[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;48327416]There was no evidence for murder. Period. There was no malice aforethought that could have been proven.
So the question is why do we have a justice system that says people are guilty of charges that they are innocent of?[/QUOTE]
Because the prosecutors make their careers on conviction numbers and high profile cases such as this. They don't care if you're innocent or guilty, they just want to put a W on the board.
[QUOTE=BulletofHell;48335638]Doesn't matter dude. Thankfully he was stopped before he could do much, but if the guy is fleeing the police (which he was judging from the sneaky startup he tried) he's automatically considered in possession of a deadly weapon - the 2 1/2 ton block of steel and fuel-fed injection he's whipping around with the intent of [I]evading police[/I]. We've all played enough Grand Theft Auto to know how fucking crazy a chase with the boys in blue can get, what were they supposed to do - let the dipshit gun it from them and try to get as far away in the shortest amount of time possible through densely populated city blocks? That sounds safe.[/QUOTE]
Yeah so better kill him now before he hurts anyone!!! I say we shoot anyone in a police chase, kill 'em quick so they don't run over civilians! Hell, if someone is running away from the police we might as well shoot them too. Who knows if they are running to get a weapon or something? Can't take any chances! Gotta protect our officers and our own safety too!
^ This is how you sound to me.
It will be interesting to see how many years he will get.
[QUOTE=gastyne;48331512]The cop shouldn't have stopped him in the first place.[/QUOTE]
The cop performed a lawful stop on a vehicle (front plates are required in Ohio), lawfully asked for the driver's license, and when he failed to be able to produce it, lawfully asked the person to step out of the vehicle. The driver was driving without a front plate and without a driver's licence on his person (potentially at all), and then decided the best response was to run.
Only one person here was breaking the law, and it wasn't the cop.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;48332608]Yes, perhaps he should have made it more obvious or formally clear that he [I]will kill him[/I] if he doesn't do something as ordered.[/QUOTE]
Yes, that was clearly the cop intent. That's why he stepped back and mag dumped into the car... Oh wait, no, he tried to reach in and turn off the car to defuse the situation. The driver then decided to hit the gas with the cop's arm still in the car and ended up getting shot as a result.
[QUOTE=Tetsmega;48332611]And not give him a chance to act civil and cooperate? That's pretty fucked up.[/QUOTE]
He had a chance to cooperate; the cop asked him nicely to step out of the car. This guys response was to pull his door shut, start his car, and drive off.
[editline]31st July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Flameon;48335461]No a person did that. And according to you, doing that warrants the death penalty without trial?[/QUOTE]
Running from police, or more generally resisting lawful (or unlawful) orders from police, runs the risk you will be hurt or killed, because the police are going to attempt to make you comply one way or another. If you make it difficult, if you choose to resist, then you are escalating the situation and you are forcing the police to escalate as well, because they aren't going to just let you resist, especially given you've shown that you're willing to do so.
This story, like so many others, would have never even happened had the person complied with law enforcement and fought their case in court.
Honestly, as I've said before, it's a shame that someone died, but I don't feel morally the cop did the wrong thing. I'd rather this be the outcome, than the (potential) high-speed pursuit ends with bystander killed, or police officer run over by car. Because, ultimately, this chain of events was started by someone, who only continued to make the situation worse for themselves.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;48337018]
Yes, that was clearly the cop intent. That's why he stepped back and mag dumped into the car... Oh wait, no, he tried to reach in and turn off the car to defuse the situation. The driver then decided to hit the gas with the cop's arm still in the car and ended up getting shot as a result.
[/quote]
So he didn't pull his arm out the car because? The fact that his training would even give him the idea that in this situation he could use lethal force proves we need to revamp when officers are given the okay to draw and fire their weapons.
[quote]
He had a chance to cooperate; the cop asked him nicely to step out of the car. This guys response was to pull his door shut, start his car, and drive off.
[/quote]
The punishment for doing that shouldn't be the death penalty. Law abiding citizens all the time make choices to do things that are illegal. You can be in favor of disciplinary action against them but OPPOSED to the death penalty. In countries overseas we hear about people losing their hands for comitting crimes all the time and our response is outrage, but here we have someone losing their [B][U]life[/U][/B] for running away and we treat it like business as usual.
