California police worked with neo-Nazis to pursue 'anti-racist' activists, documents show - Polidicks

[QUOTE]California police investigating a violent white nationalist event worked with white supremacists in an effort to identify counter-protesters and sought the prosecution of activists with “anti-racist” beliefs, court documents show. The records, which also showed officers expressing sympathy with white supremacists and trying to protect a neo-Nazi organizer’s identity, were included in a court briefing from three anti-fascist activists who were charged with felonies after protesting at a Sacramento rally. The defendants were urging a judge to dismiss their case and accused California police and prosecutors of a “cover-up and collusion with the fascists”. ---- In one phone call with Doug McCormack, identified by police as the TWP affiliate who acquired the permit for the Sacramento rally, CHP investigator Donovan Ayres warned him that police might have to release his name in response to a public records requests. The officer said he would try to protect McCormack. “I’m gonna suggest that we hold that or redact your name or something until this gets resolved,” Ayres told McCormack, adding that he didn’t know who had requested records of the permit and noting, “If I did, I would tell you.” Ayres’s reports noted that McCormack was armed at the rally with a knife. The officer’s write-up about an African American anti-fascist activist included a photo of him at the hospital after the rally and noted that he had been stabbed in the abdomen, chest and hand. Ayres, however, treated the protester like a suspect in the investigation. The police investigator recommended the man be charged with 11 offenses, including disturbing the peace, conspiracy, assault, unlawful assembly and wearing a mask to evade police. As evidence, Ayres provided Facebook photos of the man holding up his fist. The officer wrote that the man’s “Black Power salute” and his “support for anti-racist activism” demonstrated his “intent and motivation to violate the civil rights” of the neo-Nazi group. He was ultimately not charged.[/QUOTE] [URL="https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/09/california-police-white-supremacists-counter-protest?CMP=edit_2221"]Source[/URL] So what do we do about nazis when the cops are nazis, too? [URL="https://theintercept.com/2017/01/31/the-fbi-has-quietly-investigated-white-supremacist-infiltration-of-law-enforcement/"]Bonus long-ass article from The Intercept[/URL] regarding FBI investigation into white supremacist infiltration of law enforcement (Not sure how well The Intercept is received here, I don't see it very often)

[url]https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-intercept/[/url] [quote] The Intercept - Left Center Bias These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes) to favor liberal causes. These sources are generally trustworthy for information, but may require further investigation. See all Left-Center sources. Factual Reporting: HIGH [/quote] They're alright imo.

[QUOTE]his “support for anti-racist activism” demonstrated his “intent and motivation to violate the civil rights” of the neo-Nazi group.[/QUOTE] Lol, what?

Considering the group identifies as “Antifa” but the article seems to be trying to avoid the association of that term, I feel like we’re not getting the full story here. Then again, California law enforcement tends to hate brown people, so it’s possible they could have been more lenient towards the nationalists. Overall though, I’m more willing to bet all parties involved were acting like shit. Protesters, cops, and nationalists.

[QUOTE=AlbertWesker;53120523]Considering the group identifies as “Antifa” but the article seems to be trying to avoid the association of that term, I feel like we’re not getting the full story here. Then again, California law enforcement tends to hate brown people, so it’s possible they could have been more lenient towards the nationalists. Overall though, I’m more willing to bet all parties involved were acting like shit. Protesters, cops, and nationalists.[/QUOTE] Yeah I'm with this guy - it's hard to pick a side between actual unambiguous honest-to-god nazis, white supremacist nazi sympathizer cops, and the people who showed up to protest the former two. All three of those parties sound equally morally repugnant.

[QUOTE=AlbertWesker;53120523]Considering the group identifies as “Antifa” but the article seems to be trying to avoid the association of that term, I feel like we’re not getting the full story here. Then again, California law enforcement tends to hate brown people, so it’s possible they could have been more lenient towards the nationalists. Overall though, I’m more willing to bet all parties involved were acting like shit. Protesters, cops, and nationalists.[/QUOTE] Presumably the article is quoting court documents referring to them as anti-fascists protesters instead of Antifa because Antifa (and BAMN for that matter) were minorities at the Sacramento riot. If there is no evidence that suggests that the dude who got stabbed was part of Antifa, surely it would be wrong of the press to identify him as such?

