Lithuania plans to renew military conscription amid fears over Russia
136 replies, posted
[QUOTE=archangel125;47206199]When Germany was sweeping across Europe in the Second World War, many countries there mandated conscription because they no longer had the luxury of relying on volunteers. The war was going to be long and bloody, and they needed every body they could get so that the country would stand the slightest hope of coming out of the war flying the same flag it did before the war began. If you hate everything about the country in which you live, and find the values of the enemy superior, I can understand why you'd turn your back on them. If not, the only conclusion is that conscription, while very undesirable, is sometimes completely necessary.[/QUOTE]
Many people don't care for who is ruling them, and would just like to get on with life.
If I lived in France when Germany invaded, I'd try fleeing the country or not resisting, like most people did.
If I was forced conscripted I would laugh since it would be utterly pointless to conscript me. I got the strength of like a 12 year old and massive eye sight issues...
[QUOTE=Valiantttt;47206313]If I was forced conscripted I would laugh since it would be utterly pointless to conscript me. I got the strength of like a 12 year old and massive eye sight issues...[/QUOTE]
Then you wouldn't get conscripted. You'd be put on civil duties.
[QUOTE=Deng;47206293]Many people don't care for who is ruling them, and would just like to get on with life.
If I lived in France when Germany invaded, I'd try fleeing the country or not resisting, like most people did.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps I'm more patriotic than most, then. You have a valid point; I only hope that most people in Canada feel much the same as I do.
[QUOTE=Valiantttt;47206313]If I was forced conscripted I would laugh since it would be utterly pointless to conscript me. I got the strength of like a 12 year old and massive eye sight issues...[/QUOTE]
Cannon fodder, not one step back conscript!
[QUOTE=bitches;47205645]I can appreciate your meaning, but it misses the point.
Imagine if 4/5 of your country was unwilling to fight for its freedoms against a country like Russia. Would that country even deserve to survive as an international entity? If the people themselves cannot see and understand what needs to be done, so be it that the abusing power wins by choice of the people. I'm saying it's an individual's right to choose, that any "country" is just a reflection of its peoples ideas and attitudes. The survival of a country isn't important compared to the survival of its people.
[/QUOTE]
In the instance you put forth the country would indeed cease existing as an international entity. But I want to add, that having the citizenship of a country kind of entails with it agreeing to the collective ideas and attitudes of the people. If you don't want to enjoy the cons of having a citizenship in a country that has conscription just refuse it.
Citizenship is NOT mandatory, it is your choice.
The survival of the people is indeed very important, very much so in a tiny nation. And one the best ways to guarantee the survival of your people (the ethnic group of Estonians in my case) is to have a strong military, show other countries you are not to mess with.
[QUOTE=Hammerz;47206410]In the instance you put forth the country would indeed cease existing as an international entity. But I want to add, that having the citizenship of a country kind of entails with it agreeing to the collective ideas and attitudes of the people. If you don't want to enjoy the cons of having a citizenship in a country that has conscription just refuse it.
Citizenship is NOT mandatory, it is your choice.
The survival of the people is indeed very important, very much so in a tiny nation. And one the best ways to guarantee the survival of your people (the ethnic group of Estonians in my case) is to have a strong military, show other countries you are not to mess with.[/QUOTE]
I'm not oblivious to the merit of your argument; however:
Why exactly should someone be forced to fight for a cause they do not believe in? I don't consider the freedoms I have to endebt me to my country, rather I believe that they were always mine. If someone tried to take them from me, I would fight back, but not for the nationalism of it.
Being born somewhere and thus having its citizenship does not mean that I should owe it anything. What alternative does someone have? It isn't easy to move to another country, or to gain citizenship to one. You could have a family that cannot move for whatever reasons.
For perspective's sake, imagine if the US had conscription. Vietnam, Afghanistan, and any future poorly conceived or outright inappropriate wars would force people here to either fight for causes that reflect governmental interests rather than civilian, or to be imprisoned for desertion, or to attempt to gain citizenship elsewhere, when it is already too late (especially considering that a minor is not about to both fully understand the situation and to arrange plans to leave).
To make matters worse, the US is a never ending pool of corruption and corporate interests. I don't feel that I've been given anything except for the slow recognition of my own rights.
I'm suggesting a democratic approach. I don't ask anyone else to fight for me. I'm not going to fight for our flag. I'll fight for the sake of freedom itself, not because I'm being [I]forced[/I] to defend [I]freedom[/I]. If that time came where I felt the need to enlist, I wouldn't be upset at others for disagreeing with the thought of giving their lives for something they feel wouldn't make a significant impact on personal life.
