France: Windows 10 collects 'excessive personal data', issues Microsoft with formal warning - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Map in a box;50748124]linux needs to restart for kernel updates most linux updates are just updating packages which are often not in use[/QUOTE] It needs to restart eventually but it's not like windows where it shuts down and then the system is unusable until the update has finished installing. You can update the kernel and the new kernel will just sit there until you restart it, where it will immediately begin working

[QUOTE=Map in a box;50748124]linux needs to restart for kernel updates most linux updates are just updating packages which are often not in use[/QUOTE] We're talking from a convenience standpoint. And since we're discussing about the latest system releases, Linux 4.0 onwards has no-reboot kernel patching.

[QUOTE=Mattk50;50748001]Windows 10 home edition doesnt even let you disable automatic updates without third party tools.[/QUOTE] [t]https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8873/28343940255_d975d40898_o.png[/t] :what:

[QUOTE=phygon;50748148]It needs to restart eventually but it's not like windows where it shuts down and then the system is unusable until the update has finished installing. You can update the kernel and the new kernel will just sit there until you restart it, where it will immediately begin working[/QUOTE] and it always schedules it when you're not working and you can always adjust when it does it [editline]21st July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Nabile13;50748154]We're talking from a convenience standpoint. And since we're discussing about the latest system releases, Linux 4.0 onwards has no-reboot kernel patching.[/QUOTE] Interesting, wasn't aware of that, thats pretty interesting

[QUOTE=phygon;50748119]It [I]IS[/I] inconvenient. It shuts down whatever you're doing with nothing more than a five-minute warning (that pops up in the background on many fullscreen games), and then prevents you from using your computer for potentially HOURS while it installs whatever it has to. [editline]21st July 2016[/editline] Remember that unlike linux, Windows needs a restart for updates.[/QUOTE] I've been using Windows 10 since the early insider previews, across multiple computers. I have [I]never once [/I]had it force a restart and an update on me in the background. From what I know, that only happens if you put off updates for weeks on end. [QUOTE=WillerinV1.02;50748056]While I heavily doubt that people are complaining about getting compromised after disabling updates, it doesn't matter. [I]You should be able to turn off updates in-system no matter what.[/I][/QUOTE] Clearly you've never worked in a tech support position. I agree, you should be able to turn off updates, honestly. But I understand whole-heartedly why it is the way it is. [B]Most computer users are fucking retarded.[/B]

[QUOTE=Lyokanthrope;50748198] Clearly you've never worked in a tech support position. I agree, you should be able to turn off updates, honestly. But I understand whole-heartedly why it is the way it is. [B]Most computer users are fucking retarded.[/B][/QUOTE] I don't think you agree that you should be able to turn off updates if you turn around and say, in the same post, "yeah well people are too retarded to be trusted with turning off updates". Like I don't wanna come across as aggressive but this mindset of "you can't handle your own operating system better have features, accessibility and options stripped away for your own safety!!!" can fuck off imo.

That's sadly just the way our culture is going. Lowest common denominator, etc. For the rest of us, at least there's Linux. And plenty of third party ways to turn this shit off, anyway.

Those ways often don't work perfectly and can result in breakage tho. I hope France gets something good out of this, ideally imo it'd be an opt-in system you can choose to allow when installing, and not opt-out* with no real transparency about what data is actually sent.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;50748225]Those ways often don't work perfectly and can result in breakage tho. I hope France gets something good out of this, ideally imo it'd be an opt-in system you can choose to allow when installing, and not opt-out* with no real transparency about what data is actually sent.[/QUOTE] Then the same things should at least apply to virtually every other technology company that tracks their user's information by default within their products. Google, Apple, Amazon and Facebook, just to name a handful.

