[QUOTE=sgman91;42159144]There's no reason to assume that, in an ideal world without any sexism, the same number of women would want to be in the tech field as men.
Any argument that rests on that assumption, such as: "There are less women then men in the tech industry, therefore it is sexist" doesn't hold any water. This isn't denying that sexism doesn't exist, but that line of reasoning is bunk.[/QUOTE]
yes there is (because otherwise it wouldnt be an ideal world you dumbass)
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;42173668]who am I claiming to represent again[/QUOTE]
every woman, transgender person and otherwise unprivileged person in the entire known universe?
[QUOTE=PSI Guy;42175770]every woman, transgender person and otherwise unprivileged person in the entire known universe?[/QUOTE]
you don't need to represent women to understand that they should still have a choice in abortion, it's the same thing here
[QUOTE=Cone;42175809]you don't need to represent women to understand that they should still have a choice in abortion, it's the same thing here[/QUOTE]
i was referring to his actions in threads other than this one (hence the unprivileged persons comment) but thanks for the update
[QUOTE=PSI Guy;42175770]every woman, transgender person and otherwise unprivileged person in the entire known universe?[/QUOTE]
nope
A vicious circle. Women don't go into IT and tech in general because it's a men dominated field, and it is so because women don't go into IT and tech in general.
Every time a discussion about this spawns I'm breaking my head thinking about how this situation can be realistically fixed without making quotas or other stupid bullshit.
[QUOTE=Valnar;42173264]Well obviously its because men just naturally don't want to be in those fields right?
There just couldn't possibly be any other explanation that could relate it to the topic in the OP.
Nothing about gender roles or anything.[/QUOTE]
I am confident enough to say that there are topics such as this that would interest me. Not this specifically, but there are topics similar that are dominated by women.
This is just my experience, but it seems things such as this are 'unmanly' and many people have a tendency not to enjoy something just because of it's reputation. This is something I continue to work to avoid. Perhaps this is one reason women aren't in the tech industry. I could be entirely wrong about it's relation to IT, but it's still a valid thought.
This is an example. I enjoy this song. If I was watching this next to a bunch of other guys, I would look girly and would feel as if they are labeling me as 'unmanly'. It's the same concept, and you can't deny things like this exist. Not saying I like barbies, some people do, but if you did, you wouldn't be playing with them in front of all your friends, would you?
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzC4hFK5P3g"]The song in question.[/URL]
[editline]13th September 2013[/editline]
It's an easy concept to understand, and you can't judge me for what I enjoy doing, listening to, or like. I believe it's the pressure put down on people by the genre-specific roles set in society.
[editline]13th September 2013[/editline]
Think of gender roles in society when reading [URL="http://wac.colostate.edu/books/writingspaces1/dirk--navigating-genres.pdf"]this[/URL] and you could have a good idea of what I mean. Also consider whether or not this is true subconsciously. You can't always believe all the decisions you make are conscious ones.
[QUOTE=gudman;42178378]A vicious circle. Women don't go into IT and tech in general because it's a men dominated field, and it is so because women don't go into IT and tech in general.
Every time a discussion about this spawns I'm breaking my head thinking about how this situation can be realistically fixed without making quotas or other stupid bullshit.[/QUOTE]
They can start their own businesses and just circumnavigate male dominated businesses.
Kickstarter exists purely for people in this particular situation assuming they don't want to risk their own funds.
[editline]13th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Banandana;42179659]Not saying I like barbies, some people do, but if you did, you wouldn't be playing with them in front of all your friends, would you?[/QUOTE]
I can genuinely say what other people think of me has no influence on what I do unless they're willing to back up their disapproval with physical action, and even then I am willing to take them to task. You would have to be pretty pathetic to let other people get in the way of you doing what you enjoy (assuming what you enjoy causes no harm). You ask, would you act in way you enjoy if under the supervision of your friends they would judge you negatively. I say, if you are friends with people like this, you have poor judgement.
[quote]I would look girly and would feel as if they are labeling me as 'unmanly'[/quote]
Why do you conflate girly with something negative?
[QUOTE=Riutet;42181785]
I can genuinely say what other people think of me has no influence on what I do unless they're willing to back up their disapproval with physical action, and even then I am willing to take them to task. You would have to be pretty pathetic to let other people get in the way of you doing what you enjoy (assuming what you enjoy causes no harm). You ask, would you act in way you enjoy if under the supervision of your friends they would judge you negatively. I say, if you are friends with people like this, you have poor judgement.
Why do you conflate girly with something negative?[/QUOTE]
See, you bring up a very interesting point. Thank you for posting.
I never intended to say that guys having girly qualities is a bad thing. What I said here sums it up:
[quote]I believe it's the pressure put down on people by the genre-specific roles set in society.[/quote]
It's not that I have a problem with it, it's just that it's a result of pressure from society.
I'm fine with who I am, and I do my best not to be influenced by this type of pressure, but my point was that it's there and that people are influenced by it whether they like it or not. It's part of human nature.
[editline]13th September 2013[/editline]
You really can't blame your friends for conforming to social standards; it's common to do so.