[editline]24th February 2015[/editline]
What do you think of this [url=http://www.constitutionfacts.com/us-constitution-amendments/proposed-amendments/]proposed[/url] (but not accepted) amendment to our constitution?
[quote]1916: all acts of war should be put to a national vote. Anyone voting yes had to register as a volunteer for service in the United States Army[/quote]
[QUOTE=bitches;47206773]I'm not oblivious to the merit of your argument; however:
Why exactly should someone be forced to fight for a cause they do not believe in? I don't consider the freedoms I have to endebt me to my country, rather I believe that they were always mine. If someone tried to take them from me, I would fight back, but not for the nationalism of it.
Being born somewhere and thus having its citizenship does not mean that I should owe it anything. What alternative does someone have? It isn't easy to move to another country, or to gain citizenship to one. You could have a family that cannot move for whatever reasons.
For perspective's sake, imagine if the US had conscription. Vietnam, Afghanistan, and any future poorly conceived or outright inappropriate wars would force people here to either fight for causes that reflect governmental interests rather than civilian, or to be imprisoned for desertion, or to attempt to gain citizenship elsewhere, when it is already too late (especially considering that a minor is not about to both fully understand the situation and to arrange plans to leave).
To make matters worse, the US is a never ending pool of corruption and corporate interests. I don't feel that I've been given anything except for the slow recognition of my own rights.
I'm suggesting a democratic approach. I don't ask anyone else to fight for me. I'm not going to fight for our flag. I'll fight for the sake of freedom itself, not because I'm being [I]forced[/I] to defend [I]freedom[/I]. If that time came where I felt the need to enlist, I wouldn't be upset at others for disagreeing with the thought of giving their lives for something they feel wouldn't make a significant impact on personal life.
[editline]24th February 2015[/editline]
What do you think of this [url=http://www.constitutionfacts.com/us-constitution-amendments/proposed-amendments/]proposed[/url] (but not accepted) amendment to our constitution?[/QUOTE]
Why do you insist on keeping your citizenship when it may cause you to go and fight in a war. You vote for the government and you take collective responsibility for the governments actions. No-one will force a minor to go and fight (unless you're literally Hitler), so people have the opportunity to sleep on it until they become adults. And yes you do owe quite a lot to the country you were born in, because they built all the infrastructure, never mind the education you got which was paid for by your country, but this argument is very subjective and leads to nowhere.
The amendment is good at heart, but there is one major flaw I spot right off the bat. The nation will be very slow to react in the case of a threat. (Imagine a situation where there are tanks rolling over the borders, but the government is occupied counting the voting ballots, lol)
I'd be a conscientious objector if things ever got that bad that the UK enforced conscription. Then again, I don't even know if they'd want trans women in the first place.
Eh, if they did let me, I'd be okay with a background role, I just wouldn't be able to deal with my actions directly leading to the death of another. It's just not something I can even comprehend, I'd spend the rest of my days thinking about it and nothing but it.
[editline]25th February 2015[/editline]
Glad to see that 100 years later, we're sticking our middle finger up at all the WWI soldiers though. Yeah, it's glorious to die in war! Dolce et decorum est and all that.
[QUOTE=Hammerz;47206881]Why do you insist on keeping your citizenship when it may cause you to go and fight in a war. You vote for the government and you take collective responsibility for the governments actions. No-one will force a minor to go and fight (unless you're literally Hitler), so people have the opportunity to sleep on it until they become adults. And yes you do owe quite a lot to the country you were born in, because they built all the infrastructure, never mind the education you got which was paid for by your country, but this argument is very subjective and leads to nowhere.
The amendment is good at heart, but there is one major flaw I spot right off the bat. The nation will be very slow to react in the case of a threat. (Imagine a situation where there are tanks rolling over the borders, but the government is occupied counting the voting ballots, lol)[/QUOTE]
I don't owe anything for the infrastructure. It was built using the tax money of people like myself. I agree to pay the tax because it is worth these things.
I didn't say anyone would make a minor fight. I said a minor will in most cases not understand global issues maturely, and once he reaches the independence age, he would be forced to fight in the military. There isn't any opportunity there to say no.
I keep my citizenship because I have no viable alternatives, but also because I do not currently feel like I'm going to be forced to fight in any war, because we have no conscription.
By no means am I responsible or collectively responsible for the actions of my government. That is insane.
