Lithuania plans to renew military conscription amid fears over Russia
136 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Hammerz;47204389]I really don't understand what for are you trying to argue, because if the people of a democratic country do not feel as if the country is their own or they feel their country is not worth fighting for, of course they will not fight for it. There are always the means of evading mobilisation, that is not a worry. Just tell the recruiters that you hallucinate and hear voices and they won't want anything to do with you. I also can't really recall the last time "THE PEOPLE" have made an unanimous decision opposing a war.[/QUOTE]
I'm arguing that it should be the individual's choice without having to rely on flimsy medical reasons. I'm arguing that you don't need a unanimous decision, that the will of the majority should not force anyone else into military action.
[editline]24th February 2015[/editline]
I'm arguing that you shouldn't be pressured by fear of punishment to fight for a cause you don't believe in. This is a wide argument not limited to the Russian situation.
[QUOTE=Swebonny;47204313]There have also been talk about Sweden bringing back conscription. It was cancelled when it was my turn :/[/QUOTE]
what's stopping you
[QUOTE=bitches;47204517]I'm arguing that it should be the individual's choice without having to rely on flimsy medical reasons. I'm arguing that you don't need a unanimous decision, that the will of the majority should not force anyone else into military action.
[editline]24th February 2015[/editline]
I'm arguing that you shouldn't be pressured by fear of punishment to fight for a cause you don't believe in. This is a wide argument not limited to the Russian situation.[/QUOTE]
Do you think I am ecstatic about having to spend 9 to 11 months of my life sitting around and learning how to soldier? Conscription is shite, it really is, but as a citizen of a nation with a population of only 1.29 million on the doorstep of a regional power, do you think we really have a choice? I would LOVE the luxury of sticking flowers into the barrels of guns and having the peace of mind that some other chap will die for my country and having debates about the whether conscription is right or wrong, but I don't have that. Conscription is a necessity caused by the lack of resources, it is not "right" by any means, but it is something that our country needs to survive.
[QUOTE=just-a-boy;47203870]It is your duty as a citizen to uphold and help maintain the very way of life everyone is now so accostumed to, and consequently take for granted. YOU ARE the pillar that society rests upon. This is no matter of being deprived of a mere year of your time (in return for which you actually DO get fit, learn discipline and teamwork, clarity of mind and focus, and most importantly, meet fucking awesome people), no, this is about ensuring a future for our children and fellow citizens where they may have the opportunity to freely live a life of peace. But if you'd prefer to run and betray your home, you are free to do this as well - after all, the ones who ensured you this second freedom are out there, fighting for you.
This has nothing to do with politics and governments. This is about Home. What is your home worth to you?
I volunteered, and am shipping off this summer with emphasis on becoming a company medic to the toughest infantry battallion of Estonia. If Russia does go nuts and invade, I'll likely be one of the first on the frontlines, and chances are I may die. Of course I don't want to die, nobody does!, but if it happens whilst fulfilling the duties that I MUST perform in order to protect my fellows, whether too weak to fight, already by my side or just saving themselves and fleeing, then it has been a worthwhile death.
Just remember, ye of little faith, to remember the dead - they do not ask more of you.[/QUOTE]
I would be okay going to army, defending or fighting for it - IF country gave something back.
When I lived in Ukraine (20 years ago) - My family was poor as shit + got visited by criminals on jeeps with AK47's to our house during 90's because my Latvian father stired up shit, when my mother and grandmother (who's home it was) went to Police, police was bribed and didn't give a crap. I am kinda lucky I guess I am still alive with having such father.
When we moved to Latvia where i lived 12 years - Still was poor as shit, I was outcast in school (apparently because most of baltic state people are nationalists/patriotic, so if you speak Russian you are not Latvian and will be outcast in school/kindergarden). When my parents split up - court was in favour of father not to pay any maintenance to me, apparently because he's Latvian citizen and we were technically Ukrainian (there was load of bullshit, I wasn't in court room but that's what my mother and father told me later on).