[quote]
Running from police, or more generally resisting lawful (or unlawful) orders from police, runs the risk you will be hurt or killed, because the police are going to attempt to make you comply one way or another. If you make it difficult, if you choose to resist, then you are escalating the situation and you are forcing the police to escalate as well, because they aren't going to just let you resist, especially given you've shown that you're willing to do so.
This story, like so many others, would have never even happened had the person complied with law enforcement and fought their case in court.
Honestly, as I've said before, it's a shame that someone died, but I don't feel morally the cop did the wrong thing. I'd rather this be the outcome, than the (potential) high-speed pursuit ends with bystander killed, or police officer run over by car. Because, ultimately, this chain of events was started by someone, who only continued to make the situation worse for themselves.[/QUOTE]
Running from the police should not carry the risk that you will be killed. I am fine with it carrying the risk that you may be hurt (i.e: they use cars to stop your car and you get bruised, or they tackle you to the floor) in the attempt to make you comply. But running from the police should NOT carry the risk that they KILL YOU - because that isn't an action to make you comply with their command to 'stop', thats an action to turn you from a person into a corpse.
Yes, if this person complied they wouldn't have been shot. But that doesn't mean SHOOTING THEM IS MORAL. If this person didn't DRIVE WITHOUT LICENSE PLATES they wouldn't have been stopped either, but I imagine if the punishment for driving without plates was a bullet to the head you probably would not be okay with that system. I am not okay with lethal force being used on fleeing persons - its a brutal tactic that is decided upon when a police officer feels afraid. And it is pretty telling that an officer can fear for his life when someone is running AWAY from them. Reform is desperately needed.
If anything, I think body cams prove that these situations are very unique and complicated, whether it be negligence, nerves of the officer, or outright wrongdoing. Hopefully it makes people understand that all cops aren't racist murders, but humans who can sometimes make high-stake mistakes, just as heart surgeons. Not saying that there aren't racist cops and power hungry officers, but really every case is different
Holy shit that guy must have shot really fast, that was way too brutal than It needed to be.
Oh there's a fat cop too, gta 4 is still accurate.
Dude should lose his job and be barred from any government job, but murder charges is a bit much. He did a dumb thing reaching into the vehicle, and another dumb thing by pulling his gun. He did have reasons to pull his gun, and I can understand those reasonings, but he can't go shooting someone every time they do something like this. But if you must charge him, manslaughter would be the best charge, he acted in the heat of the moment without thinking clearly.
[QUOTE=Flameon;48340659]So he didn't pull his arm out the car because? The fact that his training would even give him the idea that in this situation he could use lethal force proves we need to revamp when officers are given the okay to draw and fire their weapons.
[/QUOTE]
Because it's so easy to tell if he got his hand stuck in something in that high-quality video feed? And the officer was just acting like his arm was hurt afterwards?
I think you're missing the point; you're treating this like a black and white situation, which I tried to highlight by actually providing a black and white situation, then explaining why this wasn't one.
[quote]The punishment for doing that shouldn't be the death penalty. Law abiding citizens all the time make choices to do things that are illegal. You can be in favor of disciplinary action against them but OPPOSED to the death penalty. In countries overseas we hear about people losing their hands for comitting crimes all the time and our response is outrage, but here we have someone losing their [B][U]life[/U][/B] for running away and we treat it like business as usual.[/quote]
People break the law all the time; people speed, they do drugs (which I don't think should be illegal, but anyway), they jaywalk, etc... Running from police isn't just "some illegal action", it's making a decision to risk your own life, and the life of anyone who happens to be around the path you take, to actively run away from police. That isn't a choice any "law abiding citizen" takes; that's the choice a desperate person takes. Which makes you then ask, why are they so determined not to get caught that they are willing to take that risk, a risk that rarely amounts to anything but more charges (at best).
Furthermore, can you stop calling it a "death penalty"; a cop isn't a jury or a judge. Their goal isn't to sentence people to anything; their job is to apprehend people when possible so that a judge and jury can make such decisions.
