if it weren't for my ramblings.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=person11;43252849]Facepunch is not as leftist and edgy as one may think[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Beerminator;43253636]Uhm I asked first (even though not directed at anyone in particular), what do you think about "Beyonce feminism"? She is not the best example of oppressed woman if you ask me...[/QUOTE] You don't even have to be a woman to be a feminist
Oh dear, I really thought OP had a breakthrough in shitstorm prevention... Well maybe he did, this is more about who is the craziest, most holier-than-thou and fanatical on an internet forum that originally was about a mod for a popular game. Let's just say you are all winners?
[QUOTE=Bread_Baron;43253684]Again, here we have the statement that society tells men to be violent to women. I think that's utter nonsense, so can either of you elaborate on how it does that and prove to me that men are as violent as you say? Also can you tell me what you mean by these almost contradictory statements posted about 15 minutes from each other?[/QUOTE] It's not contradictory, he's saying Facepunch isn't as left as he is.
[QUOTE=Beerminator;43253636]Uhm I asked first (even though not directed at anyone in particular), what do you think about "Beyonce feminism"? She is not the best example of oppressed woman if you ask me...[/QUOTE] She's not oppressed in terms of wealth or anything like that since she is rich and famous, but if you look at how people talk about her in the media compared to men or compared to white women, you'll see much more skepticism about her every action. Obviously that is not as bad as what most women face, but even a rich and famous person from an oppressed group will feel some pain from it. And as far as I can tell, she is the best celebrity to discuss feminism, unless I am forgetting about others. [editline]20th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=mobrockers;43253753]It's not contradictory, he's saying Facepunch isn't as left as he is.[/QUOTE] Yeah, I do admit that facepunch is probably to the left of the average American, but I am farther to the left of facepunch's or USA's political spectrums.
[QUOTE=Pelican;43250782]dont forget milkandcookie, yawmwen, lachzor and person11 oh and jeep-eep[/QUOTE] why would i come in and shit up a thread that is [I]positive[/I] about feminism? i only argue in feminism threads when the other side is making hilariously awful and insulting generalizations, is flat out wrong (feminism isn't equal rights!), threads where people are laughing their asses off making fun of somebody for no good reason, or something else like that. this thread is great. i love beyonce.
[QUOTE=person11;43253572]Oh god I am even further to the left than that [editline]20th December 2013[/editline] Safe spaces is a short term solution to help with the symptoms of a sick society, just like how social security and welfare are short term solutions to the ills of capitalism. In an idea society that has true equality, there would be no need for safe spaces because men would not be told by society to be violent to women. So my advocacy of this kind of separation is not a permanent solution, but a way to keep women safe until we can create a society without femicide. Does that make more sense?[/QUOTE] If you would stop being so extreme in your arguments perhaps people would sometimes listen to you. The reason Facepunch doesn't like you or thisispain has nothing to do with Facepunch not being leftist enough and has everything to do with the way you bring your points. You're making it seem like every man is brought up to hate women and wants to cause them pain, you're making it seem like all women need to be locked up from all men, because all men are violent and want to harm women. It's not what you mean, I hope, but you're not going to convince anyone the way you guys are always talking. Btw I'm pretty sure there already are safe houses for abused women, at least there are where I live.
[QUOTE=person11;43253792]I am farther to the left of facepunch's or USA's political spectrums.[/QUOTE] Yeah, we've noticed
[QUOTE=person11;43253792]She's not oppressed in terms of wealth or anything like that since she is rich and famous, but if you look at how people talk about her in the media compared to men or compared to white women, you'll see much more skepticism about her every action. Obviously that is not as bad as what most women face, but even a rich and famous person from an oppressed group will feel some pain from it. And as far as I can tell, she is the best celebrity to discuss feminism, unless I am forgetting about others. [editline]20th December 2013[/editline] Yeah, I do admit that facepunch is probably to the left of the average American, but I am farther to the left of facepunch's or USA's political spectrums.[/QUOTE] The USA has no left. Only right, far right, and batshit insane right.
[QUOTE=mobrockers;43253870]The USA has no left. Only right, far right, and batshit insane right.[/QUOTE] Exactly, the fact I am on the left at all makes me farther to the left than the entire US political spectrum.