[QUOTE=FZE;53120565]Yeah I'm with this guy - it's hard to pick a side between actual unambiguous honest-to-god nazis, white supremacist nazi sympathizer cops, and the people who showed up to protest the former two. All three of those parties sound equally morally repugnant.[/QUOTE] I mean I can't speak for Wesker but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the point. I took the point to be more that the protesters that are facing charges could very well have done all the illegal things they're claiming are bullshit. If there was antifa presence at the rally the kinds of charges that are listed don't sound all that outlandish I also assumed when he said protesters he wasn't referring to the legitimately peaceful ones, just the ones that allegedly committed violent crimes

[QUOTE=AlbertWesker;53120523]Considering the group identifies as “Antifa” but the article seems to be trying to avoid the association of that term, I feel like we’re not getting the full story here. Then again, California law enforcement tends to hate brown people, so it’s possible they could have been more lenient towards the nationalists. Overall though, I’m more willing to bet all parties involved were acting like shit. Protesters, cops, and nationalists.[/QUOTE] You seem to be trying to avoid associating the "nationalists" with the term "Nazis", I feel like maybe you're not giving the full story here either. I think you're right to be skeptical, considering an FBI investigation is still underway as far as I understand the OP/article, but lets be honest here; it's a bit disingenuous to dismiss the story based on the journalist not jumping to a buzzword/group association without solid proof of said association.

[QUOTE=FZE;53120565]Yeah I'm with this guy - it's hard to pick a side between actual unambiguous honest-to-god nazis, white supremacist nazi sympathizer cops, and the people who showed up to protest the former two. All three of those parties sound equally morally repugnant.[/QUOTE] Antifa are extremists too, you know. Don't pretend they're good guys, they're not.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;53120658]Antifa are extremists too, you know. Don't pretend they're good guys, they're not.[/QUOTE] Being anti-facist and anti-racist myself I'd much rather identify and align antifa than a nazi, even if that makes me by association a bad guy. I'm also having a hard time disagreeing with violence against nazis / nazi sympathizers considering what their ideology is.

Nazis are worse than antifa, imo

[QUOTE=Lambeth;53120685]Nazis are worse than antifa, imo[/QUOTE] I'm not arguing otherwise, just that a paper that goes out of the way to mask the antifa affiliation may not be telling the entire story.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;53120692]I'm not arguing otherwise, just that a paper that goes out of the way to mask the antifa affiliation may not be telling the entire story.[/QUOTE] Considering what happened with BLM and how now any time you mention BLM, people react to the sensationalized aggressive format of small pockets of the movement instead of the MAJORITY of what BLM is, I think it is a great idea to refrain from possibly painting protesters with the term Antifa considering the same sort of affiliation.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;53120692]I'm not arguing otherwise, just that a paper that goes out of the way to mask the antifa affiliation may not be telling the entire story.[/QUOTE] I mean, it uses "anti-fascists" several times and features a picture that explicitly describes Antifa protestors. I don't really think they are going out of their way to mask anything.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;53120658]Antifa are extremists too, you know. Don't pretend they're good guys, they're not.[/QUOTE] It's not extremism to oppose fascism and turn up to fascist demonstrations to disrupt them. Regardless of what a particular Antifa protestor might believe, the only activity that Antifa organisations consistently do is counter-protest fascists. What they do seems to make them pretty good guys in my book.

[QUOTE=FZE;53120565]Yeah I'm with this guy - it's hard to pick a side between actual unambiguous honest-to-god nazis, white supremacist nazi sympathizer cops, and the people who showed up to protest the former two. All three of those parties sound equally morally repugnant.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Alec W;53120675]Being anti-facist and anti-racist myself I'd much rather identify and align antifa than a nazi, even if that makes me by association a bad guy. I'm also having a hard time disagreeing with violence against nazis / nazi sympathizers considering what their ideology is.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Lambeth;53120685]Nazis are worse than antifa, imo[/QUOTE] 'But the Nazis are worse' is probably the most blatant example of whataboutism I've ever seen. I swear to god, it's like this forum is completely incapable of holding multiple sides accountable to their actions without getting into a pissing match over who's worse. Lots of people are better than fucking white supremacists, that doesn't give antifa or anyone else a free pass to riot, commit violence, or any of the other serious charges mentioned in the article. If they can be substantiated in a court of law, 'but we're better than Nazis' isn't a defense.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;53120658]Antifa are extremists too, you know. Don't pretend they're good guys, they're not.[/QUOTE] Antifa is not a group or person, it's praxis. If you struggle with facists you're antifa.

[QUOTE=catbarf;53120741]'But the Nazis are worse' is probably the most blatant example of whataboutism I've ever seen. I swear to god, it's like this forum is completely incapable of holding multiple sides accountable to their actions without getting into a pissing match over who's worse. Lots of people are better than fucking white supremacists, that doesn't give antifa a free pass to riot and commit violence.[/QUOTE] No one ever said or thinks it is a free pass. There's a price to being destructive. [editline]9th February 2018[/editline] Sports games aren't a reason for americans to destroy property and riot but they catch way less flak than the destructive pockets of antifa.