People however don't wish to be apprehended, and some fight or flee. In doing so, they are knowingly and willingly partaking in a dangerous activity that almost always fails to accomplish anything positive for their situation, in the short or long runs. At times, they end up dead for it. Do I feel bad for them? Yes, because of the underlying issues in this country that led them to feel their best option was to run, not because they were killed running from police in a car; better them than some bystander or an officer just doing their job.
[quote]
Running from the police should not carry the risk that you will be killed.[/quote]
Running from police runs the very real risk you will be killed if (A) you crash and kill yourself or (B) you show you are an active danger to people around you and are stopped by police (possibly crashing). That's just getting the vehicle stopped, in the process of removing you from the vehicle you could also be hurt or potentially killed. People have been punched once and died, so it shouldn't be particular shocking that getting into a physical altercation with police runs the risk of death.
[quote]Yes, if this person complied they wouldn't have been shot. But that doesn't mean SHOOTING THEM IS MORAL. If this person didn't DRIVE WITHOUT LICENSE PLATES they wouldn't have been stopped either, but I imagine if the punishment for driving without plates was a bullet to the head you probably would not be okay with that system. I am not okay with lethal force being used on fleeing persons - its a brutal tactic that is decided upon when a police officer feels afraid. And it is pretty telling that an officer can fear for his life when someone is running AWAY from them. Reform is desperately needed.[/quote]
Question: Do you plan on running from police if they pull you over? Would you even think that was a valid consideration? Probably not?
This has absolutely nothing to do with why the person was pulled over (sans that it was a valid reason) and everything to do with him deciding to run.
And again, you're making this a black and white situation. "His goal was to run away, clearly whatever he is doing in the process of running away couldn't be putting anyone else at risk."
The driver can clearly be seen avoiding the direction the officer is giving him. Nothing the officer says or does during the initial parts of the stop are unreasonable or unjustified. The law in that area states that you must have a plate fully registered on the front of your vehicle at all times, the driver did not and thus is why he was stopped.
During the drop the driver refuses direction from the officer on multiple occasions. During a traffic stop you are required to heed the direction of the officer who has stopped you, the driver is seen refusing direction.
Shortly after refusing direction from the officer the driver starts the car up and attempts to flee. The officer sees this, a struggle insues and the officer shoots the driver. The officer states that during the struggle he feared for his life as he was being dragged and feared that he may be run over or dragged underneath the vehicle. The body cam footage shows that he was further down the road than where he and the driver were when he made the stop.
Anyone who has ever seen a car will tell you that it doesen't take much effort at all for a vehicle to harm someone. Hitting someone going a couple of km/hr will likely cause significant injury. Having your arm and or person in a moving vehicle while you are quite clearly wrestling with someone is a recipe for disaster, most likely for you and not the driver as at that point your person is significantly restricted and your ability to resist and keep your person safe is in dire straits.
He made a bad call in a quick second. I really don't find this as damning as some of the other things we've seen cops do recently.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;48327439]sorry to say, but if that's what the law says in the USA, then guys, you have a somewhat fucked up law....[/QUOTE]
"its a stupid law that you should defend yourself if any part of your body is in major harm"
okay
I can't believe people in this thread are actually defending this murderer.
[QUOTE=gastyne;48346586]I can't believe people in this thread are actually defending this murderer.[/QUOTE]
And I can't believe you're dense enough to not realize that this situation has a lot of gray area.
Here we have a guy who's been arrested 75 times, lying to the police (Not really the police, it was a College University officer, what was Dubose doing there to begin with I wonder). And then while trying to run he dragged the officer with him (Though not far). Now larger departments will train their officers not to stick their arms into the vehicle if the engine is running because your gun belt, arm, radio, watch, whatever can easily get caught if they gun it and you're along for the ride, so the danger posed to this officer was real, and it was potentially life threatening, and what he did may have even saved his life or prevented grave bodily harm to himself since the car stopped accelerating
But
He was fuckin' QUICK on the draw. You can notice a car in a driveway during the stop, and where it is when the gun first appears in frame. He hadn't even been dragged yet by the time you see the gun
It's a bad situation with a bit of a grey area and it could really go either way, but what's going to happen is even if this officer is found guilty, he can easily appeal it because of the prosecutor and the shit he had no business saying on TV
That black guy is obviously a gang member
What's the point in closely looking at what both people did in this and that exact millisecond?
