Girl, 8, wants to be 1st patient at SickKids transgender clinic - Polidicks

[QUOTE=lxmach1;42577027]this is late, but there is a huge contradiction in this argument. first, you immediately state that the kid was born male with male parts, not trans. then he was given medication to suppress the male hormones and gave him female hormones, since he was male. later in his life [I]despite hormone medication he still identified as the gender he was born as[/I]. since you're arguing for the hormone treatment, I think this isn't a good argument to use since it states that the hormone treatment did not affect his gender at all.[/QUOTE] The argument is sound. It's not arguing that hormone control works. The argument is that gender identity is quite hard to change. If someone identified as male and was forced through female transitioning it won't stick properly. If they identified as female and went through it, it should stick.

[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;42577056]How not? He's not trans, they forced him to transition, and he didn't feel right as a female. The whole argument is not for arguing hormone treatment. It's to argue that you can't force someone to be transgender and you can't force them to not be transgender.[/QUOTE] well, if hormone treatment doesn't work then I think more focus should be put to raising public awareness and equality rather than solving a temporary issue. that way public acceptance could rise and create less issues in their social lives. basically, I think we should conform the public for the individual rather than conforming the individual for the public. to me, getting rid of(or at least marginally removing) transphobia seems like a better option than effectively disguising someone to hide the issue.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;42576097]ITS NOT A FUCKING MATTER OF OPINION. YOU DON'T GET AN OPINION ON THE ISSUE. Also, Alex is a well known transphobe and you really don't want him agreeing with you, and saying that him agreeing with you is support is very unhelpful for you.[/QUOTE] First of all, calm down bro. Second of all, all he's saying is no 8 year old should undergo any type of serious matter like this because they haven't formed good judgement. Good day, sir. [editline]19th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;42577056]How not? He's not trans, they forced him to transition, and he didn't feel right as a female. The whole argument is not for arguing hormone treatment. It's to argue that you can't force someone to be transgender and you can't force them to not be transgender. You are born with an identity, either cisgender or transgender.[/QUOTE] You're really smart, aren't you? The fact of the matter is there's no real debate if an 8 year old has good judgement. Period. Stop freaking out and come back to the reality of the situation. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Didn't read the OP + History w/Transgender threads" - Megafan))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=alexguydude;42577106]First of all, calm down bro. Second of all, all he's saying is no 8 year old should undergo any type of serious matter like this because they haven't formed good judgement. Good day, sir.[/QUOTE] fuck have you even read the MULTIPLE LINKS people have put up showing that children do actually form their gender identity early on?? and what "serious matter" is this? it's fucking therapy, god damn. nobody is planning on giving her hormones (or hormone blockers) or surgery, this is to help her figure things out

[QUOTE=Blind Lulu;42577096]Wanting to be paralyzed is not an identity disorder that is completely impossible to fix through mental means. You can't make someone identify as a different gender because gender identity is rigid. Once you develop a gender identity it is permanent. Literally the only solutions for someone whose gender identity is contrary to their biological sex is to allow them to go through the process of eventually transitioning, because their is no mental cure. Anything else would be just making the victim needlessly suffer. Whatever causes someone to want to be paralyzed is a mental disorder that should be treated. Trying to compare the two really doesn't do your argument any favors. It just makes you look more ignorant on the subject. You should probably find a new argument because seeing you latch on to this one is just really sad.[/QUOTE] I don't understand how the two situations are so different. If transgender people have existed for the duration of mankind am I to assume that they just upped and offed themselves in all instances before these medical marvels were available? The argument that it is the "only solution" is weak because as far as I'm aware this technology has only existed fairly recently. It sure sounds like the only other alternative in 2013 to getting surgery or medication is to commit suicide from what is being said in this thread. If allowing a transgender person to have these surgeries/medications prevents them from committing suicide (that sounds like the only alternative outcome) then surely that is the lesser of two evils. If the result of the paralyzed disorder is that they try committing suicide then surely allowing them to paralyze themself would also be the lesser of two evils? I'm having a hard time understanding why we can't give these people who want to be paralyzed medication and surgery yet transgender people seem to have some absolute right to these things (if gender is only one part of a human, who is to say the other parts, like wanting to be paralyzed are less important?) [editline]20th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Arctic-Zone;42577152]fuck have you even read the MULTIPLE LINKS people have put up showing that children do actually form their gender identity early on?? and what "serious matter" is this? it's fucking therapy, god damn. nobody is planning on giving her hormones (or hormone blockers) or surgery, this is to help her figure things out[/QUOTE] Watch the video. They say that medication may be a course of action, even though they don't make it immediately clear at what age this would occur.

