Anti-Trump demonstrators set fires, break windows in California - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Katska;51350372]My tone on the electoral college issue was meant to be as neutral as possible. I'm sorry that you read into it as me whining about it. I was simply trying to state in a matter-of-fact way that if it wasn't here, the result would have been different.[/QUOTE]I read into it that way because, well, it was that way with the rest of your post. Whoops? I have to ask though, do you really think I'm wrong when I say that if the situation was reversed you wouldn't comment? [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51350379]We're talking about grown adults, not children. That guy is responsible for being a fuckwit. Trump voters are responsible for electing Trump.[/QUOTE]Yes, and you're responsible for influencing [I]some[/I] of them to do just that. I took responsibility for [I]my[/I] part of this earlier by being a third-party voter. I'm reminding you that you're not blameless in this.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51350414]So you're completely insensitive to peoples issues that arent your own and are willing to waver in standing up for the rights and well-being of others just because somebody hurt your feelings. I know its an oversimplification but come on man, I just cant respect your general attitude on this.[/QUOTE] No, he's saying that he's not willing to go out of his way to make sacrifices for people who either advocate violence against him or silently support those who do. That's what we don't like, I have no issues with supporting literally anyone as long as you're willing to speak up when they advocate against me. If your environment isn't willing to call out people who wish me harm then I have no desire to see it succeed.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;51350454]Yes, and you're responsible for influencing [I]some[/I] of them to do just that. I took responsibility for [I]my[/I] part of this earlier by being a third-party voter. I'm reminding you that you're not blameless in this.[/QUOTE] Whether or I did or did not influence people to do certain things has no bearing on whether or not they're responsible for their own actions. The Catcher in the Rye influenced someone to commit murder. That doesn't mean that J. D. Salinger is partially responsible for murder.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;51350400][B][I]I KNOW YOU KNOW HOW TO FUCKING [U]READ[/U] SO DO IT.[/I][/B] I'm sorry I needed to go through all of that effort to highlight that but come on dude. Really. This behavior is precisely what I'm talking about! This snide addiction to getting some [I]totally sick zingers[/I] in rather than sitting back and considering that I just might possibly have a point here. People on your [I]own side[/I] are echoing my words and one of them was pretty much flat-out called a Trump voter on this very page. Like you're actively proving my point here in real time. I feel so sad for the Democrats who are powerless to stop this insanity that they're stuck to, if I couldn't find humor elsewhere that would really get me down. [editline]I have a feeling I'll get ignored but whatever[/editline] Like it's this redirection that's pushed people away from being on "your side" and I'm sorry but there isn't any other way to make you see it.[/QUOTE] Oh boy here we go again with your patented "gotcha" style of post in which you talk down to who you're replying to in the most condescending way possible. Your original post that I replied to had literally none of this message behind it and is completely non-representative of anything you just said. [QUOTE]Plug your ears and scream all you want about how you did nothing wrong but the reality is you people fucked up and now you need to learn how to live with the consequences.[/QUOTE] This is what you concluded your post with. And you want me to somehow believe that you were preaching a message of unity? Every time I see you post you are always so absorbed into the idea that you are the one that is right and is trying to convince everyone else of your stance that it becomes impossible to argue with you. "Think about the fact that I maybe might have a point here" is another "zing" of irony considering that you seem to struggle with that yourself.

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;51345990]It's a reflection of what we see in real life too. I've personally had some extremely negative interactions with leftist groups in the last few years. To the extent that I will never again under any circumstance life a finger to support any LGBT or other minority group outside of a voting booth. Even now, you personally are trying to shit on people for daring to disagree with anything you say. You are doing exactly what the left has been doing for decades. You are attempting to censor discussion and quash discourse by applying nonsensical and farcically incoherent labels to those who disagree with you. And you see nothing wrong with that. That is why Trump is the president. Because you on the left have refused to engage, and made people feel oppressed and threatened. And now here you are complaining that they felt threatened enough to dare responding in kind. If you truly want to fix this instead of bleating about it, you might want to take a good hard look at a mirror.[/QUOTE] Ho ho ho that's fucking RICH. Yeah no the right's trying to actually physically PUSH POLICY that limits what certain americans can do and physically discriminating against them for downright stupid reasons, and if you voted for that, and supported that because leftists were rude and made you feel bad, you are a [B]god damn hypocrite.[/B] Something I heard repeated over and over by trump-supporting friends over the election is "actions speak louder than words." Trump was saying bad things, but Hillary had actually done bad things with her power in the past. Well now, Trump and Pence might actually do bad things, and people are pointing the finger at the left for talking smack.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51350502] Every time I see you post you are always so absorbed into the idea that you are the one that is right and is trying to convince everyone else of your stance that it becomes impossible to argue with you. "Think about the fact that I maybe might have a point here" is another "zing" of irony considering that you seem to struggle with that yourself.[/QUOTE] That's just how JJF works. He's right and you're wrong and he'll prove it in the most condescending, manic way ever because writing textbooks as responses is how you prove yourself to be correct.

