California police worked with neo-Nazis to pursue 'anti-racist' activists, documents show - Polidicks

[QUOTE=catbarf;53120741]'But the Nazis are worse' is probably the most blatant example of whataboutism I've ever seen.[/QUOTE] Bringing up nazis when they're a central feature in the story is hardly whataboutism? If this story was just about antifa you would have a point but it isn't [editline]9th February 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;53121005]Antifa are extreme left, radical socialists and the like. They're not just "people who stand up to nazis", they've got ideas for their own oppressive regime.[/QUOTE] Antifa aren't that organized and often don't agree with themselves, let alone people like liberals and conservatives.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;53121005]Antifa are extreme left, radical socialists and the like. They're not just "people who stand up to nazis", they've got ideas for their own oppressive regime.[/QUOTE] if you look closely you'll see the majority of them share anarcho-communist beliefs which comes less down to instantiating any kind of regime and more down to opposing those who are percieved to be trying to construct their own regime to exploit others. It's a belief system that clashes with a lot of contemporary society (ie. this small business owner is still appropriating the surplus labour that the people he employs create, let's get angry and be idiots) and a lot of people are going to be alienated by that, but it's not a bad one in itself.

[QUOTE=Lambeth;53120685]Nazis are worse than antifa, imo[/QUOTE] Both are fucking disgusting neo-nazis protest for a terrible cause, but usually their protests remain relatively peaceful unless they come face to face with antifa antifa protest for a good cause [i]in theory[/i] (except for supporting destructive refugee/immigration policies) but their protests always turn into an all-out fucking riot, even if neo-nazis are not present the world would be a better place if we just exiled everyone from both groups into some remote island and let the retards kill each other

This does not shock me. I have been saying this for months now. Lots of government organizations are co-opted by paramilitary groups in this country. Militia Movement is quiet notorious for it's ability to co-opt the National Guards, police forces, ect. Likewise can be said for left-wing paramilitary factions which currently occupy ranks within civil right groups. It just the way it is man. As always, it's a good idea too keep friends in high places when SHTF.

If you think Nazi's and Antifa are comparable in any way you are straight up delusional. I didn't know people could be this fucking stupid.

[QUOTE=Carlito;53120846]Nazis also commit violence at these rallies as well, and more often they're armed and the perpetrators. I don't know about you, but if I'm at a rally or something and some cunt comes up at me trying to hit me with a stick, I'd feel pretty justified in fighting back.[/QUOTE] Well of course. But you're under the assumption that police are going after people who are defending themselves, not people who are instigating the violence, which is a hell of an assumption to make. [QUOTE=Rolond Returns;53120847]it's self-defence, not anything to do with "tacticality". these fucks would do a hundred times worse to people like me if they could, even in not committing personal violence they support the atrocities that happened in europe during the holocaust and the people who would see those atrocities repeated today, so you can either run, do nothing or hit back; as above I mentioned that doing nothing isn't an option, and you can't run from the state/system/whatever you wanna call it, especially not in this day and age.[/QUOTE] Wow, your thoughts on this are ACTUALLY crazy and extremist. There is no way that anyone is going to show you that violence is not the answer at this juncture and only serves to hurt your own cause. This would be a useless argument to have. [QUOTE=Carlito;53120850]So the actual problem with Antifa isn't that they're rioting but because they're left-wing?[/QUOTE] Now you're just being dense. You know the answers, you just refuse to accept them.

[QUOTE=UnidentifiedFlyingTard;53122060]If you think Nazi's and Antifa are comparable in anyway you are straight up delusional. I didn't know people could be this fucking stupid.[/QUOTE] Both of them are the same level of stupidity.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;53122222]one hates black people, jews, and other minorities the other hates nazis[/QUOTE] sure, but the thing is the far-left definition of a "nazi" is pretty fucking broad you march around wearing a swastika on your arm while beating up minorities? you're obviously a nazi you're a cop that's only doing his job, which happens to involve breaking up an antifa protest blocking the deportation of a refugee to a safe country? you're a fucking nazi and the people in that protest will let you know it you dare to come out with an opinion on immigration policies that isn't "we absolutely have to take in more refugees than our country can handle"? bam, you're now a nazi

