[QUOTE=Vedicardi;48328678]Report me for what now? Huh?[/QUOTE]
Threadshitting for one
I haven't insulted anyone and I'm not just fucking with you.
[editline]29th July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48328679]Threadshitting for one[/QUOTE]
I don't know what that means honestly.
As much as I love hating on people with vacant cranial cavities, we [i]are[/i] trying to have some form of a conversation here
[QUOTE]These three facts alone are enough for the officer to seriously consider the possible threat the driver is to both him and the general public. The officer did not intend to "murder" the suspect. The suspect forced the officers hand in this scenario.
[/QUOTE]
I understand the fact he didn't intend to murder the suspect. To clarify, [B]I don't consider this a murder,[/B] but a negligent discharge. I am questioning whether pulling out his gun was justified or not. If it was justified, then so is a ND. What were his intentions in pulling out the gun? That wouldn't de escalate the situation nor is justified as a scenario of self defense.
Taking into account a potential chase where the public can be damaged, in my view, doesn't justify using lethal force to stop the person being chased. There is a precedent for this, as I haven't heard of a pursuit being ended by shots when the guy being chased wasn't armed or inside a tank or a bulletproof bulldozer hell bent on destroying everything.
[QUOTE=Sonador;48328685]As much as I love hating on people with vacant cranial cavities, we [I]are[/I] trying to have some form of a conversation here[/QUOTE]
Agreed. So how about those body cameras? Looks like they're really paying for themselves now.
[editline]29th July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;48328686]I understand the fact he didn't intend to murder the suspect. To clarify, [B]I don't consider this a murder,[/B] but a negligent discharge. I am questioning whether pulling out his gun was justified or not. If it was justified, then so is a ND. What were his intentions in pulling out the gun? That wouldn't de escalate the situation nor is justified as a scenario of self defense.[/QUOTE]
The officer pulled his gun out when the suspect refused to comply with any part of what the officer was ordering him to do while simultaneously doing incredibly suspicious things like starting his car.
[quote]
Taking into account a potential chase where the public can be damaged, in my view, doesn't justify using lethal force to stop the person being chased. There is a precedent for this, as I haven't heard of a pursuit being ended by shots when the guy being chased wasn't armed or inside a tank or a bulletproof bulldozer hell bent on destroying everything.[/quote]
It doesn't take the pursuit ending in gunshots for the driver to plow into a family of 5 in a white sedan.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48328659][url]http://articles.latimes.com/2000/feb/23/news/mn-1731[/url]
[url]http://wtvr.com/2013/05/19/accident-report-man-ejected-from-vehicle-run-over/[/url]
[url]http://www.thejournal.ie/south-africa-hijacking-boy-killed-1581531-Jul2014/[/url]
Apparently I was mistaken in my belief that this isn't hard to figure out, so here I am demonstrating that people can easily get dragged by cars and it's not good for their health.
Do you need more examples?[/QUOTE]
Next time I see a guy with a gun holstered, I'll shoot him
Hey! Haven't you heard that guns, when unholstered, when aimed at someone, when loaded, when the safety is off and when the trigger is pulled, can kill someone?
I hope that you can get logic of my absurd and totally stupid example so as to understand why it's pointless to post those links...
Omg shut up all of you wow
(Unless you are actually discussing/debating the article and things related to it and not just being petty towards each other)
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48328687]Agreed. So how about those body cameras? Looks like they're really paying for themselves now.[/QUOTE]
I have one and I'm not even a cop. They're great, they have a dual purpose effect of making people behave once they realize they're being recorded, and providing great evidence to support cops in a he-said-she-said situation.
It also makes pretty decent water cooler talk.
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Ye_gnNjU0[/url] (link because I think the thumbnails for media are too large)
This guy was creeping on people and wouldn't answer our questions, admitted he didn't live there so we kicked him out.
His skull was also trying to escape his face. Meth is a hell of a drug.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;48328699]Next time I see a guy with a gun holstered, I'll shoot him
Hey! Haven't you heard that guns, when unholstered, when aimed at someone, when loaded, when the safety is off and when the trigger is pulled, can kill someone?
I hope that you can get logic of my absurd and totally stupid example so as to understand why it's pointless to post those links...[/QUOTE]
Thats a rather poor comparison.