[QUOTE=Foda;50747813]specifically it's for battery life so they can determine what cases to optimize for. Edit: I should also point out that no one has really determined what data is specifically sent[/QUOTE] I can tell you google knows how much selfies are being taken although this will probably only count for images that are sync'd to picassa

[QUOTE=Lyokanthrope;50748231]Then the same things should at least apply to virtually every other technology company that tracks their user's information by default within their products. Google, Apple, Amazon and Facebook, just to name a handful.[/QUOTE] Sure, why not. Firefox and various Linux distros do this for example, and the EU already requires websites to say that they're placing cookies on your computer. Hell, even MacOS does this IIRC.

[QUOTE=Lyokanthrope;50748198] I have [I]never once [/I]had it force a restart and an update on me in the background. From what I know, that only happens if you put off updates for weeks on end. [/QUOTE] Happened to me while I was playing overwatch comp the other day, and I always keep my system up to date.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;50748235]Sure, why not. Firefox and various Linux distros do this for example, and the EU already requires websites to say that they're placing cookies on your computer. Hell, even MacOS does this IIRC.[/QUOTE] Funny how most of that is already opt-out though. Firefox has a 'health report' (sorry, telemetry is actually disabled by default!) sent by default, just gives you a little thing saying "Hey, check out these settings!" when you first run it - Kind of like what Windows OOBE does when you set it up for the first time. Though it was removed recently Unity sent all your search results to Amazon by default without even really saying anything about it. Gg canonical for removing it, though. And you can't exactly opt out of getting cookies without using a third party tool or utility to begin with. As for MacOS, I'm pretty sure it sends telemetry and other information by default as well, regardless if you have an iCloud (or whatever it's called right now?) account. [editline]21st July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=phygon;50748243]Happened to me while I was playing overwatch comp the other day, and I always keep my system up to date.[/QUOTE] That's unfortunate. Dunno what to tell you, maybe try sending Feedback about it.

[QUOTE=Lyokanthrope;50748252]Funny how most of that is already opt-out though. Firefox has telemetry and other stuff sent by default, just gives you a little thing saying "Hey, check out these settings!" when you first run it - Kind of like what Windows OOBE does when you set it up for the first time. Though it was removed recently Unity sent all your search results to Amazon by default without even really saying anything about it. Gg canonical for removing it, though. And you can't exactly opt out of getting cookies without using a third party tool or utility to begin with. As for MacOS, I'm pretty sure it sends telemetry and other information by default as well, regardless if you have an iCloud (or whatever it's called right now?) account.[/QUOTE] Well, Apple could be lying/misleading. Such is the nature of proprietary software. But when installing, they do give you one checkbox on a page that pops up and says "hey, apple would like this data, wanna give it to us b?" Also yeah opt-in was incorrect wording, but basically, I mean not a pain in the ass, unlike Windows, who separate it all into many different places and don't even let the user turn it all off unless you wanna hand them extra money for enterprise. Also I think you can opt out of cookies without an addon with chrome now, the exclamation point by the URL lets you tweak that and javascript and such. I use chromium when I use chrome though so perhaps it's not there in chrome. If not that's kinda sad because it's neat that it gets rid of the need for addons like noscript.

[QUOTE=WillerinV1.02;50747926]It seems overkill but it really shouldn't be. You shouldn't need to go through that much effort to keep such simple things private.[/QUOTE] jokes on them, it probably doesn't work as well as they think and that's fucking awful to think about

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;50748272]Well, Apple could be lying/misleading. Such is the nature of proprietary software. But when installing, they do give you one checkbox on a page that pops up and says "hey, apple would like this data, wanna give it to us b?" Also yeah opt-in was incorrect wording, but basically, I mean not a pain in the ass, unlike Windows, who separate it all into many different places and don't even let the user turn it all off unless you wanna hand them extra money for enterprise. Also I think you can opt out of cookies without an addon with chrome now, the exclamation point by the URL lets you tweak that and javascript and such. I use chromium when I use chrome though so perhaps it's not there in chrome. If not that's kinda sad because it's neat that it gets rid of the need for addons like noscript.[/QUOTE] opting out of cookies does little to stop websites from doing telemetry on the users lol