[QUOTE=Hammerz;47206881]Why do you insist on keeping your citizenship when it may cause you to go and fight in a war. You vote for the government and you take collective responsibility for the governments actions. No-one will force a minor to go and fight (unless you're literally Hitler), so people have the opportunity to sleep on it until they become adults. And yes you do owe quite a lot to the country you were born in, because they built all the infrastructure, never mind the education you got which was paid for by your country, but this argument is very subjective and leads to nowhere.
The amendment is good at heart, but there is one major flaw I spot right off the bat. The nation will be very slow to react in the case of a threat. (Imagine a situation where there are tanks rolling over the borders, but the government is occupied counting the voting ballots, lol)[/QUOTE]
This kind of idealism was what left me a horrific and not nice feelings towards Latvia, every single native citizen of that country always had 1 argument: "You either follow our logic or leave the country / get citizenship somewhere else"
Perhaps if baltic states didn't have such patriotic hatred towards immigrants who - in this case don't want to go to army, if immigrants constantly wouldn't get pushed patriotic values at them with alternative being - leaving, then perhaps people would value the country more and would be ready to fight for what they have.
All I am trying to say is - Make country welcome immigrants and you are most likely to get more out of it rather than pushing your idealistic values at them with force.
Also on side note, I really doubt forcing people to go to war just because they hold citizenship of country will end up well for country itself, for example if you have people who earn decent wage (30-50k a year) and suddenly they get called in, I really don't think person will think "oh awesome", most likely: " screw this, trading decent job for barely any salary - no thanks" grab their belongings and flee the country. (In my case I already grabbed my belongings and fled, only thing that can happen is government of LV call me while I am in Ireland).
This is free world, if in every country people would think: "you live here, so you go to war if needed" then you may as well live in Ocean on a raft or something.
[QUOTE=Swebonny;47206088]From enlisting? University and such. My initial plan was to do my military service right after highschool. But now I'm already 4 years into my studies and I got work lined up. I get really jealous hearing older friends talk about their time. Seemed like a great place to learn and make friends.[/QUOTE]
Do it anyway, don't go into old age regretting not to.
That's why I'm going to talk to a recruiter this summer.
[editline]24th February 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=bitches;47205645] The survival of a country isn't important compared to the survival of its people.
[/QUOTE]
Better to live a slave than die free, eh?
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;47207595]Better to live a slave than die free, eh?[/QUOTE]
If you want to deliberately either misconstrue or refuse to read the rest of what I've said, sure.
[QUOTE=Stopper;47204680]I love how you make it out as if people who don't want to die in a pointless war are cowards and traitors. I wonder where I've heard that before...
[editline]24th February 2015[/editline]
????????????????[/QUOTE]
If you're fighting against a nation that is exhibiting imperialistic tendencies now, and as well as in the past, where your country has been annexed by them and you fear for your relative safety (and others of your nation) then it's not a pointless war.
[QUOTE=catbarf;47204123]That's a pretty shitposty way of expressing it, but yeah, I basically agree.
As an American, I think a lot of other Americans forget that when our country was founded, every able-bodied male was considered part of the militia and expected to fight if need be to defend the nation. I'm not fundamentally opposed to the draft when used in times of national crisis, I have more of an issue with drafted soldiers being sent off to fight political games as in Vietnam, and the sons of the rich and powerful escaping the draft.
I understand someone leaving a country they have no personal connection to to avoid being drafted, but fleeing your homeland because you don't want to help defend the society that made you who you are is pretty shitty.[/QUOTE]
No they weren't. The militia is the domestic military arm of the government. The constitution specifically spells out that the government has obligations to maintain a militia. Armies were for dealing with foreign problems and militias were used for defense and putting DOWN insurrection. One of the explicit powers of the president is to call forth the militia to put down insurrection. Try reading our founding documents. They are quite eloquent.
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;47203973]It's pretty dumb that in the year 2015 there is still a risk of territorial aggression war breaking out between civilized countries.
Imagine shooting at poor bastard who was also conscripted. Imagine if you've happened to have played Counterstrike or dota with that guy before. What if he was also a facepuncher. 2015, the world is so connected but people still kill each other lol.[/QUOTE]
yeah it really shook up my worldview when this entire russia/ukraine thing started. I remember when I was 16 or so I was kind of jealous of my russian friends as they got to date hot girls in ukraine.
fast forwards 20 years.
yeah likely no way in hell that's happening.