So you are saying it's my duty to protect these countries which literally gave me fuck all? - No thank you.
Now I've been in Ireland for the past 8 years, this is heaven compared to where I came from, if what - I gladly pay all taxes, even water taxes (which blew up streets with protests), I am literally okay with paying any taxes government introduces, even the god damn TV license - I am okay with it because country is giving and you are welcomed here, Police isn't sided with anyone.
So yeah, not a chance I am getting even a scratch on me because of Latvia or Ukraine.
While I also agree on your point that it's a duty of yours, I know many people in Latvia and in Ireland who are Latvian Patriots, never lets speak a bad word of his country and is ready to beat you up if you say something bad towards Latvia, however - now that they heard these news they are ready to flee and change passports, sorry guys - it isnt gonna work both ways.
tl;dr - I was born in Ukraine (poor as fuck living), moved to Latvia (poor as fuck living + treated like outcast), then moved to Ireland (Where I am happy). I am not giving anything bac to Ukraine and Latvia but I am ok with giving back to Ireland.
[QUOTE=Jaanus;47203259]Absolutely worth it. Anyone who complains about the service is a twat[/QUOTE]
This pissed me off so much.
[QUOTE=bitches;47204517]I'm arguing that it should be the individual's choice without having to rely on flimsy medical reasons. I'm arguing that you don't need a unanimous decision, that the will of the majority should not force anyone else into military action.
[editline]24th February 2015[/editline]
I'm arguing that you shouldn't be pressured by fear of punishment to fight for a cause you don't believe in. This is a wide argument not limited to the Russian situation.[/QUOTE]
Of course it would be nice if people would be able to live a life relatively free of pressure, but you have to ask yourself: how much are they taking from society without returning? Nobody's going to punish you for not fighting a war, and you could say my own stupidity for choosing to fight, should it come to fighting, is being punished by having to take part in it in the first place. But I know my stupidity offers me a chance to do my part in ensuring the people who gave birth to me and brought me up receive my earnest protection and dedication to their safety. It means I KNOW I'm giving what I can to ensure my mother and father, my little sisters, my friends and all their little siblings, and my countrymen and women are spared from further loss and grief because there are yet people here who are either foolish or brave enough to face the thunder of war if it threatens their loved ones.
There's a difference between being forced to fight for what is told to you is right, and wanting to fight because you sincerely feel it is your duty to protect those who cannot protect themselves. I do not speak for everyone, but I know I speak at least for me. And I will fight even for those who wish to run. I just think it would be nice if civilized societies and the benefits they entail aren't treated as something that is taken for granted, and when the time comes to actually stand up for the world you know and love, you don't just turn tail and flee: "Hell no, this is not my fight, leave me out of it".
Civic duties should not be taken lightly, is my point. Everyone always knows their rights and freedoms, but many seem to forget their obligations and their duties.
[QUOTE=just-a-boy;47203870]It is your duty as a citizen to uphold and help maintain the very way of life everyone is now so accostumed to, and consequently take for granted. YOU ARE the pillar that society rests upon. This is no matter of being deprived of a mere year of your time (in return for which you actually DO get fit, learn discipline and teamwork, clarity of mind and focus, and most importantly, meet fucking awesome people), no, this is about ensuring a future for our children and fellow citizens where they may have the opportunity to freely live a life of peace. But if you'd prefer to run and betray your home, you are free to do this as well - after all, the ones who ensured you this second freedom are out there, fighting for you.
This has nothing to do with politics and governments. This is about Home. What is your home worth to you?
I volunteered, and am shipping off this summer with emphasis on becoming a company medic to the toughest infantry battallion of Estonia. If Russia does go nuts and invade, I'll likely be one of the first on the frontlines, and chances are I may die. Of course I don't want to die, nobody does!, but if it happens whilst fulfilling the duties that I MUST perform in order to protect my fellows, whether too weak to fight, already by my side or just saving themselves and fleeing, then it has been a worthwhile death.
