[QUOTE=plunger435;48329524]Being dragged under a car can easily kill, and letting go doesn't exactly solve anything. You can clearly see in the footage he ends up further down the road when he stands back up.
Nothing about the officer has shown a history of racism either, nor was any shown in the video.
I'm not even sure how you've shifted this to a racial issue considering no one involved in the case believes it to be one. Though thanks for trying to make the assumption that I don't know African-Americans?
Officers aren't scared of the race of the driver during traffic stops, they're scared of the stops themselves. Sonador can weigh in, but the few officers I've been friends with have seen the training videos of them going horribly wrong, and why they need to be cautious during them.[/QUOTE]
The car wasn't going fourty miles an hour - in fact if you watched the video the driver only accelerates AFTER he is shot by the officer. Also lol @ your logic here: "If I let go or not I'm going to get run over... better shoot the driver so we both die then!" Give me a break. Whatever way you want to justify it, we ought not live in a society where a police officer is allowed or trained to do something like this.
My point was just that the DRIVER was scared, I didn't say the police officer was racist so thanks for changing the discussion. Do I think race had *SOMETHING* to do with this? AbsolutelyThere are a lot of things going on here. If the driver was female, or white, I wonder if this officer would have reacted the same. The point is that he was trained to use lethal force in this scenario (or scenarios like this) and the law needs to change so he can't do so in the future - so more lives can be saved.
By the way, and I don't want to get into this because at the moment it has literally NOTHING to do with our discussion, but there is tons of research that officers are more inclined to use force against minorities - not because they are mnorities per se, but because being black is associated with criminality and thus gets less of a pass. It is called the ecological contamination hypothesis, you'll find a shit load of scholastic articles on it.
I fear for our future where people think shit that happens on the TV and Movies is actually real. So many of the "cop is a murder" type comments seemed to be based on mistaken beliefs of things seen on fictional shows.
A car is a very large and dangerous object to be right next to when its moving, it doesn't have to be going any faster than a person walks to do serious bodily harm. All it takes is a piece of clothing or an appendage (like a foot) to drag the rest of the person under the car.
Then there is also the massive amounts of what I've seen referred to as "armchair quarterbacking." The cop has precious few seconds to decide his actions. Everyone else, the courts, everyone in this thread, has as long as they want to review it. Most of you people have never been in situations like these. Yet, you would hold others to your ideal scenario of what you would have done.
Cameras are a double edged sword. They only give you one window into what's going on. There could be things going on off sight of the camera that a viewer would be completely unaware of. Including things like, was there someone else in front of dude's car (not saying there was in this case)? Don't ever take what you are given as the absolute truth of what occurred there. Even when you have video or other physical evidence it will never tell the whole story by itself.
I also feel the criminal indictment of the officer is due to public pressure. Rather than actual facts presented. Remember, you can be indicted for self-defense killings. Self-defense is only an affirmative defense at trial in the US. A self-defense claim will not prevent a trial from happening, even if the overwhelming amount of evidence says its self defense.
Kigen, this cop is a murderer. And if it was legally sanctioned, the laws need to change because this type of behavior is unacceptable. Of course a car can be used as a weapon. It was not being used as one in this context, it was being used to get away. Those 'precious seconds' were used WRONGLY by the officer, because he felt it was in his jursidction to shoot and kill an unarmed fleeing suspect as opposed to backing the fuck up away from the vehicle as it sped off. He chose to draw his weapon because that was how he was trained to respond - the training needs to change.
It's surprising so many people are blaming the cop who tried to defuse what would potentially turn into a high-speed pursuit by attempting to turn off the car, got tangled up, dragged, and as a result shot the driver.
Because it would have been so much better for the cop to just let it turn into a pursuit without trying, especially given the way the person was acting (if you're willing to brazenly turn on the car, put it into drive, and try to speed off with a cop standing right there, I really do wonder what this guy was so desperate to hide).
Did the guy running "deserve to die" for doing so, no. It isn't about "deserving" though; running from police or resisting arrest come with a risk of being hurt or killed. Through a chain of unfortunate events instigated by the driver deciding to run, the officer apparently ended up being tangled/dragged by the vehicle and discharged his gun, killing the person.