[QUOTE=phygon;51350538]That's just how JJF works. He's right and you're wrong and he'll prove it in the most condescending, manic way ever because writing textbooks as responses is how you prove yourself to be correct.[/QUOTE] I'm so tired of people on FP, not just him, doing this whole [B][U][I]READDDD!!!!!!! I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT BUDDY!!![/I][/U][/B] shit. It's so obnoxious and condescending imo

Okay, listen. I get the frustration with dealing with people that don't respect you and are just constantly pissed off and screaming in your face. This exact thing has happened before on FP, and I myself was disgusted with the left when so many of them decided they knew exactly what had happened and served as judge and jury during the police scandals that kicked off BLM- it was utterly irresponsible, and I thought the left would know better as a left leaning person, myself. But in this case, you're taking a vocal angry minority most of society already doesn't like, and blaming them and wagging the finger for the victory of a group that has confirmed they will make an effort to repeal certain human rights- all because the left made people feel oppressed. There is hypocrisy here.

[QUOTE=phygon;51350137]If it were a Democratic vote, Hillary would have won. This isn't a Democratic vote, it's a Democratic Republic vote.[/QUOTE] Good thing youre too young to vote, you still need to learn how your own voting system works.

[QUOTE=Tasm;51350630]Good thing youre too young to vote, you still need to learn how your own voting system works.[/QUOTE] He can know how the voting system works and disagree with it.

As much as people have a right to no like the current establishment based on a vote so close to 50/50 and considering what I might do to trump if he wa sin a locked room aside... Rioting is not the real answer, at least not just MINDLESS violence, as a civilised society you should prove your point by being better people than the opposition, not resorting to barbarianism. If civilized protest does not make your point heard your next step is an organised movement, in effect run a political party against the establishment. If you cannot organise a movement then either A: your opinion was unpopular or B: you don't believe in your cause enough to put enough effort into getting it moving. Smashing windows and being hooligans only serves to vindicate the opposition by marking you as the "bad guys" so of course the general public will view you and your ideals negatively.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51350642]He can know how the voting system works and disagree with it.[/QUOTE] Its entirely fair. Id bet there would be no complaints from him had Hillary won. Just so happens he has a hate boner for trump so hard he'd start blaming the whole process than just accept the results. The world isnt over, we just have an idiot president for 4 years.

What a bunch of animals.

[QUOTE=Tasm;51350654]Its entirely fair. Id bet there would be no complaints from him had Hillary won. Just so happens he has a hate boner for trump so hard he'd start blaming the whole process than just accept the results.[/QUOTE] Have you missed the constant discourse over the past decade or two over the electoral college system? I wouldn't expect you to because you're Australian and all but if Trump had won the popular vote and had lost the election you would see the exact same amount if not more of the discourse over the electoral college.

[QUOTE=Tasm;51350630]Good thing youre too young to vote, you still need to learn how your own voting system works.[/QUOTE] Doesn't pointing out that it's a democratic republic rather than direct democracy kind of imply he knows how the voting system works? Don't be a dick.

[QUOTE=Tasm;51350630]Good thing youre too young to vote, you still need to learn how your own voting system works.[/QUOTE] I'm 19 and I cast my vote. We live in a democratic republic, not a democracy. You vote for your electors and the electors are the ones that actually cast the vote towards the candidate that they said they would vote for. This is a system called the electoral college. Each state is given a number of electors based upon size, with larger states having more electors than smaller states, but [I]not[/I] equally proportioned to the number of voters. A large state like California or Texas has more electors than somewhere like Arkansas, [I]but[/I] each individual vote cast by someone in Arkansas carries more weight than someone in California. If it were a democratic vote, you would simply vote for your candidate, count up the number of votes for each one, and declare the winner. If we did this, Hillary would have won. [img]http://i.imgur.com/nrt87V3.png[/img] Congratz on knowing about how US politics work

