• Feminists Everywhere React To Beyonce's Latest
    280 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Bread_Baron;43254101]I agree that the term masculinity is very flexible, that's why I said those terms are associated with it and not defining features. Saying that masculinity equals violence however is just absurd because, in your own words, "masculinity is flexible and to say its one specific thing doesn't make a lot of sense".[/QUOTE] well im not saying it equals violence, im saying that masculinity fits into a cycle of violence because historically we've associated male domination with power think about historically the concept of machismo. you can say "well that was history, this is now", but you can't disassociate these "ghosts" from present day. they have an importance, they have an impact. look at threads about someone getting raped. often you'll see some people give a very violent response, which id argue is something ingrained within the way we interact. no-one tells us to be violent yet in our interaction we jump to that. that is "RADICAL" feminism. radical feminism seeks to change the structure of our behavior to one thats more open for women and ultimately better for men. radical feminists feel that our behavior should change on a more fundamental level, and that we should discard the violence from the past. if you think masculinity isnt associated with violence, then that's great and i hope you can maintain such an excellent conception of masculinity. (srs) however, in a lot of parts of the world masculinity is associated with the explicit and implicit violence of male power structure. do you understand that's what someone means when they say patriarchy as well? it's the way we express power and dominance through violence that is the problem
[QUOTE=mobrockers;43254096]Okay, I'll trust you on that then. Just don't understand how that works, I thought men were supposed to take care of women, not hurt them.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Bread_Baron;43254101]I agree that the term masculinity is very flexible, that's why I said those terms are associated with it and not defining features. Saying that masculinity equals violence however is just absurd because, in your own words, "masculinity is flexible and to say its one specific thing doesn't make a lot of sense".[/QUOTE] The problem is that masculinity is a social construct. The very concepts of masculinity and femininity are tools to promote social roles that harm women (and also men to some degree). All sorts of good and bad actions can be associated with these social constructs. The solution is to get rid of the concepts of masculinity and femininity altogether.
[QUOTE=Bread_Baron;43254136]Not that I can think of from the top of my head but I'm sure there's plenty better than Beyonce. The lyrics "bow down bitches" are far from ideal.[/QUOTE] role models arent about better or worse. its about cultural schema we can identify with. don't think its strange that women who aren't white identify with beyonce. she's a powerful black woman with huge impact and maintains her femininity as well. this is another clash between academic critical feminism (historically associated with middle class white women) and "grass-roots" feminism.
[QUOTE=Trogdon;43254178]Taking care of them is benevolent sexism anyway, because that's saying they aren't capable of taking care of themselves and need men's protection to do so. Traditional gender roles are correlated with violence and benevolent sexism[/QUOTE] I know that. It just feels so good to take care of someone. [editline]20th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=person11;43254197]The problem is that masculinity is a social construct. The very concepts of masculinity and femininity are tools to promote social roles that harm women (and also men to some degree). All sorts of good and bad actions can be associated with these social constructs. The solution is to get rid of the concepts of masculinity and femininity altogether.[/QUOTE] I thought it was accepted that men and women do differ in some ways physically and psychologically. I understand the harmful things are results of gender roles, but how do we get rid of them completely if men and women aren't really the same.
Seriously guys, sorry to keep banging on about this, but this is awesome. All the most volatile members of SH and no actual flaming, mudslinging, name calling in sight, especially with such a hot topic. Only reasonable, level headed discussion with informative and well thought out posts. Amazing! There might be hope for Facepunch yet. Well not really, I'm sure it'll all be back to shit in a couple of days, but still nice to see some mature discussion for a change.
[QUOTE=person11;43254197]The problem is that masculinity is a social construct. The very concepts of masculinity and femininity are tools to promote social roles that harm women (and also men to some degree). All sorts of good and bad actions can be associated with these social constructs. The solution is to get rid of the concepts of masculinity and femininity altogether.[/QUOTE] i dont know if thats the solution perse. cultural schema such as masculinity and femininity will exist as long as we make a cultural separation of male and female. i dont think most feminists would feel that they'd want those separations gone. [editline]20th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Fetret;43254290]Seriously guys, sorry to keep banging on about this, but this is awesome. All the most volatile members of SH and no actual flaming, mudslinging, name calling in sight, especially with such a hot topic. Only reasonable, level headed discussion with informative and well thought out posts. Amazing! There might be hope for Facepunch yet. Well not really, I'm sure it'll all be back to shit in a couple of days, but still nice to see some mature discussion for a change.[/QUOTE] oh my god stop
[QUOTE=thisispain;43254291] [editline]20th December 2013[/editline] oh my god shut up[/QUOTE] Aaaaand we're back!