[QUOTE=arleitiss;47207591]All I am trying to say is - Make country welcome immigrants and you are most likely to get more out of it rather than pushing your idealistic values at them with force.[/QUOTE]
Knowing Latvia, we'll start becoming more welcome to immigrants after a few decades.
[QUOTE=GunFox;47208084]No they weren't. The militia is the domestic military arm of the government. The constitution specifically spells out that the government has obligations to maintain a militia. Armies were for dealing with foreign problems and militias were used for defense and putting DOWN insurrection. One of the explicit powers of the president is to call forth the militia to put down insurrection. Try reading our founding documents. They are quite eloquent.[/QUOTE]
The Second Militia Act of 1792 defined the militia as every free, able, white male between the ages of 18 and 45, and the First Militia Act gave the President the power to call the militia to put down insurrection and defend the nation against invasion. Conscription for national defense is a historic part of our society.
[QUOTE=catbarf;47210294]The Second Militia Act of 1792 defined the militia as every free, able, white male between the ages of 18 and 45, and the First Militia Act gave the President the power to call the militia to put down insurrection and defend the nation against invasion. Conscription for national defense is a historic part of our society.[/QUOTE]
Black males are not members of the militia?
upvote if u agree
[QUOTE=isreal?;47210305]Black males are not members of the militia?[/QUOTE]
The Militia Act in the next century over changed it to "all males".
[QUOTE=Flaming Neko;47210319]fuck, that [b]really[/b] sucks. i can only hope that this doesn't pass, but what the fuck do i know.
if this plan spreads over here in latvia, i'm fucked.[/QUOTE]
Just to make things worse - I don't even think you can bribe your way out of this, in Ukraine you can, it used to cost around 1000 US Dollars which may seem like small but for people in Ukraine it's on average 8-11 wages. I bet now it's gone up. But yeah I doubt it's possible to even bribe anyone in Latvia. Perhaps one choice you have is to flee and seek refuge in some country?
I mean "I am forced to go to war" is a good enough argument for refuge? or it isn't?
[QUOTE=arleitiss;47210479]Just to make things worse - I don't even think you can bribe your way out of this, in Ukraine you can, it used to cost around 1000 US Dollars which may seem like small but for people in Ukraine it's on average 8-11 wages. I bet now it's gone up. But yeah I doubt it's possible to even bribe anyone in Latvia. Perhaps one choice you have is to flee and seek refuge in some country?
I mean "I am forced to go to war" is a good enough argument for refuge? or it isn't?[/QUOTE]
The easiest way is to get the "mad-papers", by which I mean pretend to hear voices and tell the recruiters that you are mentally unstable. This can be very easily faked.
Source: Some of my acquaintances who have avoided conscription
[QUOTE=Hammerz;47211257]The easiest way is to get the "mad-papers", by which I mean pretend to hear voices and tell the recruiters that you are mentally unstable. This can be very easily faked.
Source: Some of my acquaintances who have avoided conscription[/QUOTE]
And have an additional paper citing you are a psycho which may bring complications for getting a decent workplace.
If anything, to avoid conscription, you must have eyesight -6 or worse. If you can handle faking that, or you can convince one of your GPs to get you a similar paper - freedom for you.
[QUOTE=catbarf;47210294]The Second Militia Act of 1792 defined the militia as every free, able, white male between the ages of 18 and 45, and the First Militia Act gave the President the power to call the militia to put down insurrection and defend the nation against invasion. Conscription for national defense is a historic part of our society.[/QUOTE]
When our country was founded, that was not the case. The militia acts passed years later.
Furthermore you listed every able bodied male, which wasn't true. It was every white person aged 18-45 who didn't belong to a list of certain occupations. It also required they provide themselves with a firearm and a list of other equipment, which a large percentage of the population may have been unable to afford.
They also provided training and organized them just like we do with the national guard. (because the national guard is now the militia. They are the ONLY militia.)
Conscription has been a part of American history, but make no mistake that it was [I]conscription [/I]and not just some default for American males. You are not born into the militia.
[QUOTE=Hammerz;47204600]Do you think I am ecstatic about having to spend 9 to 11 months of my life sitting around and learning how to soldier? Conscription is shite, it really is, but as a citizen of a nation with a population of only 1.29 million on the doorstep of a regional power, do you think we really have a choice? I would LOVE the luxury of sticking flowers into the barrels of guns and having the peace of mind that some other chap will die for my country and having debates about the whether conscription is right or wrong, but I don't have that. Conscription is a necessity caused by the lack of resources, it is not "right" by any means, but it is something that our country needs to survive.[/QUOTE]
1) No matter how big our military can be, it still won't be enough to deploy in response against Russia at all, which is the only potential enemy of Estonia. If anything, our soldiers will be going through a meat grinder.