If there was anything to blame, it's the culture itself. No one is actively saying "You can't be girly," it's just that it's common knowledge for some because of the cultural interactions they experience. When someone sees someone defying what they believe to be common sense or general knowledge, it's odd to them, and for some, it even disturbs them.
[editline]13th September 2013[/editline]
Below is my opinion.
I believe that there are many cases where a social standard is good to have. It makes people more 'normal' so you don't have people walking around doing weird shit and being a nuisance.
On the other hand, as a result of these social standards, this type of situation can easily occur, and it's not always for the best.
It's something almost comparable to free speech. Everyone wants to speak freely, but some just want to be slanderous. If I was to redefine society, I would need to set a threshold between these two points. It's just a fine balance, such as the difference between freedom and chaos. You can't completely remove one without introducing the other.
[QUOTE=Banandana;42182253]I never intended to say that guys having girly qualities is a bad thing.[/quote]
Yeah I know, I was just being facetious. You yourself would not be conflating girly and unmanly with something negative, your friends would be the ones using it with a negative connotation as you are defying the standard by which they hold you to.
[quote]You really can't blame your friends for conforming to social standards; it's common to do so.[/quote]
I disagree, I don't think "everyone does it" is a justification. A lot of people like to have indiscriminate sex, the side effect being that they catch STDs which they then proceed to spread themselves, a lot of people do it, that doesn't justify it.
[quote]If there was anything to blame, it's the culture itself.[/quote]
I think blaming an idea is stepping around the issue, as the idea has no weight unless there is someone to enforce it in some respect. I also think you have to have a pretty low opinion of the intelligence of the people you're excusing by blaming culture. Humans are intelligent and they possess the ability to think and rationalise why they hold the ideas they do; you sell them short by saying they have no or little agency in adopting the opinions they currently hold.
If more people knew what a double-blind study actually is, I don't think we would have as many of these kinds of debates.
A lot of people think a double-blind study is some sort of really complicated statistical thing scientists do for super advanced experiments when actually all it is is a study which accounts for the perceptions of the people who are carrying out the study, because as it turns out, even merely observing something can influence it, even if the people who take part in the study aren't aware of the observer. I don't quite know how this works and I'm not sure the people who came up with this type of study do either, but it's definitely a thing and more people really ought to know about it. I should also probably mention most scientists consider double-blind studies completely essential in obtaining accurate results on pretty much anything.
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-blind_study[/URL]
[QUOTE=Riutet;42182962]I think blaming an idea is stepping around the issue, as the idea has no weight unless there is someone to enforce it in some respect. I also think you have to have a pretty low opinion of the intelligence of the people you're excusing by blaming culture. Humans are intelligent and they possess the ability to think and rationalise why they hold the ideas they do; you sell them short by saying they have no or little agency in adopting the opinions they currently hold.[/QUOTE]
By that standard, the Chinese should know that they're being oppressed? They have no freedom of speech in the PRC, so by what you said, wouldn't you expect them to do something about it? Even though they're raised to believe one thing, they should just know to do another?
I think what you say here is true to a certain degree, but not by much. If they were so intelligent, things such as this wouldn't happen.
[QUOTE=gudman;42178378]A vicious circle. Women don't go into IT and tech in general because it's a men dominated field, and it is so because women don't go into IT and tech in general.
Every time a discussion about this spawns I'm breaking my head thinking about how this situation can be realistically fixed without making quotas or other stupid bullshit.[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-19/j-k-rowling-and-the-chamber-of-literary-fame.html"]An interesting article for you about cumulative advantage and Harry Potter.[/URL]
[QUOTE=Banandana;42183499]By that standard, the Chinese should know that they're being oppressed? They have no freedom of speech in the PRC, so by what you said, wouldn't you expect them to do something about it?[/quote]
The Chinese do know they are being oppressed, they also know they're being censored and many of them make efforts to get around it.
We don't exactly live in China either, we live in countries where there is free flow of information (almost), there is really no excuse to have a cloistered idea about the world.
[quote]Even though they're raised to believe one thing, they should just know to do another?[/quote]
Ideas can form without there needing to be precedent for them, if not for this truth the case would be that we knew everything there was to know to begin with and gradually we forgot it, as opposed to the exact opposite; which is what happened in reality. You don't need to be told about ideas to formulate them, it just really helps, cuts out the whole rational thought part.
[QUOTE=Riutet;42184799]The Chinese do know they are being oppressed, they also know they're being censored and many of them make efforts to get around it.
We don't exactly live in China either, we live in countries where there is free flow of information (almost), there is really no excuse to have a cloistered idea about the world.
Ideas can form without there needing to be precedent for them, if not for this truth the case would be that we knew everything there was to know to begin with and gradually we forgot it, as opposed to the exact opposite; which is what happened in reality. You don't need to be told about ideas to formulate them, it just really helps, cuts out the whole rational thought part.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you quite understand how deeply ingrained these things are in our culture. It's not even a conscious thing most of the time. You make good points, but for example, it's not like I wake up everyday going 'What do guys normally do? I think I'll do that today.' It's more complicated than that.
This is highly debatable, and while I would usually want to continue, I don't think this is the right section, nor am I interested in continuing.
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