This would be more like a dude taking off the strap on his holster and turning the safety off while ignoring everything you're saying while also acting incredibly suspicious.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;48328686]I understand the fact he didn't intend to murder the suspect. To clarify, [B]I don't consider this a murder,[/B] but a negligent discharge. I am questioning whether pulling out his gun was justified or not. If it was justified, then so is a ND. What were his intentions in pulling out the gun? That wouldn't de escalate the situation nor is justified as a scenario of self defense.
Taking into account a potential chase where the public can be damaged, in my view, doesn't justify using lethal force to stop the person being chased. There is a precedent for this, as I haven't heard of a pursuit being ended by shots when the guy being chased wasn't armed or inside a tank or a bulletproof bulldozer hell bent on destroying everything.[/QUOTE]
when you think shits about to go south you pull your gun, when you think you're about to die or be seriously injured you shoot the gun.
its a pretty simple concept
he probably shouldn't have stuck his hand in the car though
[QUOTE=Sonador;48328702]I have one and I'm not even a cop. They're great, they have a dual purpose effect of making people behave once they realize they're being recorded, and providing great evidence to support cops in a he-said-she-said situation.
It also makes pretty decent water cooler talk.
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Ye_gnNjU0[/url] (link because I think the thumbnails for media are too large)
This guy was creeping on people and wouldn't answer our questions, admitted he didn't live there so we kicked him out.
His skull was also trying to escape his face. Meth is a hell of a drug.[/QUOTE]
Thats pretty cool. Do you actually keep it on? I could see that annoying a lot of people.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48328701]Omg shut up all of you wow
(Unless you are actually discussing/debating the article and things related to it and not just being petty towards each other)[/QUOTE]
you have the authority, just make sure you dont go negligently discharging all over the place
[QUOTE=abcpea;48328713]when you think shits about to go south you pull your gun, when you think you're about to die or be seriously injured you shoot the gun.
its a pretty simple concept
he probably shouldn't have stuck his hand in the car though[/QUOTE]
I don't really fault him for trying to stop the car, given cops are supposed to control situations like these. The only question mark I have is if I would have pulled the trigger. I'll never know unless I get into one of these situations.
[QUOTE]The officer pulled his gun out when the suspect refused to comply with any part of what the officer was ordering him to do while simultaneously doing incredibly suspicious things like starting his car.
[/QUOTE]
If that's common procedure in the US and you guys don't see any moral or ethically wrong with it, I think we can call it a day.
[QUOTE]It doesn't take the pursuit ending in gunshots for the driver to plow into a family 5 in a white sedan.
[/QUOTE]
I will have to use the same argument I used some posts ago about the guy running off with a gun holstered. He can use other people as shields or kill someone in his attempt to flee, so we better use lethal force to stop it right here and then.
We are assuming the worst can happen when that's clearly not the logic or procedure used every time.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48328716]Thats pretty cool. Do you actually keep it on? I could see that annoying a lot of people.[/QUOTE]
I'm still getting used to it, so I admittedly don't run it as often as I should. It's supposed to be keyed when you arrive/start a stop to begin recording and then keyed off when the stop is over. I don't think there are many bodycams built to run all shift, mine certainly isn't and it was $400.
[editline]29th July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;48328733]If that's common procedure in the US and you guys don't see any moral or ethically wrong with it, I think we can call it a day.
I will have to use the same argument I used some posts ago about the guy running off with a gun holstered. He can use other people as shields or kill someone in his attempt to flee, so we better use lethal force to stop it right here and then.
We are assuming the worst can happen when that's clearly not the logic or procedure used every time.[/QUOTE]
I highly recommend you watch this. It'll probably change your mind.
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g[/media]
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;48328733]If that's common procedure in the US and you guys don't see any moral or ethically wrong with it, I think we can call it a day.[/quote]
Well you're entitled to you opinion.
[quote]
I will have to use the same argument I used some posts ago about the guy running off with a gun holstered. He can use other people as shields or kill someone in his attempt to flee, so we better use lethal force to stop it right here and then.
We are assuming the worst can happen when that's clearly not the logic or procedure used every time.[/QUOTE]
[quote]Thats a rather poor comparison.
