Girl, 8, wants to be 1st patient at SickKids transgender clinic - Polidicks

- muh automerge -

Atleast this person looks like a girl.

[QUOTE=Blind Lulu;42577441]nigerianprince I'm curious. [url]http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1997-sex-reassignment.html[/url] In this link a boy lost his penis as an infant through a failed phimosis repair. They believed that it would be for his best if they raised him as a girl since they didn't think he could live a normal life as a male without a penis. He objected to it but they continued to raise him as if he was a girl anyways and tried to convince him to have a full sex change. Did they do the right thing since children cannot make such decision about their gender identity?[/QUOTE] Well in the case of a hermaphrodite or someone who is injured I imagine surgery has to happen fairly early on. I'm fully supportive of those kind of complications being solved very early on (depending on the parents consent). I also don't think it'd be an easy question for a parent to answer, that's for sure.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577283]1. To be clear my argument was against extremely young children (8) who are not hermaphrodites having access to these drugs. I'm perfectly fine with mature adults deciding they want to change their body. From the sources I read even the blockers have numerous side effects; I'm not sure how a childs hormones being manipulated could be considered 'perfectly safe' either. 2. I don't think that situation is hypothetical. As this sort of treatment becomes more widely available there will always be cases where people regret their decision. And as much as the adverse effects may be unlikely, they still may occur. 3. I was more trying to say that the drugs in particular are something that seem to change often and may not always be the best solution. That is why I would be against extremely young children possibly irreversibly changing their body forever. Also, puberty happens naturally and isn't some disgusting element of life. Teaching kids that puberty and the associated effects (i.e. growing hair in places, body/mind changes) are 'bad' and should be 'avoided' might have consequences for future generations.[/QUOTE] 1. Why are you okay with children who are intersex having this treatment but not other children? If it's harmful surely that applies across the board? Where are these sources? Are you sure it's not for actual HRT and not hormone blockers? It's safe because it's doing exactly what it's intended to do, and is reversible. Actual puberty manipulates children's hormones just as much if not more-so than this treatment. 2. And in those cases it'll be easily reversible. Adverse effects may possibly occur (though as yet I've seen no evidence that this is the case), but one has to weigh that against the adverse effects that [I]will definitely[/I] occur if a kid with gender dysphoria is denied treatment. 3. They're the best solution we have at the moment and are pretty much as safe as anything else proscribed to children - that's why they're recommended by people who have dedicated their lives to studying the issue. If one were to base what children are given on what could hypothetically be found to be dangerous in the future, they'd never get any form of treatment at all. Puberty's fine, the problem is, like Arctic-Zone said, they're getting the wrong form of puberty. That can be extremely psychologically damaging, and forcing people to endure that because of some vague fear that something could potentially be dangerous without any evidence to back that up is unethical, IMO.

[QUOTE=alexguydude;42577209]The reason it's different is because a lot of the people in this thread identify as transgender or have friends that are, and are using their emotional nonsense over what actually makes sense logically. Can't really debate with these guys, dude.[/QUOTE] Hi I'm friends with only one person who is trans that announced she was trans way before I changed my views (I was pretty negative towards the idea that someone could choose their gender) and I think people being angry about this and claiming "IM LOGICAL AND YOU'RE NOT" need to think about what they're posting.

[QUOTE=joes33431;42577447]it is just fucking baffling how many people on this forum are transphobic or otherwise willfully ignorant of everything relating to trans people. it's almost as if the troglodytes avoid every other SH thread and just lurk in the shadows for a trans thread to spout nonsense. [editline]help[/editline] a psychologist would be able to tell if someone was lying, or else the field of psychiatry would be complete bollocks. you're basically doubting the qualifications of a vast body of professionals because their actions don't fit their viewpoints. that's about on-par with denying climate change despite a 97% scientific consensus. you're delusional.[/QUOTE] You're basically claiming that the entire medical field (including psychiatry) is completely infallible and have never made mistakes before and will never make mistakes again.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577445]I don't see any problem at all with therapy and potential medication after a long winded, reviewed process.[/QUOTE] Okay this is progress :v: Well, considering that's basically all they will be doing at this point in time, what's uproar in this thread about? No self-respecting doctor would prescribe hormone meds to a transgender pre-teen as it won't really help with anything.