[QUOTE=mobrockers;43254234] I thought it was accepted that men and women do differ in some ways physically and psychologically. I understand the harmful things are results of gender roles, but how do we get rid of them completely if men and women aren't really the same.[/QUOTE] the problem is free agency. to say women and men "arent really the same" removes the free agency. how about we just have men and women, and for each woman that isn't the same we can say "oh look at that". it's the pretense that sucks
and we're off
it's over before it's begun
[QUOTE=Pelican;43250782]dont forget milkandcookie, yawmwen, lachzor and person11 oh and jeep-eep[/QUOTE] Don't you just harass people and leave smart-ass remarks that only put others down?
[QUOTE=Heroku;43250756]as long as thisispain isn't here this can be a small shitstorm[/QUOTE] The prophecy is real
[QUOTE=thisispain;43254317]the problem is free agency. to say women and men "arent really the same" removes the free agency. how about we just have men and women, and for each woman that isn't the same we can say "oh look at that". it's the pretense that sucks[/QUOTE] I don't know what free agency is but I think I know what you're saying and I get your point.
From the desk of This is "Slizmaster69" Pain, Dear Facepunch forum viewer, thank you for entering this thread. You might notice many posts that offer nothing to the conversation, posts that should not have been made in our Dear Christian Union. Please accept my apologies, on good will of course, that I have only the best intentions for your forum experience. Always yours, t-pain
[QUOTE=thisispain;43254317]the problem is free agency. to say women and men "arent really the same" removes the free agency. how about we just have men and women, and for each woman that isn't the same we can say "oh look at that". it's the pretense that sucks[/QUOTE] What exactly do you mean by free agency? I mean apart from the cultural and social roles ingrained related to sex (which I agree is not something to be proud of, but at the same time very difficult to change. Even when you are aware of such conditioning), what about the physical differences? Can you explain what you mean by "for each woman that isn't the same we can say "oh look at that"." Seriously, because for all your faults you actually like to state your points quite clearly and this is something I would like to hear/learn more about.
listening to the album now, I like it :)
[QUOTE=mobrockers;43254396]I don't know what free agency is but I think I know what you're saying and I get your point.[/QUOTE] its a christian concept actually. it means the ability to do sin, and be forgiven. i argue that this is the most important part of our western civilisation. the idea that we can do sin and be forgiven if we chose so. to me saying that a woman and a man arent really the same takes away their ability to basically "sin". women and men should be allowed to be the same if they chose so, or if they chose not to (barring any deterministic argument, lets not get into that rn).
[QUOTE=Ownederd;43254357]Don't you just harass people and leave smart-ass remarks that only put others down?[/QUOTE] pot, meet kettle.
[QUOTE=Fetret;43254424]What exactly do you mean by free agency? I mean apart from the cultural and social roles ingrained related to sex (which I agree is not something to be proud of, but at the same time very difficult to change. Even when you are aware of such conditioning), what about the physical differences? Can you explain what you mean by "for each woman that isn't the same we can say "oh look at that"." Seriously, because for all your faults you actually like to state your points quite clearly and this is something I would like to hear/learn more about.[/QUOTE] I think what he saying is this: All the masculine males aren't going to want to stop being masculine and all the feminine females aren't going to want to stop being feminine. Therefore, it might be easier to not try and get rid of masculinity and femininity and just learn to accept males and females who move away from them.
oh boy I doubt when the OP ironically said "Ready, [b]Fight[/b]" he actually thought you dicknipples would actually start arguing over everything possible
[QUOTE=thisispain;43254446]its a christian concept actually. it means the ability to do sin, and be forgiven. i argue that this is the most important part of our western civilisation. the idea that we can do sin and be forgiven if we chose so. to me saying that a woman and a man arent really the same takes away their ability to basically "sin". women and men should be allowed to be the same if they chose so, or if they chose not to (barring any deterministic argument, lets not get into that rn).[/QUOTE] I don't think we can do that honestly, we love grouping too much not to take the opportunity to separate the largest group, men and women, by their general assumed attributes.
