Girl, 8, wants to be 1st patient at SickKids transgender clinic - Polidicks

[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;42573758]you talk as if the side effects are going to happen 10/10 times it's their choice if they want to risk that small chance of negative side effects have a serious effect on their wellbeing, i know it all too well. it's emotionally and physically distressing having to deal with it, but by far i'd rather be taking that medication that has a small chance of doing something bad to me, over being depressed to the point of attempted suicide[/QUOTE] Its not only the small chance of side effects, its the fact that these medications have a huge implication for the rest of some persons life. [editline]19th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;42573775]Better not take aspirin because there's a chance you'll shit or vomit blood. There's side effects for everything. It doesn't mean it will happen.[/QUOTE] But the main effects will 100% happen. From my experience an 8 year old can't even consent to taking aspirin, their parents have to consent.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42574274]Its not only the small chance of side effects, its the fact that these medications have a huge implication for the rest of some persons life.[/QUOTE] for the betterment of their mental health? is that meant to be a bad thing? they're still capable of knowing their identity before puberty. at least letting them use hormone blockers until the point where [I]you[/I] think they're for whatever reason more capable of making a decision isn't harmful.

[QUOTE=DrogenViech;42573807]he needs to be sent into a fucking actual clinic to cure whatever deeper (mental) illness there is, not some turn-me-into-the-opposite-thing-bullshit[/QUOTE] Agreed. The idea that these kids aren't being given support via counselling and other means through to a more mature age and may instead be pumped full of very serious medications from the age of 8 is disturbing in a lot of ways.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42574274]Its not only the small chance of side effects, its the fact that these medications have a huge implication for the rest of some persons life.[/QUOTE] all medications have huge implications on everyone's lives. prime example is my grandfather dying from a MRSA infection. he could either let it kill him, or take a shot in the dark to use extremely dangerous antibiotics. he took the drugs and it ended up shutting down his kidneys, killing him. but do you know what is the point? its their life so why dont you buzz the fuck out of it.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42574287]Agreed. The idea that these kids aren't being given support via counselling and other means through to a more mature age and may instead be pumped full of very serious medications from the age of 8 is disturbing in a lot of ways.[/QUOTE] they're still being counselled though?

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42574287]Agreed. The idea that these kids aren't being given support via counselling and other means through to a more mature age and may instead be pumped full of very serious medications from the age of 8 is disturbing in a lot of ways.[/QUOTE] lmao any fucking therapist or psychologist that actually study GID will tell you this is the best course of action. holy shit the whole POINT of the clinic is for counselling

[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;42574285]for the betterment of their mental health? is that meant to be a bad thing? they're still capable of knowing their identity before puberty. at least letting them use hormone blockers until the point where [I]you[/I] think they're for whatever reason more capable of making a decision isn't harmful.[/QUOTE] You mean its what you assume is the betterment of their mental health? I've known a few people who had serious mental issues and were given tons of serious medications from a young age and they turned out to have very serious issues at a later age, so I'm not sure I see the immediate benefits of giving some 8 year old a bunch of drugs. From what I understand these drugs will have a permanent affect on these people's lives regardless of if they change their mind or not, so I'm quite alarmed that people seem to think that hormone blockers are a great solution to all of lifes problems. I'm curious as to what these people did before the availability of hormone blockers and sex change operations? Before the invention of electricity how did these people cope? (keeping in mind the 75% suicide figure and all)

[QUOTE=codemaster85;42574301]lmao any fucking therapist or psychologist that actually study GID will tell you this is the best course of action.[/QUOTE] and, proof? Along with the fact that barely anyone changes their minds.

I can see this for people who have, say, an imbalance of hormones such as estrogen so that they actually think like and feel like the opposite sex, but this is a bit dumb.