[QUOTE=catbarf;53120741]'But the Nazis are worse' is probably the most blatant example of whataboutism I've ever seen. I swear to god, it's like this forum is completely incapable of holding multiple sides accountable to their actions without getting into a pissing match over who's worse. Lots of people are better than fucking white supremacists, that doesn't give antifa or anyone else a free pass to riot, commit violence, or any of the other serious charges mentioned in the article. If they can be substantiated in a court of law, 'but we're better than Nazis' isn't a defense.[/QUOTE] It's actually whataboutism to imply that any violence committed by Antifa in the defence of others or the disruption of fascists is equivalent to the hate speech and physical violence perpetrated by Nazis.

wouldn't be surprised if cops were working with the neo-nazis, not because i think the cops hold fascist beliefs but because they might see a common enemy in anti-fascist protestors, a non-insignificant number of whom hold anti-police sentiment. troubling, all the same

[QUOTE=Lambeth;53120685]Nazis are worse than antifa, imo[/QUOTE] i read this and i only see "nazis are worse than people who stand up to nazis, imo"

would also point out that physical personal violence differs from systematic, institutional violence. antifa use the former against nazis who use the latter against everyone who isn't white and falls below a particular level of conservativism; and as such these two forms of violence have their differences, at worst they're equal, at best they serve entirely different purposes on a holistic scale and being able to comprehend the difference between the two as well as the necessity of violence in certain cases is important. If a dude try to mug you, naturally you're gonna either run or fight back. Nazis are not trying to mug you so much as twist the entire system in their favour to allow for consistent, systematic violence, injustice and exploitation of everyone they deem their inferior. Dunno bout you guys but i think it's fairly open and shut and there's no moral high ground to be held by allowing fascism through passivity, and verbal debate with nazis is an impossibility due to their belief system that anyone who tries to take their power peacefully is a laughing stock / pussy who won't resort to the same ends as them in order to get what they want and is thus inferior which leaves only one possible course of debate which talks to them on terms they understand, which is with your fists and not your face.

[QUOTE=Alec W;53120754]No one ever said or thinks it is a free pass. There's a price to being destructive. [editline]9th February 2018[/editline] Sports games aren't a reason for americans to destroy property and riot but they catch way less flak than the destructive pockets of antifa.[/QUOTE] Sports riots aren't politically motivated.

[QUOTE=Rolond Returns;53120822]would also point out that physical personal violence differs from systematic, institutional violence. antifa use the former against nazis who use the latter against everyone who isn't white and falls below a particular level of conservativism; and as such these two forms of violence have their differences, at worst they're equal, at best they serve entirely different purposes on a holistic scale and being able to comprehend the difference between the two and the necessity of violence in certain cases. If a dude try to mug you, naturally you're gonna either run or fight back. Nazis are not trying to mug you so much as twist the entire system in their favour to allow for consistent, systematic violence, injustice and exploitation of everyone they deem their inferior. Dunno bout you guys but i think it's fairly open and shut and there's no moral high ground to be held by allowing fascism through passivity, and verbal debate with nazis is an impossibility due to their belief system that anyone who tries to take their power peacefully is a laughing stock / pussy who won't resort to the same ends as them in order to get what they want and is thus inferior which leaves only one possible course of debate which talks to them on terms they understand, which is with your fists and not your face.[/QUOTE] Which in turn translates to having police work with fucking nazis of all people because the only people breaking actual laws are those using their "fists". You complain about them using "systemic, institutional violence", but advocate for basically giving them the tools to do so. If I were them, I would bait as many Antifa people into violence as I could just to have them arrested, and there is no doubt in my mind that it's crossed their minds more than once. Violence isn't the answer for a multitude of moral reasons, but it's even worse when you think of it in a tactical reason.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;53120838]Which in turn translates to having police work with fucking nazis of all people because the only people breaking actual laws are those using their "fists". You complain about them using "systemic, institutional violence", but advocate for basically giving them the tools to do so. If I were them, I would bait as many Antifa people into violence as I could just to have them arrested, and there is no doubt in my mind that it's crossed their minds more than once. Violence isn't the answer for a multitude of moral reasons, but it's even worse when you think of it in a tactical reason.[/QUOTE] Nazis also commit violence at these rallies as well, and more often they're armed and the perpetrators. I don't know about you, but if I'm at a rally or something and some cunt comes up at me trying to hit me with a stick, I'd feel pretty justified in fighting back.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;53120838]Which in turn translates to having police work with fucking nazis of all people because the only people breaking actual laws are those using their "fists". You complain about them using "systemic, institutional violence", but advocate for basically giving them the tools to do so. If I were them, I would bait as many Antifa people into violence as I could just to have them arrested, and there is no doubt in my mind that it's crossed their minds more than once. Violence isn't the answer for a multitude of moral reasons, but it's even worse when you think of it in a tactical reason.[/QUOTE] it's self-defence, not anything to do with "tacticality". these fucks would do a hundred times worse to people like me if they could, even in not committing personal violence they support the atrocities that happened in europe during the holocaust and the people who would see those atrocities repeated today, so you can either run, do nothing or hit back; as above I mentioned that doing nothing isn't an option, and you can't run from the state/system/whatever you wanna call it, especially not in this day and age.