[QUOTE=Bread_Baron;43253359]It depends on what you mean by understanding the viewpoint. I comprehend it but I don't agree with it. I wouldn't go as far to say that our culture encourages men to be violent. Violence [I]is[/I] associated with masculinity, but masculinity is not a gender role of violence. Masculinity is associated with plenty of qualities such as confidence, courage, responsibility and respect. That includes respect towards women. If you want equality, don't create "safe spaces" for women to keep to while us men do the fighting. Let upstanding women voice their opinions too. I find the notion that we live in a culture where men are "violent dominators" absurd. The majority of men are no more violent than the majority of women.[/QUOTE] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3exzMPT4nGI[/media]
I was like "i dig beyonce i think she could be a good role model for women out there" and instead i had to read about how bad i am apparently ??? how is that relevant again??? uhm mods? mods? hello? [QUOTE=BrickInHead;43251262] the problem with this is that the song is trying to navigate "sexiness" which is extremely complicated. sexiness is a construct that tends to disempower a lot of women in multiple ways - by defining their worth by it, and by having such a restrictive set of criteria that makes a woman sexy. so if you're sexy, that's your defining characteristic. if you're not sexy to the high standard, that will negatively affect people's opinion of you. i think the intent of the song is to sort of reclaim sex for women as an absolute and to bring it to an equal footing with men, but there's a problem with the way that society perceives male sex in the first place anyway so it's not exactly productive[/QUOTE] unfortunately as much as a role model beyonce might be, she still has to fit herself into a paradigm created for her by the music industry. beyonce is "sexy", but she's already sexy anyway. women who arent "sexy" either dont feel any part of this song or they have to buy into the idea that "everyone is sexy". [editline]20th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=mobrockers;43253863]If you would stop being so extreme in your arguments perhaps people would sometimes listen to you. The reason Facepunch doesn't like you or thisispain has nothing to do with Facepunch not being leftist enough and has everything to do with the way you bring your points. [/QUOTE] oh my god who cares
[QUOTE=person11;43253900]Exactly, the fact I am on the left at all makes me farther to the left than the entire US political spectrum.[/QUOTE] The Netherlands isn't nearly as left as I'd like it to be but the idea that the US has a left side is laughable compared to most European countries.
[QUOTE=Bread_Baron;43253359] I wouldn't go as far to say that our culture encourages men to be violent. Violence [I]is[/I] associated with masculinity, but masculinity is not a gender role of violence. Masculinity is associated with plenty of qualities such as confidence, courage, responsibility and respect. That includes respect towards women. If you want equality, don't create "safe spaces" for women to keep to while us men do the fighting. Let upstanding women voice their opinions too. I find the notion that we live in a culture where men are "violent dominators" absurd. The majority of men are no more violent than the majority of women.[/QUOTE] youre mistaking "what should" and "what is". masculinity is flexible and to say its one specific thing doesn't make a lot of sense. confidence, courage, responsibility, even respect could easily fit into a justification for violence. machismo culture exists, so does shame culture and they all fit into a cycle of violence.
[QUOTE=thisispain;43253926]I was like "i dig beyonce i think she could be a good role model for women out there" and instead i had to read about how bad i am apparently ??? how is that relevant again??? uhm mods? mods? hello? unfortunately as much as a role model beyonce might be, she still has to fit herself into a paradigm created for her by the music industry. beyonce is "sexy", but she's already sexy anyway. women who arent "sexy" either dont feel any part of this song or they have to buy into the idea that "everyone is sexy". [editline]20th December 2013[/editline] oh my god who cares[/QUOTE] Um I do? I like to agree with a lot of your points but you always bring it in such a way that I have to stand against you.
[QUOTE=mobrockers;43253863]If you would stop being so extreme in your arguments perhaps people would sometimes listen to you. The reason Facepunch doesn't like you or thisispain has nothing to do with Facepunch not being leftist enough and has everything to do with the way you bring your points. You're making it seem like every man is brought up to hate women and wants to cause them pain, you're making it seem like all women need to be locked up from all men, because all men are violent and want to harm women. It's not what you mean, I hope, but you're not going to convince anyone the way you guys are always talking. Btw I'm pretty sure there already are safe houses for abused women, at least there are where I live.[/QUOTE] I am not saying its every guy doing this, but that every guy is socialized to. And when half the population is taught by a society's media, ideals, culture, religion, etc., to be violent to women, even if a good portion of that half the population does not listen, there will be a lot more violence towards women. It sounds insane but the way our society is structured tells men that a part of their role as men is to be violent towards women, obviously none of this is conscious. Everyone who lives in that society, unless completely cut off from others, will be exposed to this. When you talk about the aggregate of all communication between all people in a society, talking about everyone in a single social group is not that strange.