[QUOTE=codemaster85;42574290]all medications have huge implications on everyone's lives. prime example is my grandfather dying from a MRSA infection. he could either let it kill him, or take a shot in the dark to use extremely dangerous antibiotics. he took the drugs and it ended up shutting down his kidneys, killing him. but do you know what is the point? its their life so why dont you buzz the fuck out of it.[/QUOTE] The point is that your grandfather is of age. An 8 year old isn't.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42574274]Its not only the small chance of side effects, its the fact that these medications have a huge implication for the rest of some persons life. [editline]19th October 2013[/editline] But the main effects will 100% happen.[/quote] Yeah, and? That's the point. [editline]asldld[/editline] You know what I don't even know why I'm bothering responding to you. You agreed with this ass backwards statement. [QUOTE=DrogenViech;42573807]he needs to be sent into a fucking actual clinic to cure whatever deeper (mental) illness there is, not some turn-me-into-the-opposite-thing-bullshit[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42574330]The point is that your grandfather is of age. An 8 year old isn't.[/QUOTE] And not to sound like an asshole, but he was at the end of his life anyway. He didn't really have much to lose.

[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;42574298]they're still being counselled though?[/QUOTE] But shouldn't counselling be the first course of action and be taken until these kids are of age? I'm all for someone who has at least hit puberty deciding their fate in some manner, but I cannot for the life of me see how a 8-12 year old would be able to make an informed decision. Surely the future livelihood of any person should take precedent front and center over them 'passing'?

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42574343]But shouldn't counselling be the first course of action and be taken until these kids are of age? I'm all for someone who has at least hit puberty deciding their fate in some manner, but I cannot for the life of me see how a 8-12 year old would be able to make an informed decision. Surely the future livelihood of any person should take precedent front and center over them 'passing'?[/QUOTE] Dude it's not like they just hand the drugs over to them. Counseling and therapy are the first course of action all the time. They have to diagnose you with gender identity disorder and, for kids especially, it can take a while.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42574343]But shouldn't counselling be the first course of action and be taken until these kids are of age? I'm all for someone who has at least hit puberty deciding their fate in some manner, but I cannot for the life of me see how a 8-12 year old would be able to make an informed decision. Surely the future livelihood of any person should take precedent front and center over them 'passing'?[/QUOTE]This is about the future livelihood of the child. How fucking hard is that to understand. This is done with trained professionals going "Yeah, this is the best course of action."

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42574314]You mean its what you assume is the betterment of their mental health? I've known a few people who had serious mental issues and were given tons of serious medications from a young age and they turned out to have very serious issues at a later age, [B]so I'm not sure I see the immediate benefits of giving some 8 year old a bunch of drugs[/B]. From what I understand these drugs will have a permanent affect on these people's lives regardless of if they change their mind or not, so I'm quite alarmed that people seem to think that hormone blockers are a great solution to all of lifes problems. I'm curious as to what these people did before the availability of hormone blockers and sex change operations? Before the invention of electricity how did these people cope? (keeping in mind the 75% suicide figure and all)[/QUOTE] implying letting them suffer crippling depression and suicidal tendencies are much much better.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42574343]But shouldn't counselling be the first course of action and be taken until these kids are of age? I'm all for someone who has at least hit puberty deciding their fate in some manner, but I cannot for the life of me see how a 8-12 year old would be able to make an informed decision. Surely the future livelihood of any person should take precedent front and center over them 'passing'?[/QUOTE] this isn't a big building full of hrt medication for kids to waltz in and grab whenever. extensive counselling and therapy takes place before they're even given the choice to start hrt

[QUOTE=Auto Taco;42574342]And not to sound like an asshole, but he was at the end of his life anyway. He didn't really have much to lose.[/QUOTE] yeah you were there, he was in good health and was recovering at 65 years old. mrsa would kill him after a long as fuck time, or he can gamble and try the drugs. youre not too bright are you.