From a bigger perspective the black guy simply tried to bail and for some people in here that justifiably equals the death penalty.
At least that's what the people who argue in favor of the cop think is right.
In Europe a cop would only pull his gun when his own life is directly in danger (only reason: the criminal points a weapon at the policeman), so this entire scenario looks
fucked up from a european perspective.
How american cops handle everything with their gun is a horrid mentality in the first place and is the reason why shit like this happens.
[QUOTE=Cmx;48326846]The guy closing the door after the cop tries to open it would already have him reaching for his weapon, after he starts the car its clear hes going to flee. [b]Any cop would draw their weapon in that situation.[/b][/QUOTE]
Why? Do you realise how insane that is?
Why would the cop pull the gun in the first place if he didn't mean to murder this guy?
He was unarmed.........
maybe because a gun is an intimidating object that has a high likelihood of making someone comply?
The cop do not have gun to scare someone.
You do not pull a gun unless you intend to use it.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48326855]So because a criminal is going to flee cops pull out weapons? That's kinda scary to think about.[/QUOTE]
are you fucking dumb?
[QUOTE=RaptorJGW;48347473]What's the point in closely looking at what both people did in this and that exact millisecond?
From a bigger perspective the black guy simply tried to bail and for some people in here that justifiably equals the death penalty.
At least that's what the people who argue in favor of the cop think is right.
In Europe a cop would only pull his gun when his own life is directly in danger (only reason: the criminal points a weapon at the policeman), so this entire scenario looks
fucked up from a european perspective.
How american cops handle everything with their gun is a horrid mentality in the first place and is the reason why shit like this happens.[/QUOTE]
"What's the point in examining exactly what happened? I'm going to disregard the evidence and pass judgment solely on my own beliefs independently of the facts. This is the superior European way."
[editline]1st August 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48326855]So because a criminal is going to flee cops pull out weapons? That's kinda scary to think about.[/QUOTE]
Criminals running loose? Frightening indeed.
[QUOTE=Apache249;48348066]"This is the superior European way."[/QUOTE]
You're saying that as if that was ridiculous. Who of us has less gun violence again?
[QUOTE=RaptorJGW;48348089]You're saying that as if that was ridiculous. Who of us has less gun violence again?[/QUOTE]
The part that you didn't quote was the ridiculous part.
[editline]1st August 2015[/editline]
Go back and address that.
[QUOTE=Apache249;48348066]
Criminals running loose? Frightening indeed.[/QUOTE]
Lol, ya. I'm terrified that someone may be driving without a license! Quick officer, gun him down I don't feel safe!
Do you realize how absolutely blood thirsty you sound?
@DaMasterz:
1.) His Arm: Yes, it may have hurt! Thats what happens when he decides he wants to wrestle with a driver while a car is starting to move! I don't have any sympathy for that bone-headed move, especially since he doesn't get *caught* in the car and dragged until AFTER he decides its time to shoot Debose in the head. Even if his arm hurt... what? That justifies lethal force? Are you listening to yourself?
2.) [quote]"Running from police isn't just "some illegal action", it's making a decision to risk your own life, and the life of anyone who happens to be around the path you take, to actively run away from police"[/quote] It is only a decision to 'risk your life' IF WE ACCEPT THAT ITS ALRIGHT THAT OFFICERS CAN USE LETHAL FORCE. You are begging the question here which is the debate. I'm saying it SHOULDN'T incur that risk.
3.) [quote]"Furthermore, can you stop calling it a "death penalty"; a cop isn't a jury or a judge. Their goal isn't to sentence people to anything; their job is to apprehend people when possible so that a judge and jury can make such decisions."[/quote] I am aware what the cop SHOULD DO. Don't you find it problematic that they DECIDE the sentence people recieve in the field WTHOUT a judge and jury? He didn't apprehend Debose, he killed him. For basically nothing.
4.) [quote]Question: Do you plan on running from police if they pull you over? Would you even think that was a valid consideration? Probably not?