Just remember, ye of little faith, to remember the dead - they do not ask more of you.[/QUOTE]
I love how you make it out as if people who don't want to die in a pointless war are cowards and traitors. I wonder where I've heard that before...
[editline]24th February 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=just-a-boy;47204678]
There's a difference between being forced to fight for [B]what is told to you is right[/B], and wanting to fight because you sincerely feel it is your duty to protect those who cannot protect themselves. I do not speak for everyone, but I know I speak at least for me.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=just-a-boy;47203870][B]It is your duty [/B]as a citizen to uphold and help maintain the very way of life everyone is now so accostumed to, and consequently take for granted. YOU ARE the pillar that society rests upon. [/QUOTE]
????????????????
[QUOTE=arleitiss;47204653]
tl;dr - I was born in Ukraine (poor as fuck living), moved to Latvia (poor as fuck living + treated like outcast), then moved to Ireland (Where I am happy). I am not giving anything bac to Ukraine and Latvia but I am ok with giving back to Ireland.[/QUOTE]
Boohoo you had bad experiences with two countries, stay in your Ireland and be happy. It's not like we all have this same negative experiences regarding our countries of origin, you are the exception rather than the rule.
man people get really emotional over stuff like this
really cool
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;47203973]It's pretty dumb that in the year 2015 there is still a risk of territorial aggression war breaking out between civilized countries.
Imagine shooting at poor bastard who was also conscripted. Imagine if you've happened to have played Counterstrike or dota with that guy before. What if he was also a facepuncher. 2015, the world is so connected but people still kill each other lol.[/QUOTE]
that feels rather...odd for a full out war between civilized nations.
Now that we are in a day in age where we all connect to people in different countries every single day, it would feel weird to actually go to war and fight them seeing that we have gotten so connected to one another.
[editline]24th February 2015[/editline]
never really thought of it like that until just now.
Its similar to when you hear stories of allied troops picking up pictures and letters from enemy families on their dead bodies. Now there is a strong chance of genuinley knowing of someone from being a part of a community on the internet for example.
[QUOTE=Saturn V;47204755]man people get really emotional over stuff like this
really cool[/QUOTE]
People get emotional when talking about their countries, their lives and the looming treat that's on their doorstep. Are you actually surprised?
[QUOTE=Explosions;47204323]I don't see how trying to defend yourself is showing fear. Fear would be capitulating/making concessions by leaving NATO and the EU and trying to forge closer ties with Russia. Do you call it fear when a schoolboy defends himself from a bully?[/QUOTE]
It's more like if a bully called you a name and you grab the nearest stick and hold it up to intimidate him. Except the bully has 3 foot and 50Kg on you and could kill you with a stare if he wanted. If you were ever actually bullied you probably know that reacting to and giving attention to a bully will just drag you deeper into that rabbit hole. Invading Lithuania or any other NATO country would likely result in a massive war (even WW3?) and doesn't matter how crazy Putin is, I don't think he is stupid enough for that.
Eastern Europe has always just been a battle-zone for the big boys during most major conflicts. Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, even Poland only re-emerging as independent countries in times of relative peace.
I'm arguing if a country should be able to conscript soldiers just so they can go down swinging.
[editline]24th February 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=cr2142;47204896]that feels rather...odd for a full out war between civilized nations.
Now that we are in a day in age where we all connect to people in different countries every single day, it would feel weird to actually go to war and fight them seeing that we have gotten so connected to one another.
[editline]24th February 2015[/editline]
never really thought of it like that until just now.
Its similar to when you hear stories of allied troops picking up pictures and letters from enemy families on their dead bodies. Now there is a strong chance of genuinley knowing of someone from being a part of a community on the internet for example.[/QUOTE]
I feel like technology has really brought us closer together and will only continue to do so. War in itself isn't as romanticized as much these days and common people are starting to see the realities of war. People want war less and less, the only one's lagging behind are the old politicians in charge.