[QUOTE=codemaster85;42574365]implying letting them suffer crippling depression and suicidal tendencies are much much better.[/QUOTE] So you're saying that letting kids know that the answer to all of life's problems are in pharmaceuticals is an idea without any potential drawbacks? [editline]19th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=FlubberNugget;42574371]this isn't a big building full of hrt medication for kids to waltz in and grab whenever. extensive counselling and therapy takes place before they're even given the choice to start hrt[/QUOTE] And given some of the alarming rates at which children are prescribed things like ADD medication etc, would you say you have complete faith in the decisions of doctors to give these drugs to children? I don't have that much faith in that side of things.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42574384]So you're saying that letting kids know that the answer to all of life's problems are in pharmaceuticals is an idea without any potential drawbacks?[/QUOTE] when it comes to gender dysphoria yeah usually medication is a massive part and solution for the problems they suffer, but nobody is saying it will cure all of their problems

The argument is kids can't decide at early ages. Contrary to popular belief kids aren't buttfuck retarded empty shells that just soak up whatever the world throws at them. You develop a sense of identity when you're 2-3 years old. Those who are aware of it early immediately can tell they don't feel right identifying as their birth sex. As they grow older and start understanding social norms (I.E. constructed gender roles) they begin to further see that they identify less as their birth sex. There was a case study a while back in where a little boy named David lost his dick to a circumcision incident. A dickhead doctor convinced the parents to convert his dick into a vagina and give him female hormones to raise him as a girl. He secretly intended to study transgenderism, but that's another story. They changed the kid's name to Brenda and raised him as a girl. Throughout her life Brenda exhibited growing behaviors that of a male, despite having her body replaced with E and T-Blockers. She was unhappy and felt wrong as a female. It wasn't until she was 14 years of age that they told her. Brenda immediately went back to identifying as male and going by David. David killed himself at about age 35. The experiment was downright cruel and inhumane, but it does help point evidence that gender identity can not be socially constructed. It highly supports that we all develop an identity at an early age. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer[/url]

[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;42574334]Yeah, and? That's the point. [editline]asldld[/editline] You know what I don't even know why I'm bothering responding to you. You agreed with this ass backwards statement.[/QUOTE] So you're saying that therapy that could solve people wanting to change gender would be worse than drugs that change your gender? I'm all for someone of age deciding that through the course of their life and their experiences that they want to change gender (say at age 16+). I'm all for someone who is homosexual being able to marry and adopt. But the idea that hormonal supplements/suppressors and permanent non-reversible surgery being the be all and end all of solutions for transgender people seems a little rash. Even the idea that this problem has been fully explored also seems a bit out there. Given the full depth of human history, and taking into account that these kind of operations and medication have only been possible relatively recently, would you say that giving people of such a young age these options is the best idea? I don't think it is the best idea. In fact, given the history of human beings I would be surprised if advancements in technology in the near future don't dwarf current understandings and methods of dealing with these issues. [editline]19th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=FlubberNugget;42574395]when it comes to gender dysphoria yeah usually medication is a massive part and solution for the problems they suffer, but nobody is saying it will cure all of their problems[/QUOTE] So if it can't answer all the problems, would you really propose it as a solution to someone of such a young age?

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;42574320]and, proof? Along with the fact that barely anyone changes their minds.[/QUOTE] well for one it does little to no damage to the body, just prevents permanent bone growth or shaping happening immediately. they dont get the actual replacement hormones till they are entering puberty, which if the kid is in therapy, the therapist can watch and see if he/she is faking it or is not sure. its really REALLY not that hard to understand and has been said in every single damn trans thread. [QUOTE]When young people start puberty and experience serious distress about their bodies developing into a gender they don't identify with, there are solutions, Leibowitz said. The medical standard established by the Endocrine Society and the World Professional Organization for Transgender Health call for treatment with hormones that suppress puberty in teens who have not yet undergone major physical changes. These treatments "buy time," Leibowitz said, preventing the development of secondary sex characteristics such as breasts or an Adam's apple while kids mature mentally enough to make decisions about whether they'd like to transition to a new gender. These treatments are reversible. At every step of the way, Leibowitz said, families and children are counseled and evaluated to be sure they're ready for treatment. Doctors counsel young children and their families, but do not treat them with drugs or hormones unless their gender identity distress persists at puberty. The cost of not treating can be high, as the new study, published today (Feb. 21) in the journal Pediatrics, highlights. "Without treatment, a lot of these kids are prone to psychiatric disorders, including depression, suicide, self-mutilation, anxiety," Leibowitz said.[/QUOTE] stop just spouting bullshit and research the topic.