It's kinda difficult to parse all this, but by the looks of it nigerianprince's arguments are: 1. Children with gender dysphoria shouldn't get the recommended treatment for their condition (i.e. hormone blockers, which are a different thing to the hormone replacement therapy he brought up) because in theory they could be dangerous, although he's given no evidence that this is the case and in fact [URL="http://www.sciencecodex.com/medical_intervention_in_transgender_adolescents_appears_to_be_safe_and_effective-114120"]there's evidence that they're actually perfectly safe.[/URL] 2. A small percentage children who take hormone blockers may hypothetically change their mind. Therefore, instead of the hypothetical small percentage of children coming off the blockers when they make that decision (so puberty resumes for them as normal and they are very unlikely to be adversely affected in any way), all children should be denied the treatment entirely, and so those who do not change their mind (in all likelihood the vast majority of those who would have gotten the treatment) will be forced to undergo the irreversible process of puberty leaving them with a body they can't stand, and quite possibly leading them to serious mental distress and perhaps even suicide. 3. At some point in the future people could possibly find a way to treat gender dysphoria without transitioning and associated medical treatment, and his opinion this would be better. Therefore, until this hypothetical solution becomes possible (if indeed it does become possible, and as yet we have no way of knowing that it will) people with this condition should get no treatment at all and instead, again, be left to suffer depression/suicide/etc. Tbh I'm not very convinced.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577171]I don't understand how the two situations are so different. If transgender people have existed for the duration of mankind am I to assume that they just upped and offed themselves in all instances before these medical marvels were available? The argument that it is the "only solution" is weak because as far as I'm aware this technology has only existed fairly recently. It sure sounds like the only other alternative in 2013 to getting surgery or medication is to commit suicide from what is being said in this thread. If allowing a transgender person to have these surgeries/medications prevents them from committing suicide (that sounds like the only alternative outcome) then surely that is the lesser of two evils. If the result of the paralyzed disorder is that they try committing suicide then surely allowing them to paralyze themself would also be the lesser of two evils? I'm having a hard time understanding why we can't give these people who want to be paralyzed medication and surgery yet transgender people seem to have some absolute right to these things (if gender is only one part of a human, who is to say the other parts, like wanting to be paralyzed are less important?) [editline]20th October 2013[/editline] Watch the video. They say that medication may be a course of action, even though they don't make it immediately clear at what age this would occur.[/QUOTE] The reason it's different is because a lot of the people in this thread identify as transgender or have friends that are, and are using their emotional nonsense over what actually makes sense logically. Can't really debate with these guys, dude.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577171]I don't understand how the two situations are so different. If transgender people have existed for the duration of mankind am I to assume that they just upped and offed themselves in all instances before these medical marvels were available? The argument that it is the "only solution" is weak because as far as I'm aware this technology has only existed fairly recently. It sure sounds like the only other alternative in 2013 to getting surgery or medication is to commit suicide from what is being said in this thread. If allowing a transgender person to have these surgeries/medications prevents them from committing suicide (that sounds like the only alternative outcome) then surely that is the lesser of two evils. If the result of the paralyzed disorder is that they try committing suicide then surely allowing them to paralyze themself would also be the lesser of two evils? I'm having a hard time understanding why we can't give these people who want to be paralyzed medication and surgery yet transgender people seem to have some absolute right to these things (if gender is only one part of a human, who is to say the other parts, like wanting to be paralyzed are less important?) [editline]20th October 2013[/editline] Watch the video. They say that medication may be a course of action, even though they don't make it immediately clear at what age this would occur.[/QUOTE] you fail to realize that gender is an integral part of an individual's identity also, many societies in the past have accepted and tolerated transgender individuals, so even with the lack of proper medication and surgery for those individuals, they were accepted for who they are (a notable example would be hindu communities all the way from the beginning to even now) so no, suicide is not the only option aside from transitioning, but western society does sort of put that kind of pressure on transgender individuals

[QUOTE=alexguydude;42577209]The reason it's different is because a lot of the people in this thread identify as transgender or have friends that are, and are using their emotional nonsense over what actually makes sense logically. Can't really debate with these guys, dude.[/QUOTE] Your own personal definition of 'normal' was the same stigma that existed against blacks in the 1950s and 1960s, and it's used in the same exact way to justify homophobia.