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51350498]Whether or I did or did not influence people to do certain things has no bearing on whether or not they're responsible for their own actions. The Catcher in the Rye influenced someone to commit murder. That doesn't mean that J. D. Salinger is partially responsible for murder.[/QUOTE]Kind of a stupid comparison you made there, Salinger wasn't writing the book in a furious response to the murder enthusiasts of society. Meanwhile Democrats and their antics are in response to Trump supporters and [I]their antics.[/I] So yeah, you are either responsible for this through silence or through direct action, and when you were warned fairly that this would be the end result you gave me the "adults and children" response then. So, having been proven right, why are you persisting in sticking to your rhetoric that has actually proven to be be counterproductive? Actually I'll point you to a thread from July I think where I merely said Trump could have misspoke and you and everyone else jumped down my throat. Then you said I was going through extraordinary means to "defend him" and I said no, I wasn't, I was just saying it's possible he misspoke and that [I]of all things[/I] using a slip of the tongue as damning evidence against Trump as a candidate is [B]stupid.[/B] You want an example of how you, personally, are responsible for driving people away from "your side" then there it is. [QUOTE=Duck M.;51350502]Oh boy here we go again with your patented "gotcha" style of post in which you talk down to who you're replying to in the most condescending way possible.[/QUOTE]I'll stop you right here. [I]I am frustrated with you.[/I] You've exhausted my patience, so I'm bringing out the big guns because you're not paying attention. I've explained my point to you several times and even provided a relevant example of what I was talking about, opening with "this sums it up." Your response? #NotAllDemocrats!!!! and pointing out the non-existant irony of using a clearly stated example to imply that I'm a hypocrite. Meanwhile in the process of doing that you have [I]proven my point[/I] and I said as much. That condescending reply? You earned that fairly because your post was bullshit. [editline]10th November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=phygon;51350538]That's just how JJF works. He's right and you're wrong and he'll prove it in the most condescending, manic way ever because writing textbooks as responses is how you prove yourself to be correct.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Duck M.;51350577]I'm so tired of people on FP, not just him, doing this whole [B][U][I]READDDD!!!!!!! I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT BUDDY!!![/I][/U][/B] shit. It's so obnoxious and condescending imo[/QUOTE]Then read next time and use reading comprehension to process what you've read. I'm not going to give you a nice, respectful reply if you don't extend that most basic courtesy of reading my "textbooks." You can always ignore my posts (or place me on your ignore list) if they're too much for you or if you simply don't like them, I will not hold it against you at all.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;51350688] I'll stop you right here. [I]I am frustrated with you.[/I] You've exhausted my patience, so I'm bringing out the big guns because you're not paying attention. I've explained my point to you several times and even provided a relevant example of what I was talking about, opening with "this sums it up." Your response? #NotAllDemocrats!!!! and pointing out the non-existant irony of using a clearly stated example to imply that I'm a hypocrite. Meanwhile in the process of doing that you have [I]proven my point[/I] and I said as much. That condescending reply? You earned that fairly because your post was bullshit.[/QUOTE] I had replied to you [I]once[/I] at that point in the conversation and I've exhausted your patience? Are you serious? I see the part about you "explaining my point to you several times" but I have no idea when and where you did that Also "If my posts are too much for you" lol, do you really not see where the condescension comes in here

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51350700]I had replied to you [I]once[/I] at that point in the conversation and I've exhausted your patience? Are you serious? I see the part about you "explaining my point to you several times" but I have no idea when and where you did that[/QUOTE]I'm not going to crosspost from other threads, but I assure you that [I]do[/I] have a memory longer than a few minutes. If you feel like I've somehow misinterpreted your other posts elsewhere then I apologize, that happens sometimes. Even if this happened in a vacuum your singular post would have been sufficient for me to lose my patience. [editline]editing[/editline] [QUOTE]Also "If my posts are too much for you" lol, do you really not see where the condescension comes in here[/QUOTE]Well, are they? If you're reading a condescending tone in that then that's entirely on you, but I left it ambiguous precisely because I'm not going to assume things on your behalf.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;51350716]I'm not going to crosspost from other threads, but I assure you that [I]do[/I] have a memory longer than a few minutes. If you feel like I've somehow misinterpreted your other posts elsewhere then I apologize, that happens sometimes. Even if this happened in a vacuum your singular post would have been sufficient for me to lose my patience.[/QUOTE] It really wouldnt have. Would it kill you to have some patience with people and clear up misconceptions in posts and wording before flying off the handle all the time? You do realize that language, especially when it written form can fail to convey things to the flawless extent that you meant it to right