[quote=Dudesonfan]you're a cop that's only doing his job, which happens to involve breaking up an antifa protest blocking the deportation of a refugee to a safe country? [/quote] [url=https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/09/california-police-white-supremacists-counter-protest]Some of those that work forces are the same that burn crosses.[/url] [quote]Officers also worked with TWP member Derik Punneo to try to identify anti-fascist activists, recordings revealed. Officers interviewed Punneo in jail after he was arrested for an unrelated domestic violence charge. Audio recordings captured investigators saying they brought photos to show him, hoping he could help them identify anti-fascist activists. The officers said, “We’re pretty much going after them,” and assured him: “We’re looking at you as a victim.”[/quote] "Only doing their job"? Yeah, right. [quote=Dudesonfan]you dare to come out with an opinion on immigration policies that isn't "we absolutely have to take in more refugees than our country can handle"? [/quote] That's something that Nazis agree with, though. Also it's against the spirit of our country to 'not take in refugees'. Our damn national icon, the statue of liberty, was officially unveiled to the public with this poem accompanying it - encapsulating the sentiment of the nation we'd like to be. [quote]Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, With conquering limbs astride from land to land; Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name MOTHER OF EXILES. From her beacon-hand Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame. "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"[/quote] The main issue is that the Nazis believe the 'amount of refugees our country can handle' is approximately zero if their skin tone isn't white. These statements are echoed by the President when he states that 'shithole countries' with darker skinned people are ones we shouldn't allow any immigration from while we should prioritize immigration from countries with almost uniformly light skinned people. If you align yourself with the President on that then, yeah, you're going to get accused of having xenophobic and even racist, bigoted, tendencies because that's where the statement from the President drew from. If you're for [I]reasonable[/I] modification of existing policy to help smooth out a few of the wrinkles in our immigration processes you're not at all on the side of Trump - but unfortunately these days I'd say you'd have to be pretty explicit that you're for 'a few small tweaks' to our before-Trump policies if you want to convince people that you're not just hiding your actual intentions and feelings on the matter. Additionally, despite protests, our country can handle a fuck ton more refugees than we presently are. A [I]fuck[/I] ton. We literally just went 'well I guess we'll be fine' by adding an enormous trillion dollar debt to our economy to give tax breaks to people who almost certainly will not be paying any of that debt 'back' by investing those breaks into the economy and the lower class via jobs and new companies et cetera.

[url=https://theintercept.com/2017/01/31/the-fbi-has-quietly-investigated-white-supremacist-infiltration-of-law-enforcement/]White supremacists have been infiltrating local law enforcement for decades[/url]

[QUOTE=RichyZ;53122222]one hates black people, jews, and other minorities the other hates nazis[/QUOTE] Nah, the far left and far right are both pretty equal, your ignorant definitions aside. This is coming from someone who was black bloc during OWS The other is really a mob that liberally uses an increasingly nebulous term it has no incentive or ideological interest in responsibly using or defining, in order to justify its own aimless violent behavior that has no effect on actual terrorism, is itself growing faster and is much larger, and has no equivalent street fighting group to target. Instead, it has a creep towards the center as conservatives begin to oppose identity politics and decide to appeal to those on their side left behind by globalization. 'White supremacist' has essentially lost its meaning and refers to anyone opposed to equity and that rising understanding of the West as a tale of white supremacist capitalist patriarchy. You just need to look at how the left eats itself with sectarianism and has its own internal hierarchy based on race and gender to imagine how it feels about the rights of those outside of the group, and the danger of zealots seizing on dissonance of 'communist' and 'nazi'. This dissonance over far left and far right needs to go, it doesn't matter how convenient it is during the Trump era. With many millenials feeling positive about socialism, Democrats having lost many offices and seats all the way up to the Congressional level, and frustration with a deal on DACA leading to feelings of betrayal, it's time to look at the threat of left extremism towards conservatives.

[quote]This dissonance over far left and far right needs to go, it doesn't matter how convenient it is during the Trump era. With many millenials feeling positive about socialism, Democrats having lost many offices and seats all the way up to the Congressional level, and frustration with a deal on DACA leading to feelings of betrayal, it's time to look at the threat of left extremism towards conservatives.[/quote] Prove there is specifically a legitimate threat of 'left extremism towards conservatives'. And I don't mean 'your opinion' nor do I mean 'towards people who lean to the far right', I mean specifically the party of Conservatives as per your claim. Provide sources that back your claim and would be postable as a thread opener in Polidicks. I also want a source on this ludicrous claim: [quote]Nah, the far left and far right are both pretty equal, your ignorant definitions aside. [/quote] I don't want your opinion on why you think they're 'pretty equal'. I want you to actually demonstrate that they are equal - that they are just as violent as Nazis. That they wish genocide on some 99.5% of the world's total population and mean that sincerely.