I don't know how I feel about this honestly.
From a patriotic view, fighting for your country is the right thing to do, especially if you're its citizen so something like a military conscription seems only fair given our country's history and the world's current situation.
From different perspectives though, not only is being part of the military not the only way you can give back to your country, there are people who pretty much don't feel like they actually received anything worth serving their country for. Or perhaps they want to leave for reasons but are unable to for different reasons. What if they are just unwilling to kill?
Why should people like the latter die or fight for what they are not willing to do or views they do not agree with just because their country's government decided they should do it even though they are perfectly capable of contributing to humanity as a whole in ways other than fighting? It doesn't feel right to give the people little choice to do so without them having to resort to medical issues.
And then there's the part that other posters have brought up, where the world is mostly connected nowadays. Where you can meet pretty much anyone from any country. Would you be completely okay with going to a war against a country where people you've befriended and had good times with currently live in? Or they were part of the same community? What if they were also sent to combat?
People should be willing to fight and potentially die, not be forced to fight and potentially die because someone told them to. Which is why it's such a shame that world peace is nearly impossible without everyone dying in the process (or as a result).
Of course, my entire post is only assuming a case where a war does break out when you are conscripted.
Although, with military conscription and the worst possible outcome happening there's the plus side where shitposters such as myself will no longer be able to post. But the moderators will have to give out quite a bit of permas with the reason "Dead.". :v:
[QUOTE=WaRRioRTF;47205301]Although, with military conscription and the worst possible outcome happening there's the plus side where shitposters such as myself will no longer be able to post. But the moderators will have to give out quite a bit of permas with the reason "Dead.". :v:[/QUOTE]That would be pretty fucking grim, if every day there'd be a new batch of permabans for death.
[QUOTE=just-a-boy;47203870]It is your duty as a citizen to uphold and help maintain the very way of life everyone is now so accostumed to, and consequently take for granted. YOU ARE the pillar that society rests upon. This is no matter of being deprived of a mere year of your time (in return for which you actually DO get fit, learn discipline and teamwork, clarity of mind and focus, and most importantly, meet fucking awesome people), no, this is about ensuring a future for our children and fellow citizens where they may have the opportunity to freely live a life of peace. But if you'd prefer to run and betray your home, you are free to do this as well - after all, the ones who ensured you this second freedom are out there, fighting for you.
This has nothing to do with politics and governments. This is about Home. What is your home worth to you?
I volunteered, and am shipping off this summer with emphasis on becoming a company medic to the toughest infantry battallion of Estonia. If Russia does go nuts and invade, I'll likely be one of the first on the frontlines, and chances are I may die. Of course I don't want to die, nobody does!, but if it happens whilst fulfilling the duties that I MUST perform in order to protect my fellows, whether too weak to fight, already by my side or just saving themselves and fleeing, then it has been a worthwhile death.
Just remember, ye of little faith, to remember the dead - they do not ask more of you.[/QUOTE]
It is my duty as a citizen to pay taxes and respect the local laws. It is my duty as a human being to be kind to and not kill other human beings or take part in activities contributing to former.
[QUOTE=Buck.;47205366]It is my duty as a citizen to pay taxes and respect the local laws. It is my duty as a human being to be kind to and not kill other human beings or take part in activities contributing to former.[/QUOTE]
Taxes aren't going to help when your current way of life is threatened and a war is going on.
[QUOTE=just-a-boy;47203870]I volunteered, and am shipping off this summer with emphasis on becoming a company medic to the toughest infantry battallion of Estonia.[/QUOTE]
Kupp? Kalev? Viru? LuKo või JvKO?
[QUOTE=Ghost656;47205485]Taxes aren't going to help when your current way of life is threatened and a war is going on.[/QUOTE]
Well, taxes pay soldiers. Not only that, but the Baltic states are in NATO. Not nearly as dire as the situation in the Ukraine.