[QUOTE=Cabbage;43254488]oh boy I doubt when the OP ironically said "Ready, [b]Fight[/b]" he actually thought you dicknipples would actually start arguing over everything possible[/QUOTE] he must not have been in one of these threads ever then because that's effectively what happens in all of them
[QUOTE=Ownederd;43254357]Don't you just harass people and leave smart-ass remarks that only put others down?[/QUOTE] Might as well fight fire with fire :^)
[QUOTE=Fetret;43254424]What exactly do you mean by free agency? I mean apart from the cultural and social roles ingrained related to sex (which I agree is not something to be proud of, but at the same time very difficult to change. Even when you are aware of such conditioning), what about the physical differences? Can you explain what you mean by "for each woman that isn't the same we can say "oh look at that"." Seriously, because for all your faults you actually like to state your points quite clearly and this is something I would like to hear/learn more about.[/QUOTE] physical differences are something that vary a lot, and are influenced by cultural and social roles if you'd care to read some fantastic psychological biology and evolutionary biology literature. our physical difference are easily changed, and in a society where we want to tolerate transgender people we have to create a far better system of interaction and understanding our physical differences. if a woman is different from a man or another women then that's great and you could comment as positively or as negatively as you'd like, but i don't think a woman that isn't that different from a man should be negatively treated, and they are. we have a lot of prejudices about women who do not fit into a feminine cultural schema. just look at the hysteria in lesbian discourse! in a society where a woman loving a woman can only fit one small, practically pornographic, schema, lesbians feel completely outside of what modern culture could call a stable healthy relationship. this has real consequences for them. thats how id explain the whole pansexual, asexual, panromantic thing that is the vogue in modern sex discourse. it's a reactionary response to rigid sexuality. *i fall back; locks of beautiful hair follow me* "for all my faults ?"
[QUOTE=thisispain;43254538]physical differences are something that vary a lot, and are influenced by cultural and social roles if you'd care to read some fantastic psychological biology and evolutionary biology literature. our physical difference are easily changed, and in a society where we want to tolerate transgender people we have to create a far better system of interaction and understanding our physical differences. if a woman is different from a man or another women then that's great and you could comment as positively or as negatively as you'd like, but i don't think a woman that isn't that different from a man should be negatively treated, and they are. we have a lot of prejudices about women who do not fit into a feminine cultural schema. just look at the hysteria in lesbian discourse! in a society where a woman loving a woman can only fit one small, practically pornographic, schema, lesbians feel completely outside of what modern culture could call a stable healthy relationship. this has real consequences for them. thats how id explain the whole pansexual, asexual, panromantic thing that is the vogue in modern sex discourse. it's a reactionary response to rigid sexuality. *i fall back; locks of beautiful hair follow me* "for all my faults ?"[/QUOTE] I like lesbian porn :c Normal porn is often so violent, I don't like it. Lesbian porn is often more gentle.
[QUOTE=mobrockers;43254234]I know that. It just feels so good to take care of someone. [editline]20th December 2013[/editline] I thought it was accepted that men and women do differ in some ways physically and psychologically. I understand the harmful things are results of gender roles, but how do we get rid of them completely if men and women aren't really the same.[/QUOTE] By destroying all perceived differences and keeping only the physical ones. I've heard radical feminists say that an ideal society would make it so your sex would only be relevant to your doctor and the person you have sex with or having a kid. Meaning it would be completely inconsequential any other time.
[QUOTE=Cabbage;43254488]oh boy I doubt when the OP ironically said "Ready, [b]Fight[/b]" he actually thought you dicknipples would actually start arguing over everything possible[/QUOTE] Dear Facepunch forum viewer, thank you so much for getting back to me! Yes, I can concede that, and I will take it as a compliment. Thank you for your sympathy and recognition in that I am trying my best to have a conversation which is so rudely interrupted by the persons or otherwise that you have mentioned. I can only, in good faith, assume they simply just don't understand their own actions. liebe fur alle, t-pain
[QUOTE=Stents*;43254477]I think what he saying is this: All the masculine males aren't going to want to stop being masculine and all the feminine females aren't going to want to stop being feminine. Therefore, it might be easier to not try and get rid of masculinity and femininity and just learn to except males and females who move away from them.[/QUOTE] The people who continue to respect those social roles would not be called masculine or feminine. A girl could like dresses and it would not be considered feminine because the concept would not exist. There would be no force determining what behaviors are the most acceptable based on sex.
[QUOTE=mobrockers;43254512]I don't think we can do that honestly, we love grouping too much not to take the opportunity to separate the largest group, men and women, by their general assumed attributes.[/QUOTE] Well yes, but even when you consider how much those assumed attributes have changed over the last 50 years let alone the past thousands, it is easy to see how difficult it is to predict the future of change (wow that was one fuck up of a sentence). While I guess on a purely physiological basis things can never be equal or same, for everything else anything goes.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;43254144]oh boy here we go with the SANIUS SQUAD AGAEN1![/QUOTE] please don't insult the sainus squad, we've lost a lot of good members this year. verdiadi(?), aspen, and dr gestapo. rip.
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