[QUOTE=Map in a box;50748316]opting out of cookies does little to stop websites from doing telemetry on the users lol[/QUOTE] Good thing that was only referring to him saying that third party utilities are required to block them.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;50748350]Good thing that was only referring to him saying that third party utilities are required to block them.[/QUOTE] good thing i wasn't directly talking about his point but rather on the topic at hand

[QUOTE=Map in a box;50748359]good thing i wasn't directly talking about his point but rather on the topic at hand[/QUOTE] I don't think anyone claimed that blocking cookies restores all of your privacy, or hell, even a lot of it.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;50748373]I don't think anyone claimed that blocking cookies restores all of your privacy, or hell, even a lot of it.[/QUOTE] no but its certainly implied so whats wrong with me bringing a new point to the table given its a, you know, forum?

[QUOTE=Map in a box;50748391]no but its certainly implied so whats wrong with me bringing a new point to the table given its a, you know, forum?[/QUOTE] was it? and there's nothing wrong with bringing up new points. But all you really did was make an assumption about what someone said in a snide way. If I really need to clarify what I meant, I meant that the EU's policy was a start that could lead to potentially stronger privacy laws.

[QUOTE=anthonywolfe;50748182][t]https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8873/28343940255_d975d40898_o.png[/t] :what:[/QUOTE] (thought that was an enterprise screenshot, nevermind) You know windows update will activate regardless, right? Microsoft likes forcing services like that online when they notice they're disabled, it happens on 8.

[QUOTE=Lyokanthrope;50748007]Yeah, because home users are fucking retards who think windows update is 'inconvenient' and turn it off,[/QUOTE]So they're so inept you need to keep them from hurting themselves, they don't know how to computer basically. Right, got it. [QUOTE=Lyokanthrope;50748007]then complain when they get compromised and blame Microsoft for having an insecure OS. :v:[/QUOTE]So these same people who are apparently mentally retarded aren't going to blame Microsoft when bad things happen to their computer no matter what? No, they're still going to blame Microsoft regardless of the settings so defending Microsoft's precious honor is a really shit reason to prevent people from adjusting the settings on something they own. Technically the manufacturer of my refrigerator doesn't want me fucking with the compressor, technically the manufacturer can fuck off and I did it anyway and now I have a functioning refrigerator.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;50748641]So they're so inept you need to keep them from hurting themselves, they don't know how to computer basically. Right, got it.[/QUOTE] Seems about right.

[QUOTE=J!NX;50748291]jokes on them, it probably doesn't work as well as they think and that's fucking awful to think about[/QUOTE] If I'm not allowing scripts to run on the sites and my IP isn't my real IP and I'm not accepting cookies, what can they possibly track? Of course I don't live my every day to day life with all that on, but for most parts of the internet I do.

Make it simple MS. Give a nice little option to either send data to you, or send nothing at all. The only thing I want sent to those shits is my request to download an update. They can pull their diagnostic telemetry crap from someone else.