as a solution to that sole problem of feeling unfit in your current body, yeah? i mean, after assesment. i wouldn't just tell any kid that feels they suffer gender dysphoria HRT medication. i'd have them run through a shrink and general therapy

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42574314]You mean its what you assume is the betterment of their mental health? I've known a few people who had serious mental issues and were given tons of serious medications from a young age and they turned out to have very serious issues at a later age, so I'm not sure I see the immediate benefits of giving some 8 year old a bunch of drugs. From what I understand these drugs will have a permanent affect on these people's lives regardless of if they change their mind or not, so I'm quite alarmed that people seem to think that hormone blockers are a great solution to all of lifes problems. I'm curious as to what these people did before the availability of hormone blockers and sex change operations? Before the invention of electricity how did these people cope? (keeping in mind the 75% suicide figure and all)[/QUOTE] well for one thing, the drugs and 8 year old COULD get (she wont until possibly 10) are easily reversible and have very little negative side effects. what they would give is peace of mind. and second, trans people existed pretty well before modern times, as long as you werent english. there are a number of ancient tribal cultures where transgender people were treated well, as they were like another woman to have help around but cant get preggo. hell even in india transwomen were treated with a lot of respect, up until the british got to them. also a few native american tribes have something called "two spirit", its what they call transpeople in their culture and they respect them quite a bit.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42574451]So you're saying that therapy that could solve people wanting to change gender would be worse than drugs that change your gender? I'm all for someone of age deciding that through the course of their life and their experiences that they want to change gender (say at age 16+). I'm all for someone who is homosexual being able to marry and adopt. But the idea that hormonal supplements/suppressors and permanent non-reversible surgery being the be all and end all of solutions for transgender people seems a little rash. Even the idea that this problem has been fully explored also seems a bit out there. Given the full depth of human history, and taking into account that these kind of operations and medication have only been possible relatively recently, would you say that giving people of such a young age these options is the best idea? I don't think it is the best idea. In fact, given the history of human beings I would be surprised if advancements in technology in the near future don't dwarf current understandings and methods of dealing with these issues. [editline]19th October 2013[/editline] So if it can't answer all the problems, would you really propose it as a solution to someone of such a young age?[/QUOTE] its not an solution, its an aid. thats like saying medication alone with all ailments is a solution.