[url=https://www.salon.com/2018/02/09/surge-in-alt-right-violence-at-least-43-murders-in-the-last-four-years/]So far I think Far Right - Far Left politically motivated murders are pretty much 43 - 0[/url]

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;53122351] It's against the spirit of our country to 'not take in refugees'. Our damn national icon, the statue of liberty, was officially unveiled to the public with this poem accompanying it - encapsulating the sentiment of the nation we'd like to be. [/QUOTE] A poem on a statue written at a time when immigration came primarily from western and eastern europe and east asia is neither a law or relevant to immigration legislation now. Again: A poem is not a law.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53122433]A poem on a statue written at a time when immigration came primarily from western and eastern europe and east asia is neither a law or relevant to immigration legislation now. Again: A poem is not a law.[/QUOTE] Sure, just ignore the historical basis for America being a nation of immigrants because a bigoted supremacy faction within the nation wants a white ethnostate and has a President who's willing to pander to them. But, sure, it's just a poem, go ahead and shit on Lady Liberty and everything she represents as an image. It's not like the America today is even recognizably deserving of having the statue. Ship it back to the French or give it to us Canadians or something.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53122433]A poem on a statue written at a time when immigration came primarily from western and eastern europe and east asia is neither a law or relevant to immigration legislation now. Again: A poem is not a law.[/QUOTE] The statue didn't create the sentiment, [U]the sentiment created the statue[/U]. I didn't claim it was a law. I claimed it encapsulates the sentiment of what we'd like America to be - what Americans historically have thought themselves to be and what they'd like their nation to be. We are a nation of immigrants to begin with; our policies revolved around that sentiment. The opinions of our founding fathers is considered any time there is question on constitutional law, mind, and none of those journals and public statements were 'laws' themselves. Laws are built upon foundations of public opinion and societal mores/ethics. That 'poem on a statue' is to immigration as the 'blindfolded lady of justice' is to the execution of law. It isn't what we are, nor do they stand as statues that 'describe the laws' of our land -- they're the beacons, the goals, we strive towards and seek to emulate. The country of origin is majorly irrelevant so long as the person in question gets through our very extensive and difficult immigration processes to begin with.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53122433]A poem on a statue written at a time when immigration came primarily from western and eastern europe and east asia is neither a law or relevant to immigration legislation now. Again: A poem is not a law.[/QUOTE] idk if u know how to read or not but no where in that post was the concept of law referenced

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;53122438]Sure, just ignore the historical basis for America being a nation of immigrants because a bigoted supremacy faction within the nation wants a white ethnostate and has a President who's willing to pander to them. But, sure, it's just a poem, go ahead and shit on Lady Liberty and everything she represents as an image. It's not like the America today is even recognizably deserving of having the statue. Ship it back to the French or give it to us Canadians or something.[/QUOTE] We also have a historical basis for wiping out indigenous peoples. Perhaps we should continue with that as well. You might not like this but just because we did something a long time ago doesn't mean it's wise to do so now. Also: [QUOTE] a bigoted supremacy faction within the nation wants a white ethnostate[/QUOTE] source on this?

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53122444][b]We also have a historical basis for wiping out indigenous peoples. Perhaps we should continue with that as well.[/b][/quote] So we can't let people immigrate to the United States unless we also start killing american natives? What is this bullshit logic? Is this really what you're going to bring to this debate? "We can only allow immigration from other countries so long as they come on slaver ships"? Is this the argument you're building towards? [quote]source on this?[/quote] [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Nazi_Party]Are you not aware of what the Nazis are?[/url]

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53122433]A poem on a statue written at a time when immigration came primarily from western and eastern europe and east asia is neither a law or relevant to immigration legislation now. Again: A poem is not a law.[/QUOTE] I get that british protestants and germans are good people but why did you include the papist dagos and communist slavs? That's not to even mention the micks who'd sooner burn up their cities than get a job. [sp]xenophobia was stupid then and it still is now.[/sp]

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;53122448]So we can't let people immigrate to the United States unless we also start killing american natives? What is this bullshit logic? Is this really what you're going to bring to this debate?[/QUOTE] If your only argument for doing something is "Well we did it a long time ago. Our nation was founded on it!" then you might as well have the same logic for the other things we did a very long time ago and the sentiments that were present in that founding.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53122453]If your only argument for doing something is "Well we did it a long time ago. Our nation was founded on it!" then you might as well have the same logic for the other things we did a very long time ago and the sentiments that were present in our founding.[/QUOTE] If your only argument is 'the historical and societal importance of a thing are irrelevant to what we should do' then why are we not abolishing the Constitution right now? Why do we refuse to change the flag of our nation to something that's a bit more modern? Why do we have elections on the same day (after the first adjustment) that we've always had them?