[QUOTE=redBadger;50747922]Call me ignorant, I just don't get the paranoia. I disable the features to send data but if I missed something or data is getting sent why should I care?[/QUOTE] You disable it yet you're arguing against it. Meanwhile I completely disagree with you and yet if Microsoft was actually transparent and more user-friendly about it I'd personally be far more likely to actually enable a lot of this stuff. That's how it worked for me with Firefox. I went and sifted through the about:whatever pages for each of their different telemetry options and decided it was nothing I had a problem sharing (especially since they gave me easy options to disable it and let me see exactly what data they would be taking) so I enabled them. [QUOTE=anthonywolfe;50748182][t]https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8873/28343940255_d975d40898_o.png[/t] :what:[/QUOTE] In addition to what Mattk50 said you should also keep in mind that most people aren't going to be aware they can disable it that way anyways. But what Mattk50 said is kinda the main argument here. Windows will simply do what Microsoft tells it regardless of what you've told it to do. I seized control of the Cortana folder from Windows because I don't see why something I disabled should be sitting in my task list eating up resources and yet despite having absolutely no permissions to access the folder and setting the blank exes I dumped in the folder to read-only Windows still replaced it when it updated because it couldn't care less about permissions. [QUOTE=Lyokanthrope;50748198]I've been using Windows 10 since the early insider previews, across multiple computers. I have [I]never once [/I]had it force a restart and an update on me in the background. From what I know, that only happens if you put off updates for weeks on end.[/QUOTE] I had it reboot on me without warning one time. Though it was mostly because Windows was totally retarded. It asked me to schedule an update then gave me a suggested time and refused to let me schedule any other time. When I went to shut my computer off well before that time I chose the "update and shutdown" option from the win+x menu. Since I walked away from my computer while it was shutting down I missed the fact that it decided to wait on updating for who knows what reason. Cue the next day I'm playing a game and Windows decides "hey, we're updating now! Hope you weren't doing something important!!" [QUOTE=Lyokanthrope;50748231]Then the same things should at least apply to virtually every other technology company that tracks their user's information by default within their products. Google, Apple, Amazon and Facebook, just to name a handful.[/QUOTE] Pretty sure none of us are saying otherwise? Personally I think any kind of tracking needs to have easy and straight forward options to disable it and it needs a way to show you exactly what data they are taking. I don't even mind if they enable it by default as long as they meet those other requirements.

[QUOTE=Mattk50;50748459](thought that was an enterprise screenshot, nevermind) You know windows update will activate regardless, right? Microsoft likes forcing services like that online when they notice they're disabled, it happens on 8.[/QUOTE] Not in my experience, I've had the Updates disabled like that on one of the computers I prefer to keep up for long periods of time and I've had several updates on my laptop while that one hasn't updated since some time before April.

[QUOTE=phygon;50748856]If I'm not allowing scripts to run on the sites and my IP isn't my real IP and I'm not accepting cookies, what can they possibly track? Of course I don't live my every day to day life with all that on, but for most parts of the internet I do.[/QUOTE] as long as your ip is constant, they can get a profile on you. in addition, [url]http://sourcefrog.net/projects/meantime/[/url] its really not a big deal regardless

[QUOTE=Alice3173;50749623] Pretty sure none of us are saying otherwise? Personally I think any kind of tracking needs to have easy and straight forward options to disable it and it needs a way to show you exactly what data they are taking. I don't even mind if they enable it by default as long as they meet those other requirements.[/QUOTE] Yeah, I know no-one here directly said otherwise but I know a [I]lot[/I] of people who will take it to Facebook and etc complaining about only Microsoft which makes me wanna slap them :v: If you're gonna get mad about privacy related issues, don't be selective. [editline]21st July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;50748641] So these same people who are apparently mentally retarded aren't going to blame Microsoft when bad things happen to their computer no matter what? No, they're still going to blame Microsoft regardless of the settings so defending Microsoft's precious honor is a really shit reason to prevent people from adjusting the settings on something they own. Technically the manufacturer of my refrigerator doesn't want me fucking with the compressor, technically the manufacturer can fuck off and I did it anyway and now I have a functioning refrigerator.[/QUOTE] It's not like Microsoft directly stops you from doing this. There's various workarounds both within and outside of the system in group policy, in the registry, there's third party utilities and patches, and even good 'ol hosts blocking. Before you say you shouldn't need a workaround I'm just gonna point to your refrigerator argument here. Very few people repair their shit themselves. If the compressor in their fridge stops working, they're not likely to disassemble it and fix it themselves, they're going to have someone else do it, and it'll probably be a bodge job anyway. By and large, it's an 'advanced' thing. Probably voids your warranty (if you have one) too.