[QUOTE=Jaanus;47205606]Kupp? Kalev? Viru? LuKo või JvKO?[/QUOTE]
Kupp ahhoi.
[QUOTE=Hammerz;47204600]Do you think I am ecstatic about having to spend 9 to 11 months of my life sitting around and learning how to soldier? Conscription is shite, it really is, but as a citizen of a nation with a population of only 1.29 million on the doorstep of a regional power, do you think we really have a choice? I would LOVE the luxury of sticking flowers into the barrels of guns and having the peace of mind that some other chap will die for my country and having debates about the whether conscription is right or wrong, but I don't have that. Conscription is a necessity caused by the lack of resources, it is not "right" by any means, but it is something that our country needs to survive.[/QUOTE]
I can appreciate your meaning, but it misses the point.
Imagine if 4/5 of your country was unwilling to fight for its freedoms against a country like Russia. Would that country even deserve to survive as an international entity? If the people themselves cannot see and understand what needs to be done, so be it that the abusing power wins by choice of the people. I'm saying it's an individual's right to choose, that any "country" is just a reflection of its peoples ideas and attitudes. The survival of a country isn't important compared to the survival of its people.
[QUOTE=just-a-boy;47204678]Of course it would be nice if people would be able to live a life relatively free of pressure, but you have to ask yourself: how much are they taking from society without returning? Nobody's going to punish you for not fighting a war[/QUOTE]
What would someone be taking from society? Really? They do their jobs, get paid, buy things from other people. What are they taking from everyone else? What does one person owe another militarily? You can't even argue public services like firefighting or medical, because those come from the taxes you pay.
And yes, people do get punished for not fighting a war.
[QUOTE=just-a-boy;47203870]Just remember, ye of little faith, to remember the dead - they do not ask more of you.[/QUOTE]how anyone could ever romanticize dying in war like this is beyond me. what century are we in again?
[editline]24th February 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=bitches;47205645]The survival of a country isn't important compared to the survival of its people.[/QUOTE]couldn't have said it better myself
[QUOTE=arleitiss;47204653]I would be okay going to army, defending or fighting for it - IF country gave something back.
When I lived in Ukraine (20 years ago) - My family was poor as shit + got visited by criminals on jeeps with AK47's to our house during 90's because my Latvian father stired up shit, when my mother and grandmother (who's home it was) went to Police, police was bribed and didn't give a crap. I am kinda lucky I guess I am still alive with having such father.
When we moved to Latvia where i lived 12 years - Still was poor as shit, I was outcast in school (apparently because most of baltic state people are nationalists/patriotic, so if you speak Russian you are not Latvian and will be outcast in school/kindergarden). When my parents split up - court was in favour of father not to pay any maintenance to me, apparently because he's Latvian citizen and we were technically Ukrainian (there was load of bullshit, I wasn't in court room but that's what my mother and father told me later on).
So you are saying it's my duty to protect these countries which literally gave me fuck all? - No thank you.
Now I've been in Ireland for the past 8 years, this is heaven compared to where I came from, if what - I gladly pay all taxes, even water taxes (which blew up streets with protests), I am literally okay with paying any taxes government introduces, even the god damn TV license - I am okay with it because country is giving and you are welcomed here, Police isn't sided with anyone.
So yeah, not a chance I am getting even a scratch on me because of Latvia or Ukraine.
While I also agree on your point that it's a duty of yours, I know many people in Latvia and in Ireland who are Latvian Patriots, never lets speak a bad word of his country and is ready to beat you up if you say something bad towards Latvia, however - now that they heard these news they are ready to flee and change passports, sorry guys - it isnt gonna work both ways.
tl;dr - I was born in Ukraine (poor as fuck living), moved to Latvia (poor as fuck living + treated like outcast), then moved to Ireland (Where I am happy). I am not giving anything bac to Ukraine and Latvia but I am ok with giving back to Ireland.[/QUOTE]
I sympathize with you if you find the society has nothing much you deem worth fighting for, I do. Like I said, choose not to fight, and you're not going to be forced to. But there are those who do find something they deem worthy enough a cause to commit to. I am one of those in this case. That is all really, and I hope your future endeavors are more fortunate than your past.