Beyonce isn't the best role model for women though, BrickInHead nailed it on page 2.
[QUOTE=mobrockers;43253990]Um I do? I like to agree with a lot of your points but you always bring it in such a way that I have to stand against you.[/QUOTE] i dont care, no one cares, stop posting this if you really MUST post about me, if you cannot stop yourself from shitposting in threads about me then do it in PM or Steam and try having a conversation with me instead of just posting on a internet forum about how bad i am if you cant handle this very simple request then add me to your ignore list and never mention me again thanks a lot [i]think thats a pretty fair REQUEST![/i] [editline]20th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Bread_Baron;43254014]Beyonce isn't the best role model for women though, BrickInHead nailed it on page 2.[/QUOTE] is there a perfect role model for women?
[QUOTE=thisispain;43254025]i dont care, no one cares, stop posting this if you really MUST post about me, if you cannot stop yourself from shitposting in threads about me then do it in PM or Steam and try having a conversation with me instead of just posting on a internet forum about how bad i am if you cant handle this very simple request then add me to your ignore list and never mention me again thanks a lot[/QUOTE] I'm too insecure to talk to you directly, sorry. I need facepunch's safety. I'm not trying to be funny, why are you guys rating me funny.
This thread is getting uncomfortable
[QUOTE=person11;43254000]I am not saying its every guy doing this, but that every guy is socialized to. And when half the population is taught by a society's media, ideals, culture, religion, etc., to be violent to women, even if a good portion of that half the population does not listen, there will be a lot more violence towards women. It sounds insane but the way our society is structured tells men that a part of their role as men is to be violent towards women, obviously none of this is conscious. Everyone who lives in that society, unless completely cut off from others, will be exposed to this. When you talk about the aggregate of all communication between all people in a society, talking about everyone in a single social group is not that strange.[/QUOTE] Okay, I'll trust you on that then. Just don't understand how that works, I thought men were supposed to take care of women, not hurt them.
[QUOTE=thisispain;43253976]youre mistaking "what should" and "what is". masculinity is flexible and to say its one specific thing doesn't make a lot of sense. confidence, courage, responsibility, even respect could easily fit into a justification for violence. machismo culture exists, so does shame culture and they all fit into a cycle of violence.[/QUOTE] I agree that the term masculinity is very flexible, that's why I said those terms are associated with it and not defining features. Saying that masculinity equals violence however is just absurd because, in your own words, "masculinity is flexible and to say its one specific thing doesn't make a lot of sense".
Hey guys I'm pretty tired today but I just wanted to pop in and say hello I'll be on next week though, and I'll be excited to say the exact same things we do every week ciao!
[QUOTE=Agoat;43254102]Hey guys I'm pretty tired today but I just wanted to pop in and say hello I'll be on next week though, and I'll be excited to say the exact same things we do every week ciao![/QUOTE] I should have done this during finals "Hey, I see I got 400 dumbs on my post in this Lulu thread, I will be back after finals, seeya!"
[QUOTE=thisispain;43254025]i dont care, no one cares, stop posting this if you really MUST post about me, if you cannot stop yourself from shitposting in threads about me then do it in PM or Steam and try having a conversation with me instead of just posting on a internet forum about how bad i am if you cant handle this very simple request then add me to your ignore list and never mention me again thanks a lot [i]think thats a pretty fair REQUEST![/i] [editline]20th December 2013[/editline] is there a perfect role model for women?[/QUOTE] Not that I can think of from the top of my head but I'm sure there's plenty better than Beyonce. The lyrics "bow down bitches" are far from ideal.
[QUOTE=mobrockers;43254096]Okay, I'll trust you on that then. Just don't understand how that works, I thought men were supposed to take care of women, not hurt them.[/QUOTE] Taking care of them is benevolent sexism anyway, because that's saying they aren't capable of taking care of themselves and need men's protection to do so. Traditional gender roles are correlated with violence and benevolent sexism
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