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;53122458]If your only argument is 'the historical and societal importance of a thing are irrelevant to what we should do' then why are we not abolishing the Constitution right now?[/QUOTE] Because the constitution is a set of laws, not a poem. One is an established set of laws able to be reformed and worked out. The other is a poem that appeals to sentimentality. The Lazarus poem is not a good way to convince people we should accept anyone from anywhere.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53122461]Because the constitution is a set of laws, not a poem. One is an established set of laws able to be reformed and worked out. The other is a poem that appeals to sentimentality.[/QUOTE] The laws, and indeed our constitution, [I]were founded on sentiments[/I]. Laws do not make a society; [I]society[/I] makes laws. [quote]The Lazarus poem is not a good way to convince people we should accept anyone from anywhere.[/quote] The Lazarus poem is not an argument to convince people; it is a statement from those who have already been convinced. If you want to talk about how immigration is overall good to the United States then that's an entirely different discussion than whatever it is you're spouting off about here.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;53122465]The laws, and indeed our constitution, [I]were founded on sentiments[/I].[/QUOTE] Sentiments that were made into law. The Founding Fathers were not looking up happy poems to transmute into a new nation, it was actual philosophy and English law infused with Enlightenment ideals. The Lazarus poem is not something that can or even should be turned into a law because it is literally a feel good rhyme that takes into account literally nothing about reality.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53122444]We also have a historical basis for wiping out indigenous peoples. Perhaps we should continue with that as well. You might not like this but just because we did something a long time ago doesn't mean it's wise to do so now.[/QUOTE] Paying Americans a fair wage for their work and ensuring they actually had a future for themselves and their kids is something you guys did a long time ago and Congressional wisdom says it's unwise to do that again now. Wanna keep bringing up bullshit whataboutisms or are you going to address the fact that America is a nation founded on immigrants that now has a major political party wanting to pull up the ladder for anyone coming from a "shithole" country? Take the poem off the Statue of Liberty and replace it with a plaque that says "WHITE PEOPLE ONLY", and change the torch into a big glowing middle finger. [QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53122444]Also: [QUOTE]a bigoted supremacy faction within the nation wants a white ethnostate[/QUOTE] source on this?[/QUOTE] Have you not been paying attention for the last 13 months? Starting from the attempts at a Muslim ban, it's been pretty fucking obvious.

[QUOTE=proboardslol;53122383][url=https://www.salon.com/2018/02/09/surge-in-alt-right-violence-at-least-43-murders-in-the-last-four-years/]So far I think Far Right - Far Left politically motivated murders are pretty much 43 - 0[/url][/QUOTE] Salon is not a source. This article includes Elliot Rodger as part of the number, probably due to the ideological motivations of the source it's citing. There goes a third of that number. Of the cited examples in the article, they add up to 12. Dylan Roof, the Charlottesville guy, and the dude who shot and killed two in New Mexico. Things are still unfolding as we are not even two years into the Trump presidency and probably around that time since we became really polarized. For a look into that timeframe: [quote]Left Wing terrorists killed only 23 people in terrorist attacks during this time [1990s-2017] but 13 since the beginning of 2016. Nationalist and Right Wing terrorists have only killed 5 since then, including Charlottesville.[/quote] This was as of August 2017. [url]https://www.cato.org/blog/terrorism-deaths-ideology-charlottesville-anomaly[/url] It's clear that following the 90s with the militia movement and Oklahoma, the next 15 years of Islamic terror, polarization and Weimar-tier loss of faith in democracy has led to a toss-up in which extreme is going to be the greatest threat. Looking at the numbers, neither will significantly lead the other. [QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;53122377]Prove there is specifically a legitimate threat of 'left extremism towards conservatives'. And I don't mean 'your opinion' nor do I mean 'towards people who lean to the far right', I mean specifically the party of Conservatives as per your claim. Provide sources that back your claim and would be postable as a thread opener in Polidicks.[/quote] You just moved the goalposts by capitalizing the C. It's good to see you're off to a great start again with me by re-framing argument to a party. I guess you didn't learn anything from last time. Congressional baseball shooting, violence at conservative and anti-PC speakers on campus (Shapiro, Murray, Milo, etc.) including the Battle of Berkeley, the many injuries and hundreds of arrest at [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_Donald_Trump]Trump protests[/url], including many more events cancelled by threats and concerns about safety. The trend is enough for my state to designate the group a terror organization, for Pelosi to recognize and disavow after the president started identifying antifa as a problem, for the FBI and DHS to [url=http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/01/antifa-charlottesville-violence-fbi-242235]monitor[/url] Antifa as suspect (as of April 2016) it being primarily responsible for violence at public rallies, and for far-left parties to report [url=http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/02/kshama-sawant-anti-trump-protests-historic-chance-170211094824566.html]significant increases[/url] in membership. This is a marked shift in activity on the left's extremes we have not seen since the 70s, the last time we had a significant domestic terrorism issue. This has potential to ramp up considering the Democrats after the Obama years are out of power until the midterms, and polls reflecting such have been shrinking in margins favoring them. Now it looks like they'll only win the house for certain, while in the meantime those on the party's fringe are frustrated they aren't doing enough to protect immigrants and appear to be willing to make a deal with the devil on immigration reform (interpreted in the polarizing lens of race) in order to avoid blame for either shutdowns or DACA expiring with no protections achieved by then. [quote]I don't want your opinion on why you think they're 'pretty equal'. I want you to actually demonstrate that they are equal - that they are just as violent as Nazis. That they wish genocide on some 99.5% of the world's total population and mean that sincerely.[/QUOTE] Go read a history book. I want to know why you're trying to rehabilitate one extreme here.