[QUOTE=V12US;53120827]Sports riots aren't politically motivated.[/QUOTE] So the actual problem with Antifa isn't that they're rioting but because they're left-wing?

The problem with antifa is it's the reverse of other left wing protest movements. You have your basic anti-war, anti-racism, etc. movements with such a significant overlap with liberals that people like the black bloc types (i.e. communists) are the tail attempting to wag a dog. They're just there to resist the momentum of these movements being appropriated by the Democrats and to radicalize people. They're there to push people past the spirit of the 60s and into the 30s. Antifa is different. Anti-fascism has never had a liberal character. The term itself is and has always been an excuse for engaging in radicalism in order to counter another form of it, principally by pushing the idea that liberal democracies failed the last time fascism rose (e.g. refusing to aid Spain, refusing to cooperate with the USSR until it was too late, etc. as well as questionable post-war things like Operation Gladio and use of nationalists, cooperation with Pinochet or Franco, and so on). The far left was the first to fight the battle (the symbol of Antifa is a KPD creation) last time and this will be the case once more. They can especially make this point since under Obama the democrats lost all sorts of seats and offices to the right despite feeling triumphant and confident going into 2016, and police are increasingly seen as the thugs of a ruling class or privileged demographic. Indeed, consider the age-old chant 'the police protect the fascists'. 10 years ago antifa in the US didn't exist. What we have now is the radicalization of what was called anti-racist action. If the alt right is a European import, so is antifa. We should be aware of Europe's history of political violence and extremism that has rendered liberal democracy there historically short lived. We should also be able apply the same fear of the right's political violence more or less to the left in a time when the left is out of power (as well as antagonized by alt right reactionaries and trolls). We had no problem recognizing this fear in the run up to the presidential election when Trump's loss was portrayed as eliciting right wing violence, and swathes of people are convinced that conservatism is consumed by a whitelash which is an existential threat to everyone not white and male. This culminated in arguments of apology for antifa, suggestions that horseshoe theory is false equivalence, the ethics of punching nazis and who is a nazi, and other ideological weapons, delusions, and dissonance meant to excuse a particular variety of tribalism. Identity politics of any sort is irrational and violent when the middle class, the basis of a healthy democracy, is being squeezed and in a decline.

[QUOTE=Alec W;53120754]No one ever said or thinks it is a free pass.[/QUOTE] Why would anyone be saying Nazis are worse in response to someone suggesting Antifa might be doing shit that warrants investigation and prosecution, unless they're trying to say that the Nazis being worse is a justification? If there's a price to being destructive, please tell that to all these people who basically go full 'what about nazis? why do you think antifa is equivalent to nazis? nazis are worse!' any time someone suggests Antifa might actually be doing things that warrant prosecution. [QUOTE=Carlito;53120773]It's actually whataboutism to imply that any violence committed by Antifa in the defence of others or the disruption of fascists is equivalent to the hate speech and physical violence perpetrated by Nazis.[/QUOTE] I know that 'actually [I]you're[/I] the one doing X because reasons' is everyone's favorite zinger, but I don't think you actually know what whataboutism is, because that doesn't make any sense. In any case, the ironic thing here is that you're claiming I painted any kind of equivalence, when I said absolutely nothing of the kind. Once again, any time somebody says Antifa ought to be held accountable for what they do, like clockwork the immediate response is 'yeah well nazis are worse, they're not equivalent!!!'. [I]That's[/I] textbook whataboutism; you're trying to downplay one group by comparing it to a worse group, when no comparison is implied or necessary. I made a post criticizing how holding Antifa accountable is inexplicably interpreted as treating Antifa and white supremacists as equivalent, and said that you can hold each group accountable for their actions without implying that they're all equivalent. And you've responded to that by... doing exactly the same thing, inexplicably interpreting my post as treating Antifa and white supremacists as equivalent. Literally demonstrating my argument for me.

[QUOTE=Rolond Returns;53120805]i read this and i only see "nazis are worse than people who stand up to nazis, imo"[/QUOTE] Antifa are extreme left, radical socialists and the like. They're not just "people who stand up to nazis", they've got ideas for their own oppressive regime.