This would be more like a dude taking off the strap on his holster and turning the safety off while ignoring everything you're saying while also acting incredibly suspicious. [/quote]
[QUOTE=Sonador;48328734]I'm still getting used to it, so I admittedly don't run it as often as I should. It's supposed to be keyed when you arrive/start a stop to begin recording and then keyed off when the stop is over. I don't think there are many bodycams built to run all shift, mine certainly isn't and it was $400.
[editline]29th July 2015[/editline]
I highly recommend you watch this. It'll probably change your mind.
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g[/media][/QUOTE]
Here are exactly the "danger" signals I talked about a couple of posts ago.
A 2m tall guy who was just violently arguing hulking towards you? A shady guy being erratic and going off from you field of view? That are cases where I justify pulling out the gun.
But say, I wouldn't justify pulling out the gun if a guy is just standing in front, watching me sideways, doesn't comply with me and runs away from me.
Yet what happened with that car is the same. Kyle902 gave a good point where he said "The officer doesn't know if the suspect has a gun", yet the suspect clearly gave signals of wanting to run away.
EDIT: About the strap thing, I would accept the logic of your example if the guy had stopped the car, turned around or did something which CLEARLY showed an intent to hurt the officer.
[QUOTE=Sonador;48328734]I'm still getting used to it, so I admittedly don't run it as often as I should. It's supposed to be keyed when you arrive/start a stop to begin recording and then keyed off when the stop is over. I don't think there are many bodycams built to run all shift, mine certainly isn't and it was $400.
[editline]29th July 2015[/editline]
I highly recommend you watch this. It'll probably change your mind.
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g[/media][/QUOTE]
I find this video to be pretty disingenuous. It takes somebody with absolutely no training whatsoever and throws him into dangerous situations, and then acts like they've had some big "gotcha!" moment when he doesn't know what to do and "kills" unarmed people, or "dies" because he can't control the situation.
I get that it is demonstrating that police are put in stressful situations that could turn bad at a moment's notice, but police are also trained in how to control and defuse situations, within reason, and given more than just a gun to alow them to do that. A cop shooting somebody dead because they're unsure of what else to do is considerably less understandable than Joe Blow off the street making that kind of mistake. At the very least, it would indicate that police need more involved training or better nonelethal tools.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48328801]I find this video to be pretty disingenuous. It takes somebody with absolutely no training whatsoever and throws him into "dangerous" situations, and then acts like they've had some big "gotcha!" moment when he doesn't know what to do and "kills" unarmed people.
I get that it is demonstrating that police are put in stressful situations that could turn bad at a moment's notice, but police are also trained and given other tools than their handgun. A cop shooting somebody dead because they're unsure of what else to do is considerably less understandable than Joe Blow off the street making that kind of mistake.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I thought about answering that back, but oh well.
This is the way those situations should be handled, the verbal part I mean. Not that we should call in the NAVY seals or have officers equipped with MP5s
[video=youtube;T51nMGODoXo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T51nMGODoXo[/video]
Notice the instructor tells them to shout strongly, aggressively, and be clear about intentions.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;48327420] There's no reason for a cop to pull a gun on somebody who's unarmed and has the CLEAR intention of RUNNING away, NOT HURTING someone.[/QUOTE]
And then he fucks up a turn, crashes into a car killing an entire family or hits a pedestrian who had absolutely nothing to do with what happened
A car can definitely be used as a weapon.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;48328797]Here are exactly the "danger" signals I talked about a couple of posts ago.
A 2m tall guy who was just violently arguing hulking towards you? A shady guy being erratic and going off from you field of view? That are cases where I justify pulling out the gun. [/quote]
I'm so glad you don't have any say whatsoever in how law in the US is enforced.
[quote]
But say, I wouldn't justify pulling out the gun if a guy is just standing in front, watching me sideways, doesn't comply with me and runs away from me.[/quote]
Thats a funny way of saying "A dude ignoring the officer while actively showing his intent to drive away regardless of anything the officer says"
[quote]
Yet what happened with that car is the same. Kyle902 gave a good point where he said "The officer doesn't know if the suspect has a gun"[/quote]
Hold on there partner. Don't twist my words. I said the officer didn't know if the suspect was armed as a factor relating to the justification of the officer unholstering his gun.