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;53122472] Have you not been paying attention for the last 13 months? Starting from the attempts at a Muslim ban, it's been pretty fucking obvious.[/QUOTE] That's not a source. Provide an actual source, please.

[QUOTE=Conscript;53122473]Go read a history book. I want to know why you're trying to rehabilitate one extreme here.[/QUOTE] I want to know why you're perpetuating something that you refuse to specifically source; that you can't or won't demonstrate is more than your opinion. If you're going to make grand, sweeping, claims you better come here with sources to back them. I'm not going to verify your own sources for you. If you don't have any then [I]don't make the claim.[/I] [quote]You just moved the goalposts by capitalizing the C.[/quote] You started it by talking about said party. Why would the people you're talking about hate Conservatives but not conservatives? Do you have any source/proof on that particular claim itself? [quote](Sources that do not back the statement that was made)[/quote] Prove that the objective of those sources you've pulled are specifically 'left extremism towards conservatives'. Prove that they were there, specifically, to commit violence against, [U]specifically[/U], conservatives.

[QUOTE=Johnny Joe;53122474]That's not a source. Provide an actual source, please.[/QUOTE] Firgof already pointed out to you that [I]we are talking about American Nazis[/I]. Let's look back at Charlottesville, where you had pasty white fuckboys carrying tiki torches and yelling about not being replaced by Jews as well as tons of other shit, [URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/lets-party-like-its-1933-inside-the-disturbing-alt-right-world-of-richard-spencer/2016/11/22/cf81dc74-aff7-11e6-840f-e3ebab6bcdd3_story.html?utm_term=.82bde4102ef2"]and their pal, Richard Spencer.[/URL] [QUOTE][B]For years, Spencer and his followers worked in obscure corners of the Internet to promote pride in white identity and the creation of an “ethno-state” that would banish minorities. Then came the presidential campaign of Donald Trump, whose attacks on undocumented immigrants, Muslims and political correctness deeply resonated with them.[/B] ... With the protesters gone, he returned to the private room, which had been reserved under the name “Griffin family reunion.” Inside, former reality-TV star Tila Tequila — who claims she is Adolf Hitler reincarnated — joined two men in the movement in a Sieg Heil salute posted to Twitter. A young blond man who wore a tight shirt and thigh-high shorts in the style of a Nazi youth mingled with a gray-haired, 69-year-old lawyer in a dark suit and tie who once represented the KKK. (On Monday, the restaurant apologized for hosting the gathering, saying it didn’t know anything about the National Policy Institute.) Spencer spotted a manager and asked him to bring in the Maggiano’s workers who had helped protect them. Soon, eight staff members — six of them people of color who would be exiled from Spencer’s longed-for ethno-state — entered to a standing ovation from the white nationalists. As the dinner neared its end, and with the TV cameras all downstairs, he explained the schedule for the next day’s conference. Then, as Spencer considered how they should mark its finish, he smiled and offered a joke. “Let’s party like it’s 1933,” he declared, referencing the year Hitler was appointed Germany’s chancellor and the Nazis embarked on the creation of their own ethno-state. Beneath chandeliers and amid dark, wood-paneled walls, the alt-right erupted in cheers.[/QUOTE] Now please tell me how you plan on invalidating the Washington Post as a valid source for my argument.