[QUOTE=alexguydude;42577448]Not sure how a statement shows someone not being calm by saying damn, but rather your posts made in caps in half of your statements and blatant flaming does. But I digress. Beside the point, I'm not going to bother debating anymore with a transgender who is completely blinded by their emotional opinion on a topic. Wasting my time. Good day, Sir.[/QUOTE] I haven't posted anything in all caps? And "wasting your time" lol like you're doing anything productive being on Facepunch in a thread that you brought yourself into. Acting like your time is valuable when it isn't just makes you look pathetic. And saying "good day" like you're fucking Willy Wonka doesn't help you win an argument. Neither does purposely misgendering me.

gee, it sure smells like shit in here.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;42577481]Hi I'm friends with only one person who is trans that announced she was trans way before I changed my views (I was pretty negative towards the idea that someone could choose their gender) and I think people being angry about this and claiming "IM LOGICAL AND YOU'RE NOT" need to think about what they're posting.[/QUOTE] well, roflburger, the thing is that people CAN'T really choose their gender they can choose how they express and present, but their identity is set from early on (though i do understand if you just worded it wrong)

[QUOTE=alexguydude;42577209]The reason it's different is because a lot of the people in this thread identify as transgender or have friends that are, and are using their emotional nonsense over what actually makes sense logically. Can't really debate with these guys, dude.[/QUOTE] man, it's almost as if people don't want to be told what's best for them by people who don't understand them. wow! [editline]19th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577483]You're basically claiming that the entire medical field (including psychiatry) is completely infallible and have never made mistakes before and will never make mistakes again.[/QUOTE] you haven't provided any evidence for the existence of significant fallibility regarding psychiatric diagnoses, you're just speculating that it COULD be fallible. you have no actual reason to debate against the credibility of current theories from professionals who have actually studied psychiatry, except for your own personal biases.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;42577493]Okay this is progress :v: Well, considering that's basically all they will be doing at this point in time, what's uproar in this thread about? No self-respecting doctor would prescribe hormone meds to a transgender pre-teen as it won't really help with anything.[/QUOTE] I've been saying the entire time that I fully support transgendered people having access to therapy/surgery/medication. My only issue is with what age any actual medication starts at, and how much say a young child has in the matter. I would also consider the fact that there are doctors out there who would prescribe pretty much anything and who may not be the best in their field and may not be reputable. They do exist. [editline]20th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=joes33431;42577533]you haven't provided any evidence for the existence of significant fallibility regarding psychiatric diagnoses, you're just speculating that it COULD be fallible. you have no actual reason to debate against the credibility of current theories from professionals who have actually studied psychiatry, except for your own personal biases.[/QUOTE] Actually the story that has been linked a few times of the boy with the damaged penis is a fairly good indication that psychiatry isn't a sure thing.

[QUOTE=Blind Lulu;42577583]It's probably a closer indication that someone's gender identity is a sure thing.[/QUOTE] Yes but it still shows that the doctors can get things wrong. If doctors were completely infallible then I'm sure almost no one would be dead. That's being pretty optimistic.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577558]I've been saying the entire time that I fully support transgendered people having access to therapy/surgery/medication. My only issue is with what age any actual medication starts at, and how much say a young child has in the matter. I would also consider the fact that there are doctors out there who would prescribe pretty much anything and who may not be the best in their field and may not be reputable. They do exist.[/quote] [citation of examples relevant to hormone therapy needed] [quote]Actually the story that has been linked a few times of the boy with the damaged penis is a fairly good indication that psychiatry isn't a sure thing.[/QUOTE] it was also, what, 70 years ago? people thought that homosexuality was a disease that could be treated with shock therapy back then, too. we've made major strides.

For anyone(nigerianprince, alexguydude, and others) who thinks that gender identity is not formed that early, everyone in the field disagrees with you. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity[/url] [QUOTE]Gender identity is usually formed by age three and is extremely difficult to change after that.[2][3][4][5] The formation also commonly concludes between the ages of four and six.[6][/QUOTE] Arguing against this is a demonstration of willful ignorance, but even so I still expect you to try to claim otherwise, acting as though you have some form of high ground. You don't, this is as current medical science shows and if you disagree, you are ignoring years of research showing the same results consistently.