[QUOTE=Tweevle;42577202]It's kinda difficult to parse all this, but by the looks of it nigerianprince's arguments are: 1. Children with gender dysphoria shouldn't get the recommended treatment for their condition (i.e. hormone blockers, which are a different thing to the hormone replacement therapy he brought up) because in theory they could be dangerous, although he's given no evidence that this is the case and in fact [URL="http://www.sciencecodex.com/medical_intervention_in_transgender_adolescents_appears_to_be_safe_and_effective-114120"]there's evidence that they're actually perfectly safe.[/URL] 2. A small percentage children who take hormone blockers may hypothetically change their mind. Therefore, instead of the hypothetical small percentage of children coming off the blockers when they make that decision (so puberty resumes for them as normal and they are very unlikely to be adversely affected in any way), all children should be denied the treatment entirely, and so those who do not change their mind (in all likelihood the vast majority of those who would have gotten the treatment) will be forced to undergo the irreversible process of puberty leaving them with a body they can't stand, and quite possibly leading them to serious mental distress and perhaps even suicide. 3. At some point in the future people could possibly find a way to treat gender dysphoria without transitioning and associated medical treatment, and his opinion this would be better. Therefore, until this hypothetical solution becomes possible (if indeed it does become possible, and as yet we have no way of knowing that it will) people with this condition should get no treatment at all and instead, again, be left to suffer depression/suicide/etc. Tbh I'm not very convinced.[/QUOTE] 1. To be clear my argument was against extremely young children (8) who are not hermaphrodites having access to these drugs. I'm perfectly fine with mature adults deciding they want to change their body. From the sources I read even the blockers have numerous side effects; I'm not sure how a childs hormones being manipulated could be considered 'perfectly safe' either. 2. I don't think that situation is hypothetical. As this sort of treatment becomes more widely available there will always be cases where people regret their decision. And as much as the adverse effects may be unlikely, they still may occur. 3. I was more trying to say that the drugs in particular are something that seem to change often and may not always be the best solution. That is why I would be against extremely young children possibly irreversibly changing their body forever. Also, puberty happens naturally and isn't some disgusting element of life. Teaching kids that puberty and the associated effects (i.e. growing hair in places, body/mind changes) are 'bad' and should be 'avoided' might have consequences for future generations.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577171] Watch the video. They say that medication may be a course of action, even though they don't make it immediately clear at what age this would occur.[/QUOTE] medication treatments (hrt and hormone blockers) only start at the onset of puberty or later, just so you know [QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577283] Also, puberty happens naturally and isn't some disgusting element of life. Teaching kids that puberty and the associated effects (i.e. growing hair in places, body/mind changes) are 'bad' and should be 'avoided' might have consequences for future generations.[/QUOTE] nobody is arguing that puberty is unnatural or anything the thing is that transgender teens go through the WRONG KIND of puberty

[QUOTE=alexguydude;42577209]The reason it's different is because a lot of the people in this thread identify as transgender or have friends that are, and are using their emotional nonsense over what actually makes sense logically. Can't really debate with these guys, dude.[/QUOTE] You can easily debate with people on the side of LBGT issues. The first prerequisite is "don't be a fucking idiot", you're not doing well so far. The second? "Be accepting of things that are different". Ohh, still not doing so well I'm afraid. Really, what about the arguments the pro-t side are putting forward are "illogical"? An 8 year old will have a concept of who they are, it's one of the great things about being human, we are self aware from a exceptionally young age. Letting that 8 year old undergo assessment and therapy harms who exactly? If the assessment comes back negative, then nothing happens, if it comes back as "transgender as fuck", they start planning. The initial steps of transition at that age seem relatively harmless (barring the side effects of medication, as like all meds, there's a small chance of side effects), blocking hormones won't fuck you up too horribly.

[QUOTE=Arctic-Zone;42577227]you fail to realize that gender is an integral part of an individual's identity also, many societies in the past have accepted and tolerated transgender individuals, so even with the lack of proper medication and surgery for those individuals, they were accepted for who they are (a notable example would be hindu communities all the way from the beginning to even now) so no, suicide is not the only option aside from transitioning, but western society does sort of put that kind of pressure on transgender individuals[/QUOTE] So basically because of other people, transgender people's only option is to permanently change their body? And transgender people who do not have access to treatment will not absolutely end up committing suicide. I'm having a hard time understanding why this treatment is anywhere near a good idea for children this young if that is the case. Surely issues with other people could be solved through therapy until they reach an older age?