2) I'd rather not fight any wars at all because in the end I'm fighting a war because of couple of old kids who are in the high up cannot solve their issues like mature human beings. One of the reasons I hate humans is because they must always be either greedy or arrogant.
[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;47211611]1) No matter how big our military can be, it still won't be enough to deploy in response against Russia at all, which is the only potential enemy of Estonia. If anything, our soldiers will be going through a meat grinder.
2) I'd rather not fight any wars at all because in the end I'm fighting a war because of couple of old kids who are in the high up cannot solve their issues like mature human beings. One of the reasons I hate humans is because they must always be either greedy or arrogant.[/QUOTE]
1) I don't understand this pessimism, this defeatist attitude. This isn't world war 1, we don't need hundreds of thousands of soldiers to win a war. Wars are won by having the technological and tactical advantage, rather than sheer manpower, and this is why we joined NATO. Russia isn't some untouchable force as you make it up to be either, because when you consider we have a natural obstacle on the majority of the eastern border (except Võru county), we have got the upper hand. We'll be the ones doing the grinding if there will be an invasion.
2)You are entitled to your opinion, and it is an understandable one at that. But let's not hold the illusion like the conflict is caused by the actions of the "old kids" in both countries. Putin has a problem, not us.
[QUOTE=arleitiss;47207591]This kind of idealism was what left me a horrific and not nice feelings towards Latvia, every single native citizen of that country always had 1 argument: "You either follow our logic or leave the country / get citizenship somewhere else"
Perhaps if baltic states didn't have such patriotic hatred towards immigrants who - in this case don't want to go to army, if immigrants constantly wouldn't get pushed patriotic values at them with alternative being - leaving, then perhaps people would value the country more and would be ready to fight for what they have.
All I am trying to say is - Make country welcome immigrants and you are most likely to get more out of it rather than pushing your idealistic values at them with force.
Also on side note, I really doubt forcing people to go to war just because they hold citizenship of country will end up well for country itself, for example if you have people who earn decent wage (30-50k a year) and suddenly they get called in, I really don't think person will think "oh awesome", most likely: " screw this, trading decent job for barely any salary - no thanks" grab their belongings and flee the country. (In my case I already grabbed my belongings and fled, only thing that can happen is government of LV call me while I am in Ireland).
This is free world, if in every country people would think: "you live here, so you go to war if needed" then you may as well live in Ocean on a raft or something.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure you might still get called in if you're in the EU.
Conscription law usually goes this way. Everyone that gets called for conscription is announced a couple of days earlier than when they need to present themselves to their assigned military unit. If the person doesn't arrive then the cops come to check up on them. If they decide the person deserted and fled, they would be added on Interpol watch.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it works someway like that
[QUOTE=Swineflu;47212038]I'm pretty sure you might still get called in if you're in the EU.
Conscription law usually goes this way. Everyone that gets called for conscription is announced a couple of days earlier than when they need to present themselves to their assigned military unit. If the person doesn't arrive then the cops come to check up on them. If they decide the person deserted and fled, they would be added on Interpol watch.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it works someway like that[/QUOTE]
That's why I am applying for Irish passport asap
[QUOTE=Hammerz;47211800]Russia isn't some untouchable force as you make it up to be either, because when you consider we have a natural obstacle on the majority of the eastern border (except Võru county), we have got the upper hand. We'll be the ones doing the grinding if there will be an invasion.[/QUOTE]
Estonia doesn't even have tanks, what kind of technological advantage are you talking about?
Russia will just wipe us with their air support after they destroy AA. Our military, in case of attack, are supposed to stand out 3 days until NATO globalizes in case of threat, but no matter how hard we'd want we're outpowered, outmaneveured and outplanned. This is one of the most upsetting things - if shit gets real, Estonia is the frontline for Russian forces, we're such a small country we'll be overrun in a day, and no matter how big hardon do you have for our military, we will never stand more than a day against Russia.
[editline]25th February 2015[/editline]
And to speak about second, Putin is wrong, Putin is right, EU is wrong, EU is right, I do not fucking care. Those are all politically backed power struggles I do not care nor do I wish meddle with. If there were a dire need to fight against, say, ISIS, or an alien invasion or some shit, I'd gladly go to the boot camp. This sort of shit? Won't give a crap. Neither of the governments ever cared for me, so neither will I.
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