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51350725]It really wouldnt have. Would it kill you to have some patience with people and clear up misconceptions in posts and wording before flying off the handle all the time? You do realize that language, especially when it written form can fail to convey things to the flawless extent that you meant it to right[/QUOTE]Would it kill you to do the same, while also reading my posts in full and [I]not[/I] misrepresenting them to paint me as a hypocrite? That was more than enough for my reaction and I think I've gotten your attention now so I think it was worth it. You can accuse me of being condescending, aggressive in my arguments, or just otherwise [I]a dick[/I] but I do read what you have to say, digest it, and reply accordingly. Very rarely do I gloss over a post, and when I do I state why. I didn't fly off the handle at all, I answered you completely but you seem to have an issue more with reminding you to [U]read[/U] than my actual message. All I want is the courtesy I give you. [editline]10th November 2016[/editline] Which, by the way, was my original point. It's the never-ending attempts at character assassination that have alienated people and pushed them to the other side. I used that anecdote as an example of the behavior, and in my reply to you I used your response as another example; I'm doing it right now as well.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51350339][B]So one person[/B] says something dumb and your reaction is to say "[U]all[/U] of you fucked up and its time to live with the consequences"? I hope you know how hilariously ironic that is given the circumstances of the discussion.[/QUOTE] It's not one person. It's a systemic problem with how the left has come to engage in discussion. Literally the first fucking thing out of a leftists mouth is more often than not some belittling insult or guilt trip trying to coerce you to fall in line. Oh that's misogynist. That's racist. That's the patriarchy. It's all the same. Lets compare this to relationships. I won't let you leave. You don't deserve to have an opinion. You are ignorant and too stupid too think for yourself. It's belittling and manipulative. If your boyfriend/girlfriend pulled that kind of shit it would be considered outright emotional abuse, but somehow it's perfectly fine when a political party attempts to deny agency to people? Sorry, but that's utter bullshit.

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;51350936]It's not one person. It's a systemic problem with how the left has come to engage in discussion. Literally the first fucking thing out of a leftists mouth is more often than not some belittling insult or guilt trip trying to coerce you to fall in line. Oh that's misogynist. That's racist. That's the patriarchy. It's all the same. Lets compare this to relationships. I won't let you leave. You don't deserve to have an opinion. You are ignorant and too stupid too think for yourself. It's belittling and manipulative. If your boyfriend/girlfriend pulled that kind of shit it would be considered outright emotional abuse, but somehow it's perfectly fine when a political party attempts to deny agency to people? Sorry, but that's utter bullshit.[/QUOTE] I'm not going to defend what happened to you personally, but I think it's even more bullshit to say "ergo, vote Trump" when denying agency and choice to certain groups is literally part of his platform, not just a factor of rudeness and moral highground.

[QUOTE=Simplemac3;51350608]Okay, listen. I get the frustration with dealing with people that don't respect you and are just constantly pissed off and screaming in your face. This exact thing has happened before on FP, and I myself was disgusted with the left when so many of them decided they knew exactly what had happened and served as judge and jury during the police scandals that kicked off BLM- it was utterly irresponsible, and I thought the left would know better as a left leaning person, myself. But in this case, you're taking a vocal angry minority most of society already doesn't like, and blaming them and wagging the finger for the victory of a group that has confirmed they will make an effort to repeal certain human rights- all because the left made people feel oppressed. There is hypocrisy here.[/QUOTE] You're right. There is hypocrisy there. But it doesn't matter if you can't put forward a solid argument. The majority powers can act very poorly if they want and enjoy near total impunity. If you dismiss them out of hand with poor reasoning, or dismissive behavior, they can point to that as a justification for their beliefs, because no matter how fucking absurd their position is, if yours isn't perfect, they don't look insane when they reject it. Blindly labeling things as sexist, racist, homophobic, etc, only makes you look ridiculous. Until you stop seeming ridiculous, even reasoned minds can't convince their own peers of the absurdity of their views. It isn't 'right' and it sure as shit isn't fair, but that is the way it is.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;51350767]Would it kill you to do the same, while also reading my posts in full and [I]not[/I] misrepresenting them to paint me as a hypocrite? That was more than enough for my reaction and I think I've gotten your attention now so I think it was worth it. You can accuse me of being condescending, aggressive in my arguments, or just otherwise [I]a dick[/I] but I do read what you have to say, digest it, and reply accordingly. Very rarely do I gloss over a post, and when I do I state why. I didn't fly off the handle at all, I answered you completely but you seem to have an issue more with reminding you to [U]read[/U] than my actual message. All I want is the courtesy I give you. [editline]10th November 2016[/editline] Which, by the way, was my original point. It's the never-ending attempts at character assassination that have alienated people and pushed them to the other side. I used that anecdote as an example of the behavior, and in my reply to you I used your response as another example; I'm doing it right now as well.[/QUOTE] If I misrepresented your post, I apologize. Your post seemed like it was in opposition to mine and I disagreed with your final point, but I think we can both take things away from this interaction. I respect your opinion, but in the most respectful way possible I do wish you would be a bit less inflammatory in your SH posts sometimes.

