• Defying protesters, Ukraine's Yanukovich meets Putin on laying grounds for a new pact
    54 replies, posted
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43119195]the best option is for the government to resign.[/QUOTE] Isn't that technically a revolution?
[QUOTE=mugofdoom;43119911]Isn't that technically a revolution?[/QUOTE] not as scorpious was implying it.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43119923]not as scorpious was implying it.[/QUOTE] If the government resigns because of the protests then scorpious' post would be correct, and this whole chain of replies would be pointless.
[QUOTE=Flash;43119431]You seriously think the European Union, and NATO will allow that to happen?[/QUOTE] That would spell the beginning of a much bigger, nastier, and more devastating conflict.
[QUOTE=HellSoldier;43119982]That would spell the beginning of a much bigger, nastier, and more devastating conflict.[/QUOTE] I've felt like we've been long due for one (not because I'm one of those idiotic anarchists that want it happening). It's just that the economic situation has left so many bitter and displeased with their governments and I'm not leaving war out of the question. It may begin as a revolution...
[QUOTE=Stopper;43120200]not because I'm one of those idiotic anarchists[/QUOTE] :(
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43120258]:([/QUOTE] Sorry - wasn't try to imply that all anarchists are idiots, just most of them. And especially the ones that think that the way to achieve their goals is through immense losses of life.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43119611]burma afghanistan central african republic china russia iraq darfur bosnia violent revolutions and rebellions tend to be the least preferable outcome for a country.[/QUOTE] Bangladesh turned out pretty good
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43119777]that lead to years of warfare and a lot of destruction. also: [IMG]http://www.mountvernon.org/sites/mountvernon.org/files/images/Whiskey_Insurrection.jpg[/IMG] [/QUOTE] Using the Whiskey Rebellion isn't a very good example of horrible violence when less than 20 people died and half of those from accidents much less an example of warfare.
If only Russia didn't have the leash so tight... I'm starting to see less and less ways to achieve the Ukrainians goals without violence... I think it's either going to go up in flames or nothing's happening at all. As much as it pains me to say, a violent revolution is a better option than economical slavery.
[QUOTE=Binladen34;43119176]uhh no very bad, cause if Putin gets control, he'll send the russian army in. Thousands would be ded.[/QUOTE] I'm quite sure you don't understand the pressure that would be on Russia to not intervene, since most of the supporters favor the EU and since Ukraine is in such a precarious position, If Russia deployed troops, and NATO deployed troops, Russia would definitely back off. They're behind technologically as well as their military strength is waning. They would literally only stand a chance if they threatened nuclear warfare, especially against the combined might of NATO and the EU. They're in no shape politically nor economically for a war of any magnitude besides some border conflicts possibly. They're almost completely surrounded, outnumbered, and outgunned.
If Russia lost the Ukraine permanently to Europe, it would hopefully help set off some dominoes among the former Soviet Republics to curtail and roll back Russian influence.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43119923]not as scorpious was implying it.[/QUOTE] In what way did I imply a violent, bloody conflict with the few words I posted? Don't put words in my mouth to cover your ass.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;43119503]That wasn't an actual revolution, just a huge protest. It was still much smaller and less violent than this one. This time people are talking about a real revolution, the civil-war kind of revolution[/QUOTE] Not much of a civil war when almost everybody supports the opposition. [editline]9th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;43120708]If Russia lost the Ukraine permanently to Europe, it would hopefully help set off some dominoes among the former Soviet Republics to curtail and roll back Russian influence.[/QUOTE] And possibly increase European influence, which would be really nice. I'd love a friendly face to offset American influence and possibly tell us to calm down with a smile.
Ukraine is better economically with Russia for now, because Russia will discount their gas prices which will make Ukrainian goods cheaper and more competitive. Yanukovich knows this, will being in the EU even benefit Ukraine? Russia would inevitably cancel any free trade treaties with Ukraine because it would allow free travel of EU goods into Russia. Russian sanctions outweigh EU longterm and future benefit.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43120258]:([/QUOTE] [t]http://s24.postimg.org/nata5u0et/yawmwen.jpg[/t] Don't worry babe, I still love you. Only on a platonic and non physical level though.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;43119861]It led to a weak government with a rushed constitution that accepted a bullshit peace treaty when they already had an armistice. Which led to Hitler. Stepping stones.[/QUOTE] You guys keep talking about Hitler like it's an inevitable pitfall of revolution. Come onnn, you guys don't give the guy enough credit :) I don't think the Weimer Republic was necessarily weak, I mean the social democrats had it going strong for some time. The Versailles treaty was a death sentence for Germany. It was a culmination of all the factors - the already weak German economy shattered by depression in the 30's, the Reichstag fire and so on. Hitler was just there to bring it all together, and he knew what to do to seize absolute power. Honestly, people like that don't come along as often as you'd think in history. I don't know if there's a "Hitler" hiding somewhere in Ukraine, but even if there is, the conditions don't seem to be right.
[QUOTE=HellSoldier;43119982]That would spell the beginning of a much bigger, nastier, and more devastating conflict.[/QUOTE] WW3 fight! ... Neutral countries have annexed the world
Some of you guys have defeatism problems.
sounds like ukraines government is only interested in entertaining ideas of trade deals with the eu just to get leverage with russia in the first place
[QUOTE=HellSoldier;43119982]That would spell the beginning of a much bigger, nastier, and more devastating conflict.[/QUOTE] World War 3 to start over Ukrainian sovereignty.
[QUOTE=laserguided;43121039]Ukraine is better economically with Russia for now, because Russia will discount their gas prices which will make Ukrainian goods cheaper and more competitive. Yanukovich knows this, will being in the EU even benefit Ukraine? Russia would inevitably cancel any free trade treaties with Ukraine because it would allow free travel of EU goods into Russia. Russian sanctions outweigh EU longterm and future benefit.[/QUOTE] Longterm, the Ukraines future is with Europe. Europe is slowly turning into a very powerful and rich federal state, and being a part of that (instead of the sluggish Russian Federation with deep social and economic problems that may take years to be fixed) will benefit the people there more than being with Russia. [editline]9th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Marbalo;43121015]Russia needs Ukraine far less than Ukarine needs Russia, and they are far better off sticking with Russia than to settle for the EU. Russia is building great things with the Eastern world with China as a significant shareholder. Best to stick with the winning team.[/QUOTE] Russia is shit and it will always be shit until the people there become politically conscious and aware enough to take control of their own destiny.
[QUOTE=laserguided;43121039]Ukraine is better economically with Russia for now, because Russia will discount their gas prices which will make Ukrainian goods cheaper and more competitive. Yanukovich knows this, will being in the EU even benefit Ukraine? Russia would inevitably cancel any free trade treaties with Ukraine because it would allow free travel of EU goods into Russia. Russian sanctions outweigh EU longterm and future benefit.[/QUOTE] I think the Ukrainian people should be allowed the choice of distancing themselves from a nation that has historically done little besides oppress them and take their grain. Regardless of the long/short-term benefits, forcing them to go one way or the other, no matter how distasteful they find it, is not the right thing to do.
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