[QUOTE=Stopper;47204680]I love how you make it out as if people who don't want to die in a pointless war are cowards and traitors. I wonder where I've heard that before...
[editline]24th February 2015[/editline]
????????????????[/QUOTE]
Except I'm not. Nobody has said "not one step back or I'll shoot you myself". I am merely pointing out that if you ARE enjoying the benefits and comforts of living in a civilized society (as before, assuming you are not somehow a pariah and outcast who utterly despises said society), then perhaps a modicum of respect could be shown to the people who directly contribute to keeping it that way - safe. Or in the case of outright war, doing your part to ensure the safety of those back home. Stop putting words in my mouth.
I'd understand if you were in America and you were going to be conscripted to go fight in some foreign country for some sketch reason, but the fear here is that your home is going to be invaded by a foreign power. You're obligated to try and defend your country at that point.
I love my country. I am proud of the things that set us apart from economic and militaristic superpowers like the U.S. and U.K. , of our tolerance, our multiculturalism, our freedoms, our social support. While I have no love for our current government, which has been actively working in secret to undermine all of those things, were I called to arms in the defense of this land I'd answer that call without hesitation, even if I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that we stood no chance. Dying to defend Canada and her people from foreign invaders would be a worthy death. Even if I am afraid.
[QUOTE=archangel125;47205880]I love my country. I am proud of the things that set us apart from economic and militaristic superpowers like the U.S. and U.K. , of our tolerance, our multiculturalism, our freedoms, our social support. While I have no love for our current government, which has been actively working in secret to undermine all of those things, were I called to arms in the defense of this land I'd answer that call without hesitation, even if I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that we stood no chance. Dying to defend Canada and her people from foreign invaders would be a worthy death. Even if I am afraid.[/QUOTE]
Would you take a bullet for Stephen Harper or one of his cronies?
[QUOTE=isreal?;47206000]Would you take a bullet for Stephen Harper or one of his cronies?[/QUOTE]
I'd take a bullet for my family, my friends, my way of life, and Canada's people, even if some of them were stupid enough to vote him in. Were any country to threaten Canada's sovereignty, I'd take up arms and fight. With the army, or without them, if the government was too much of a pussy to mobilize them.
if i where in a country that forced conscription i would betray it without a second thought
[QUOTE=Saturn V;47204543]what's stopping you[/QUOTE]
From enlisting? University and such. My initial plan was to do my military service right after highschool. But now I'm already 4 years into my studies and I got work lined up. I get really jealous hearing older friends talk about their time. Seemed like a great place to learn and make friends.
[QUOTE=murple;47206024]if i where in a country that forced conscription i would betray it without a second thought[/QUOTE]
When Germany was sweeping across Europe in the Second World War, many countries there mandated conscription because they no longer had the luxury of relying on volunteers. The war was going to be long and bloody, and they needed every body they could get so that the country would stand the slightest hope of coming out of the war flying the same flag it did before the war began. If you hate everything about the country in which you live, and find the values of the enemy superior, I can understand why you'd turn your back on them. If not, the only conclusion is that conscription, while very undesirable, is sometimes completely necessary.
[QUOTE=Swebonny;47206088]From enlisting? University and such. My initial plan was to do my military service right after highschool. But now I'm already 4 years into my studies and I got work lined up. I get really jealous hearing older friends talk about their time. Seemed like a great place to learn and make friends.[/QUOTE]
eh studying is way more important
you'll make friends anywhere if you got it dont get high hopes
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