[QUOTE=alexguydude;42577106]You're really smart, aren't you? The fact of the matter is there's no real debate if an 8 year old has good judgement. Period. Stop freaking out and come back to the reality of the situation.[/QUOTE] Uh, someone needs to calm down. Also you can't just say, "Im right, you're wrong," and dismiss it as fact.

nigerianprince, i don't think you understand what exactly hormone replacement therapy is for or when it starts nobody would get hormone treatment before puberty because puberty is when the hormones actually start flooding in and the body is receptive to them likewise, nobody would get hormone blocking medication because before puberty there isn't much to block

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577331]So basically because of other people, transgender people's only option is to permanently change their body?[/QUOTE] Well...yes? We cannot change gender identity without causing more problems due to them living more of a lie than before. However, we can mould a body to fit what they think it should. So, why is this such a despicable response to GID? And while they will not absolutely commit suicide if they don't get access to treatment, their lives aren't going to be great really, so why stop them getting treatment?

[QUOTE=Arctic-Zone;42577288]medication treatments (hrt and hormone blockers) only start at the onset of puberty or later, just so you know nobody is arguing that puberty is unnatural or anything the thing is that transgender teens go through the WRONG KIND of puberty[/QUOTE] Yes and that is part of my argument too. In girls nowadays the age of puberty has become dramatically lower (there are studies that claim this is because of meat consumption, which is conceivably influenced by the hormones added). If a girl starts puberty at 8-9 years of age, wouldn't that mean giving them drugs at that age?

[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;42577339]Uh, someone needs to calm down. Also you can't just say, "Im right, you're wrong," and just dismiss it as fact.[/QUOTE] If you think an 8 year old has good judgement, why don't you give him a drivers license and a gun. It is a damn fact. 8 year olds obviously aren't fully developed in their thinking, and they won't think the same things in say, 10 years, when they're a legal adult. It's not a "I'm right, you're wrong." The entire world obviously agrees because 8 year olds don't have access to a lot of stuff for obvious reasons.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577331]So basically because of other people, transgender people's only option is to permanently change their body? And transgender people who do not have access to treatment will not absolutely end up committing suicide. I'm having a hard time understanding why this treatment is anywhere near a good idea for children this young if that is the case. Surely issues with other people could be solved through therapy until they reach an older age?[/QUOTE] the answers to your questions have been posed several times in the thread. but whenever they come up, you put your hands on your ears and go "LALALALALA NOT LISTENING". you don't want to understand anything, you just want to pretend that you're right.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;42577357]Well...yes? We cannot change gender identity without causing more problems due to them living more of a lie than before. However, we can mould a body to fit what they think it should. So, why is this such a despicable response to GID? And while they will not absolutely commit suicide if they don't get access to treatment, their lives aren't going to be great really, so why stop them getting treatment?[/QUOTE] Again, I'm all for adults receiving these treatments, heck even people who are 14+ (I pretty much voted for a party recently who are pro gay marriage LGBT etc); I just don't believe a decision like this should be in the hands of an 8 year old.

[QUOTE=alexguydude;42577370]If you think an 8 year old has good judgement, why don't you give him a drivers license and a gun. It is a damn fact. 8 year olds obviously aren't fully developed in their thinking, and they won't think the same things in say, 10 years, when they're a legal adult. It's not a "I'm right, you're wrong." The entire world obviously agrees because 8 year olds don't have access to a lot of stuff for obvious reasons.[/QUOTE] my fucking god, are you incapable of reading [U][I][B]any trans child considering hormone therapy goes through a psychological screening process[/B][/I][/U]

[QUOTE=alexguydude;42577370]If you think an 8 year old has good judgement, why don't you give him a drivers license and a gun. It is a damn fact. 8 year olds obviously aren't fully developed in their thinking, and they won't think the same things in say, 10 years, when they're a legal adult. It's not a "I'm right, you're wrong." The entire world obviously agrees because 8 year olds don't have access to a lot of stuff for obvious reasons.[/QUOTE] Driving and blat-blat'ing aren't related to self awareness, critical thinking maybe. But not self image. GID is. Big, big difference.

[QUOTE=alexguydude;42577370]If you think an 8 year old has good judgement, why don't you give him a drivers license and a gun.[/quote] Both of those things are social constructs, not self-awareness. We are not born knowing what a driver's license, a car, or a gun is. But we are born with a sense of our identity and sexuality. Those are things that make us who we are as individuals. So your "argument" is more of a logical fallacy. [quote]It is a damn fact. 8 year olds obviously aren't fully developed in their thinking, and they won't think the same things in say, 10 years, when they're a legal adult.[/QUOTE] Calm down. [editline]sadkkasd[/editline] I mean seriously you and nigerian are both generalizing that ALL KIDS are incapable of making decisions for themselves. This is simply not true. Children are not retarded empty shells. They are people, human fucking beings that are different. You can't generalize them all into one category like you can with toddlers.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577361]Yes and that is part of my argument too. In girls nowadays the age of puberty has become dramatically lower (there are studies that claim this is because of meat consumption, which is conceivably influenced by the hormones added). If a girl starts puberty at 8-9 years of age, wouldn't that mean giving them drugs at that age?[/QUOTE] if they are ftm, yeah, actually, and i fail to see how it's an inappropriate course of action to start someone on hormone blockers at that age if they are getting hormonal then i mean, really, gender identity by then is already [i]pretty[/i] rigid and if it does seem to be harmful then they can have their hormone blocker medication switched or try with medication later