[quote]yet the suspect clearly gave signals of wanting to run away.[/QUOTE]
So from the way it sounds you'd actually prefer if the police simply let people drive off if they're non compliant with officers?
Nevermind that high speed chases are inherently more dangerous to both the suspect, officer, and the public.
[QUOTE=Araknid;48328823]And then he fucks up a turn, crashes into a car killing an entire family or hits a pedestrian who had absolutely nothing to do with what happened
A car can definitely be used as a weapon.[/QUOTE]
That's not using a car as a weapon. You just said he fucked up a turn.
[QUOTE]So from the way it sounds you'd actually prefer if the police simply let people drive off if they're non compliant with officers?
Nevermind that high speed chases are inherently more dangerous to both the suspect, officer, and the public.[/QUOTE]
I would prefer the police not to pull a gun when the intention is to stop someone and not pulling a gun when there's isn't a clear threat to said officers live.
[QUOTE]I'm so glad you don't have any say whatsoever in how law in the US is enforced.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah me too. Getting involved in what those guys have been doing lately? No thanks.
[QUOTE]Hold on there partner. Don't twist my words. I said the officer didn't know if the suspect was armed as a factor relating to the justification of the officer unholstering his gun.
[/QUOTE]
worse yet, we go back to the holster situation and my "would only unholster if" 3 points original answer
[QUOTE]Thats a funny way of saying "A dude ignoring the officer while actively showing his intent to drive away regardless of anything the officer says"
[/QUOTE]
That's a funny way of not answering anything at all or contributing to the discussion.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;48328828]That's not using a car as a weapon. You just said he fucked up a turn.[/QUOTE]
Then you agree that vehicles can be used as weapons.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48328846]Then you agree that vehicles can be used as weapons.[/QUOTE]
Which is not the case here.
CAN BE USED AS WEAPONS != ARE WEAPONS.
There, can't get it any more simpler.
Post in first page:
[QUOTE]A car[B][I][U] is a [/U][/I][/B]fucking weapon.
Oh Jesus Christ, what's next?
LOOK THAT GUYS HAS HANDS AND ARMS
POTENTIAL WEAPONS!
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;48328897]Which is not the case here.
CAN BE USED AS WEAPONS != ARE WEAPONS.
There, can't get it any more simpler.
Post in first page:[/QUOTE]
Which brings me to my point actually. The car itself is not a weapon until the user of it intends to use it as one. The way the driver was acting there was a high possibility of him using his car as such.
Also I just wanted to address how horrible your danger signs actually are.
[quote]A 2m tall guy who was just violently arguing hulking towards you?[/quote]
Thats an intimidating guy. Intimidation has nothing to do with threat posed.
[quote]
A shady guy being erratic and going off from you field of view? That are cases where I justify pulling out the gun.[/quote]
Pull your gun on the guy that is no longer in your view?
You seem to think physical intimidation is something that factors in to threat posed which is clearly not the case.
[QUOTE=Cmx;48326807]Seems like it was just an accident. Cop drew his weapon and tried to reach for the keys, when he floored it he started to drag the cop causing him to tense up and fire.
I dont think the cop is at fault in this situation.[/QUOTE]
Why did he pull the gun out in the first place?
The cop executed this guy by bullet to the head, of course he is guilty.
[QUOTE=gastyne;48328977]Why did he pull the gun out in the first place?
The cop executed this guy by bullet to the head, of course he is guilty.[/QUOTE]
I dont even
He didn't have a warrant to search his car at all right?
This cop should go to jail for a long time.
...I'm not entirely sure how to feel about most of these cases, but they really make me wish we could just equip cops with some kind of ridiculous sci-fi stun gun that could instantly and consistently neutralize a threat temporarily without causing significant harm to them. Maybe some day.
[QUOTE=Katska;48329002]...I'm not entirely sure how to feel about most of these cases, but they really make me wish we could just equip cops with some kind of ridiculous sci-fi stun gun that could instantly and consistently neutralize a threat temporarily without causing significant harm to them. Maybe some day.[/QUOTE]
Like... a tazer gun?
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