[QUOTE=joes33431;42577623][citation of examples relevant to hormone therapy needed] it was also, what, 70 years ago? people thought that homosexuality was a disease that could be treated with shock therapy back then, too. we've made major strides.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/06/transexualism-gender-reassignment-richard-curtis?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487[/url] Again, doctors are not infallible.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577648][url]http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/06/transexualism-gender-reassignment-richard-curtis?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487[/url] Again, doctors are not infallible.[/QUOTE] You keep saying that, but even if someone is wrong 10% of the time, people will still consider them trustworthy because the other 90% of the time they are correct.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577648][url]http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/06/transexualism-gender-reassignment-richard-curtis?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487[/url] Again, doctors are not infallible.[/QUOTE] I seriously do not understand why you keep bringing this up. What do doctors being wrong sometimes have to do with anything? [editline]asdlld[/editline] Like, no shit. If doctors were never wrong then no one would die.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577648][url]http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/06/transexualism-gender-reassignment-richard-curtis?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487[/url] Again, doctors are not infallible.[/QUOTE] and if this were anything more than a few isolated cases (which are always present in literally every field of everything), we'd be hearing about it every day on SH, because a lot of people here hate transpeople in general.

[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;42577685]I seriously do not understand why you keep bringing this up. What do doctors being wrong sometimes have to do with anything?[/QUOTE] I'm saying what if an 8 year old kid goes through with this potentially life changing decision and the doctor fucks up? What if they have adverse affects from any of the medications they are prescribed? I'm saying its a huge decision. Usually something that the parents would solely make.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577648][url]http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/06/transexualism-gender-reassignment-richard-curtis?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487[/url] Again, doctors are not infallible.[/QUOTE]Do you have your immunizations? Doctor's recommend getting them. Or are do you buy in to the psychotic "Vaccines are evil!" bullshit too?

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577712]I'm saying what if an 8 year old kid goes through with this potentially life changing decision and the doctor fucks up? What if they have adverse affects from any of the medications they are prescribed? I'm saying its a huge decision. Usually something that the parents would solely make.[/QUOTE] usually the parents have to okay it anyway so I don't see your point not like a kid's gonna sneak out in the middle of the night show up at the doctors and slowly start turning into a girl while his parents don't notice at all

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577712]I'm saying what if an 8 year old kid goes through with this potentially life changing decision and the doctor fucks up? What if they have adverse affects from any of the medications they are prescribed? I'm saying its a huge decision. Usually something that the parents would solely make.[/QUOTE] How about you read the side effects of every common medicine on the market, you know the full side effects? Every one has the potential to kill you or make your life hell. Heck in my environmental technologies class, there is a saying for toxicology, "the dose makes the poison", that phrase is nearly 500 years old.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;42577723]Do you have your immunizations? Doctor's recommend getting them. Or are do you buy in to the psychotic "Vaccines are evil!" bullshit too?[/QUOTE] Nah I took my vaccinations and I support them. I am just wary of young kids being given tons of pills.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577780]Nah I took my vaccinations and I support them. I am just wary of young kids being given tons of pills.[/QUOTE]Why do you support vaccinations? Its a cocktail shot directly in to the body.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;42577760]usually the parents have to okay it anyway so I don't see your point not like a kid's gonna sneak out in the middle of the night show up at the doctors and slowly start turning into a girl while his parents don't notice at all[/QUOTE] I'm curious as to what happens when there is a difference of opinion between parents/children in this case.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577801]I'm curious as to what happens when there is a difference of opinion between parents/children in this case.[/QUOTE] you don't need to be curious because it happens all the time. They're told it's wrong, shameful, sinful etc. and try to suppress it and generally lead unhappy lives until they're free to take control for themselves

[QUOTE=Blind Lulu;42577791]I'm not sure how it's helpful to say that doctors are fallible and then bring in parents as an example of someone who makes decisions for their children. Anyways that link was an example of a doctor who provided these sorts of treatments without any kind of counseling. I'm not sure how that applies to this thread considering that's not what's happening here.[/QUOTE] Well thats exactly the problem: -stupid kids -stupid parents -stupid doctors By opening the door to kids getting these treatments there would be room for abuse, mistakes made etc.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577780]Nah I took my vaccinations and I support them. I am just wary of young kids being given tons of pills.[/QUOTE] [URL]http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm[/URL] Hmm... Side effects everywhere. [QUOTE=nigerianprince;42577824]Well thats exactly the problem: -stupid kids -stupid parents -stupid doctors By opening the door to kids getting these treatments there would be room for abuse, mistakes made etc.[/QUOTE] Stupid kids have already been addressed, it goes through a review process first and the research shows that the kids recognize their own gender, stupid parents interfere with everything, and stupid doctors tend to lose their licenses.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;42577821]you don't need to be curious because it happens all the time. They're told it's wrong, shameful, sinful etc. and try to suppress it and generally lead unhappy lives until they're free to take control for themselves[/QUOTE] What if the parent(s) disagree with the child receiving treatment beyond therapy at such a young age?