[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;42574418]The argument is kids can't decide at early ages. Contrary to popular belief kids aren't buttfuck retarded empty shells that just soak up whatever the world throws at them. You develop a sense of identity when you're 2-3 years old. Those who are aware of it early immediately can tell they don't feel right identifying as their birth sex. As they grow older and start understanding social norms (I.E. constructed gender roles) they begin to further see that they identify less as their birth sex. There was a case study a while back in where a little boy named David lost his dick to a circumcision incident. A dickhead doctor convinced the parents to convert his dick into a vagina and give him female hormones to raise him as a girl. He secretly intended to study transgenderism, but that's another story. They changed the kid's name to Brenda and raised him as a girl. Throughout her life Brenda exhibited growing behaviors that of a male, despite having her body replaced with E and T-Blockers. She was unhappy and felt wrong as a female. It wasn't until she was 14 years of age that they told her. Brenda immediately went back to identifying as male and going by David. David killed himself at about age 35. The experiment was downright cruel and inhumane, but it does help point evidence that gender identity can not be socially constructed. It highly supports that we all develop an identity at an early age. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer[/url][/QUOTE] So your argument is that because some doctor was wrong in 1965, we should have full faith that the doctors of today (2013) are completely correct and the idea of giving young children life changing operations/drugs is all fine and dandy? [editline]19th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=codemaster85;42574484]its not an solution, its an aid. thats like saying medication alone with all ailments is a solution.[/QUOTE] Oh I understand now! It's an [I]aid[/I] which[B] permanently alters [/B]ones body! Sure doesn't sound like a solution to me! [editline]19th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=FlubberNugget;42574478]as a solution to that sole problem of feeling unfit in your current body, yeah? i mean, after assesment. i wouldn't just tell any kid that feels they suffer gender dysphoria HRT medication. i'd have them run through a shrink and general therapy[/QUOTE] For sure! Recent history has taught us that shrinks are great! If only those columbine killers had access to hormone blocking drugs on top of their antidepressents I am sure they wouldn't have shot up those schools.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42574487] For sure! Recent history has taught us that shrinks are great! If only those columbine killers had access to hormone blocking drugs on top of their antidepressents I am sure they wouldn't have shot up those schools.[/QUOTE] hoooly shit. did you really compare the columbine killers to 8 year olds with a gender disorder [editline]19th October 2013[/editline] how are psychiatrists bad in any way lmao

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42574451]So you're saying that therapy that could solve people wanting to change gender would be worse than drugs that change your gender?[/quote] There is [b][u]NO WAY[/b][/u] to "fix" gender identity disorder apart from taking hormones to transition. There is evidence out there to support transgenderism could be caused by hormonal imbalances in the brain, as well as supporting evidence that the brains of transgender individuals resemble that of the brains in the cisgender people they identify as. "Fixing" them without drugs is only putting a mental block and forcing denial which leads to a much worse outcome later on in life. [quote]I'm all for someone of age deciding that through the course of their life and their experiences that they want to change gender (say at age 16+). I'm all for someone who is homosexual being able to marry and adopt.[/quote] You're clearly not since you're making these arguments. That and the fact you believe GID can be "cured" without taking hormones. [quote]But the idea that hormonal supplements/suppressors and permanent non-reversible surgery being the be all and end all of solutions for transgender people seems a little rash. Even the idea that this problem has been fully explored also seems a bit out there.[/quote] You know why? [b]Because you aren't fucking transgender. You do not understand.[/b] [quote]Given the full depth of human history, and taking into account that these kind of operations and medication have only been possible relatively recently, would you say that giving people of such a young age these options is the best idea? I don't think it is the best idea.[/quote] Yes, it is. Because as I've said, we all develop a sense of our gender as early as 2 to 3 years old. Being transgender is not just waking up one morning saying, "I don't want to be a boy/girl anymore." There's a lot of crippling depression, self-hatred, suicidal tendencies, and much more with it. A person who thinks they are trans will eventually figure out whether they truly are or not after a few or so years. But if the problem has been persisting for many years then perhaps they really are transgender and require these hormones to be happy. Why not let them transition fully while they are still young so they can have the proper childhood and teenage years in the right body? I figured myself out at 19 after living in denial for so many years. You have no fucking idea how upset I get when I think about not growing as a female or being a teenage girl. If I think about it long enough it gets to be downright crippling. [editline]asdl[/editline] Nice job editing out all the stuff you said. Too bad I already quoted it all.

[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42574487]So your argument is that because some doctor was wrong in 1965, we should have full faith that the doctors of today (2013) are completely correct and the idea of giving young children life changing operations/drugs is all fine and dandy? [editline]19th October 2013[/editline] Oh I understand now! It's an [I]aid[/I] which[B] permanently alters [/B]ones body! Sure doesn't sound like a solution to me![/QUOTE] first of all, the argument is that gender identity is recognized extremely early and trying to force it to normal is extremely detrimental to their mental health. and second, it doesnt fucking permanently alter the body for fucks sake. why dont you get banned for not reading any argument at all, hell not even reading the articles or the subject.