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577383]Again, I'm all for adults receiving these treatments, heck even people who are 14+ (I pretty much voted for a party recently who are pro gay marriage LGBT etc); I just don't believe a decision like this should be in the hands of an 8 year old.[/QUOTE] But they aren't doing anything at this stage. Just preliminary analysis of the child to see what's actually going on up there. Recognising it at an earlier age gives much better results, so what's the problem with assessment taking place this young? A trained team of psychologists who know GID will be able to give a very informed opinion. If the child insists they are trans even after assessment says no, then assess them again later. Psychology isn't an exact science (shit, it just passes as a science), but it is a very useful tool. We can identify problems with it, even if it's not massively scientific (thanks people for not being quantifiable).

[QUOTE=alexguydude;42577370]If you think an 8 year old has good judgement, why don't you give him a drivers license and a gun. It is a damn fact. 8 year olds obviously aren't fully developed in their thinking, and they won't think the same things in say, 10 years, when they're a legal adult. It's not a "I'm right, you're wrong." The entire world obviously agrees because 8 year olds don't have access to a lot of stuff for obvious reasons.[/QUOTE] There's a major fucking difference between knowing something about yourself and being responsible enough to do the things you mentioned. [QUOTE=joes33431;42577379]the answers to your questions have been posed several times in the thread. but whenever they come up, you put your hands on your ears and go "LALALALALA NOT LISTENING". you don't want to understand anything, you just want to pretend that you're right.[/QUOTE] He's acted like this in a lot of trans-related threads. As others have said, it's a wonder he's not been banned yet.

[QUOTE=joes33431;42577389]my fucking god, are you incapable of reading [U][I][B]any trans child considering hormone therapy goes through a psychological screening process[/B][/I][/U][/QUOTE] Yes but you're acting like a psychological screening process is infallible. I don't have a hard time conceiving that people have lied to doctors/psychologists to gain treatment/drugs they believe they need numerous times, so it is conceivable that someone at even a young age is capable of lying to get things they want. It is also conceivable that parents model their children to do what they want so they can get attention from their "sick kid".

[QUOTE=hexpunK;42577417]But they aren't doing anything at this stage. Just preliminary analysis of the child to see what's actually going on up there. Recognising it at an earlier age gives much better results, so what's the problem with assessment taking place this young? A trained team of psychologists who know GID will be able to give a very informed opinion. If the child insists they are trans even after assessment says no, then assess them again later.[/QUOTE] I don't see any problem at all with therapy and potential medication after a long winded, reviewed process.

it is just fucking baffling how many people on this forum are transphobic or otherwise willfully ignorant of everything relating to trans people. it's almost as if the troglodytes avoid every other SH thread and just lurk in the shadows for a trans thread to spout nonsense. [editline]help[/editline] [QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577432]Yes but you're acting like a psychological screening process is infallible. I don't have a hard time conceiving that people have lied to doctors/psychologists to gain treatment/drugs they believe they need numerous times, so it is conceivable that someone at even a young age is capable of lying to get things they want. It is also conceivable that parents model their children to do what they want so they can get attention from their "sick kid".[/QUOTE] a psychologist would be able to tell if someone was lying, or else the field of psychiatry would be complete bollocks. you're basically doubting the qualifications of a vast body of professionals because their actions don't fit your viewpoints. that's about on-par with denying climate change despite a 97% scientific consensus. you're delusional.

[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;42577401]Both of those things are social constructs, not self-awareness. We are not born knowing what a driver's license, a car, or a gun is. But we are born with a sense of our identity and sexuality. Those are things that make us who we are as individuals. So you're "argument" is more of a logical fallacy. Calm down.[/QUOTE] Not sure how a statement shows someone not being calm by saying damn, but rather your posts made in caps in half of your statements and blatant flaming does. But I digress. Beside the point, I'm not going to bother debating anymore with a transgender who is completely blinded by their emotional opinion on a topic. Wasting my time. Good day, Sir.