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;51351028]You're right. There is hypocrisy there. But it doesn't matter if you can't put forward a solid argument. The majority powers can act very poorly if they want and enjoy near total impunity. If you dismiss them out of hand with poor reasoning, or dismissive behavior, they can point to that as a justification for their beliefs, because no matter how fucking absurd their position is, if yours isn't perfect, they don't look insane when they reject it. Blindly labeling things as sexist, racist, homophobic, etc, only makes you look ridiculous. Until you stop seeming ridiculous, even reasoned minds can't convince their own peers of the absurdity of their views. It isn't 'right' and it sure as shit isn't fair, but that is the way it is.[/QUOTE] The big thing I disagree with that I've heard is saying the snobby left is 100% responsible for this and the voting man carries little to no blame, I guess. I don't really disagree that there are leftist elements that are acting ridiculous and that they at least partially contributed to the result, but the population that actually went out and voted for him with certain potential policies of his in mind have to carry some blame, and I think to say otherwise would be ridiculous in itself.

[QUOTE=Simplemac3;51352058]The big thing I disagree with that I've heard is saying the snobby left is 100% responsible for this and the voting man carries little to no blame, I guess. I don't really disagree that there are leftist elements that are acting ridiculous and that they at least partially contributed to the result, but the population that actually went out and voted for him with certain potential policies of his in mind have to carry some blame, and I think to say otherwise would be ridiculous in itself.[/QUOTE] Certainly. They bear a portion of blame for choosing to actively vote for such an awful candidate instead of standing on the sidelines or voting for someone at least somewhat less insane. At the same time, being calm and collected when you feel threatened and repressed isn't something most people are capable of doing. When you feel backed into a corner, your basic biology kicks in and you feel a need to lash out. That's why the radical left is behaving the way it is as well. They feel just as terrified, if not more so, and for damn good reasons. The difference is, the majority wields more power than the minority through simple numbers. As such, the majority can get away with wielding that power over the minority by crushing opposition with sheer mass. As long as all other factors are equal, the majority will almost never lose. It might not 'win' in the sense that equality is possible without subjugation, but a 'draw' for lack of a better term isn't a loss. The playing field is skewed in favor of the majority. It simply isn't level, and behaving like it is, or worse, playing like it's slanted the other way, is self destructive to any minority movement. As a minority group, you simply cannot get away with being as insane, let alone more insane, as your opposition. If you are unable to claim moral and rational superiority, you are stuck fighting an uphill battle of sheer numbers in the best case. It doesn't matter if that majority is white, black, hispanic, straight, poly, christian, muslim, jewish or whatever. All majorities in a system with even remotely equal representation have this power.

I feel like I needed some time to cool down a little, and now that I have, I guess I want to say this: [QUOTE=Simplemac3;51352058]The big thing I disagree with that I've heard is saying the snobby left is 100% responsible for this and the voting man carries little to no blame, I guess. I don't really disagree that there are leftist elements that are acting ridiculous and that they at least partially contributed to the result, but the population that actually went out and voted for him with certain potential policies of his in mind have to carry some blame, and I think to say otherwise would be ridiculous in itself.[/QUOTE] This is more or less how I feel about the whole thing ultimately. I think when I started responding to people about this I started letting my frustration over a lot of things related to this election get the better of me and I lost my original point somewhere and said some things that probably could have been more well thought out. I do think we can do better to try to be constructive in a positive way towards people who's views we oppose, at the very least because I think we can accomplish more that way. I do think it is possible that our failure to do so may have had some impact on the result, with how close it was, but I still think that there are many factors at play here and that it is not entirely honest to try to imply that that factor would be the only one that mattered, or to shift the entire blame onto us. [editline]ashita ga aru sa[/editline] I got angry because this is something I've actually been thinking about for a while, and I kept seeing people (not all of you who made this point) who, quite honestly, were not really in a position to be preaching about being kind and patient with others use that same reasoning against me to seemingly try to shield themselves from blame or criticism. And when quite a few of them voted for an outcome that has now cast very real uncertainty on my future well-being, well, it was like salt in the wound, I guess. I hope people can understand why this got me upset.