This has absolutely nothing to do with why the person was pulled over (sans that it was a valid reason) and everything to do with him deciding to run.
And again, you're making this a black and white situation. "His goal was to run away, clearly whatever he is doing in the process of running away couldn't be putting anyone else at risk."[/quote]
Everyone who keeps saying "this isn't a black and white situation" - calm the fuck down. Even if situations are complex they warrant judgement - which is clear because your judgement is falling squarely in favor of the officer.
Would I run? No, I wouldn't. Do I understand why some people run? Yes, because they don't want to go to jail. Does that mean that those people that run would harm other people or the officer? Somtimes POTENTIALLY, but often NO. Treating all suspects that run from the police as murderers brandishing a deadly weapon @ police officers is fucked up. Him running resulted in his death, thats absolute bullshit.
[QUOTE=Apache249;48348114]The part that you didn't quote was the ridiculous part.
[editline]1st August 2015[/editline]
Go back and address that.[/QUOTE]
I already gave my opinion on that. Black guy tried to bail and I don't see the point in pulling out your gun intending to kill.
That's what I believe at any millisecond of that video.
[QUOTE=formatme;48347810]are you fucking dumb?[/QUOTE]
Advocating for not murdering another human isn't dumb, what the hell
Ok there are a few things that need to be said. Guns are a big deal in America which is why police are so quick on the draw. You NEVER know what is going to happen in a traffic stop and there are documented reports of suspects just drawing guns and shooting the officer when they reach the window, so officers must be prepared for ANYTHING.
Also, why the fuck did the guy run? If you believe the police are assholes, tough shit. Legally you are their bitch until you get in front of a judge. If you wanna fight the police, do it in a courtroom and not on the street because the police will always win.
Plus everyone seems to forget that letting him go turns this situation into a high speed chase and that is more dangerous for everyone. Was shooting the guy the right answer? I don't know, but it prevented further harm to others and that's the point. Do I think just "shooting someone fleeing" is a good thing? Hell no, but the officer wasn't left with much choice. You try getting dragged by a car and tell me you can think rationally.
And finally, this would not have happened if the man had simply complied. Again, you want to fight police officers? That's fine, just do it in a courtroom.
[QUOTE=Solo Wing;48348538]Ok there are a few things that need to be said. Guns are a big deal in America which is why police are so quick on the draw. You NEVER know what is going to happen in a traffic stop and there are documented reports of suspects just drawing guns and shooting the officer when they reach the window, so officers must be prepared for ANYTHING.[/quote]
Fine, an officer should be prepared to respond with force when they see a gun. But just becuse they have a sneaking suspicion that someone has a gun is not solid grounds for them to open fire.
[quote]
Also, why the fuck did the guy run? If you believe the police are assholes, tough shit. Legally you are their bitch until you get in front of a judge. If you wanna fight the police, do it in a courtroom and not on the street because the police will always win.
Plus everyone seems to forget that letting him go turns this situation into a high speed chase and that is more dangerous for everyone. Was shooting the guy the right answer? I don't know, but it prevented further harm to others and that's the point. Do I think just "shooting someone fleeing" is a good thing? Hell no, but the officer wasn't left with much choice. You try getting dragged by a car and tell me you can think rationally.
[/QUOTE]
He ran because he wanted to get away from the police. Thats it.
The officer wasn't left with much choice? He could have NOT SHOT HIM. He could have backed up, let go of the car. He could have not dived into the vehicle when he heard it started moving? You are commending the officer for 'defusing the situation'? Are you shitting me dude? you have no idea if this was gonna turn into a high-speed chase, and the pre-emptive attitude that we are giving police officers - that they can use lethal force BEFORE the situation turns dangerous is absolutely disgusting. By this logic, all criminals ought be shot on sight because who KNOWS what they might do when officers try to apprehend them. Maybe they have a knife hidden? Better be safe then sorry, so we better light them up!
Blaming him for getting shot is absurd. It is only the suspect's fault if you think that running from the police should carry with it a death sentence. yeah, he ran and didn't comply, that shouldn't be grounds to be murdered. It is a suspects choice to steal, or vandalize, or loiter - that doesn't mean I think killing them should be the appropriate response to those actions. Aparently you do?
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