If that is the scenario that played out (I honestly think the dash-cam footage would be more useful in determining if that is the case), then I don't see any fault in the officer's actions from a moral standpoint.
This is though, regardless, just another case of someone trying to fight the police on the street, rather than in the courtroom (metaphorically in this case). Though I suspect, given the behavior of the driver, he wouldn't have won in the courtroom either. It is a shame someone died, but it was, in my opinion, of their own doing.
[editline]30th July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Flameon;48329629]Kigen, this cop is a murderer. And if it was legally sanctioned, the laws need to change because this type of behavior is unacceptable. Of course a car can be used as a weapon. It was not being used as one in this context, it was being used to get away. Those 'precious seconds' were used WRONGLY by the officer, because he felt it was in his jursidction to shoot and kill an unarmed fleeing suspect as opposed to backing the fuck up away from the vehicle as it sped off. He chose to draw his weapon because that was how he was trained to respond - the training needs to change.[/QUOTE]
If the cop stepped back and mag dumped into the car, I would completely agree with you. Instead, he made an attempt to defuse the situation quickly by turning off the car, which is somehow being viewed as a negative action because a high-speed pursuit is clearly the better option here. Or, better yet, just let him drive off and hope he was acting shiftly because of some weed.
If the person had cooperated with police, he would be alive today; probably in jail, but alive. Instead, he endangered his own life, the officer's life, and any nearby civilians. Again, it's a shame he died because it was completely unnecessary, but ultimately he took the risk and ended up dead.
All these armchair generals up this thread. Damn.
Sure he was probably afraid the cop was going to find something in his car, but the cop was indited for this murder and obviously for damn good reasons.
Because when a cop shooting yet another black man, and actually get indited for it, you know it's nothing you can cover up or defend.
The most obvious solution would have been to tase the keys in the leg. The best non-lethal takedown on a fleeing criminal.
[QUOTE=Chernobyl426;48329386]Drive recklessly. If you run from an officer it's assumed that you're not afraid to take risks. Taking risks includes driving recklessly and not following the laws that keep people safe on the road.
Endangering the lives of other people by driving recklessly and not following the laws that keep people safe on the road.
Fight the officer as in resisting arrest and trying to keep the door shut.[/QUOTE]
now what about reckless policework?
[editline]30th July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kigen;48329611]I fear for our future where people think shit that happens on the TV and Movies is actually real. So many of the "cop is a murder" type comments seemed to be based on mistaken beliefs of things seen on fictional shows.
A car is a very large and dangerous object to be right next to when its moving, it doesn't have to be going any faster than a person walks to do serious bodily harm. All it takes is a piece of clothing or an appendage (like a foot) to drag the rest of the person under the car.
Then there is also the massive amounts of what I've seen referred to as "armchair quarterbacking." The cop has precious few seconds to decide his actions. Everyone else, the courts, everyone in this thread, has as long as they want to review it. Most of you people have never been in situations like these. Yet, you would hold others to your ideal scenario of what you would have done.
Cameras are a double edged sword. They only give you one window into what's going on. There could be things going on off sight of the camera that a viewer would be completely unaware of. Including things like, was there someone else in front of dude's car (not saying there was in this case)? Don't ever take what you are given as the absolute truth of what occurred there. Even when you have video or other physical evidence it will never tell the whole story by itself.
I also feel the criminal indictment of the officer is due to public pressure. Rather than actual facts presented. Remember, you can be indicted for self-defense killings. Self-defense is only an affirmative defense at trial in the US. A self-defense claim will not prevent a trial from happening, even if the overwhelming amount of evidence says its self defense.[/QUOTE]
which is necessary. after all the state is licensing humans to kill other humans. it needs to be treated with the most care.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48326811]Any reason cop pulled out a gun like that anyway?[/QUOTE]
Because cars are considered deadly weapons? And if you're a cop arms deep into the front, you very easily could get caught under the vehicle, dragged and killed.
[QUOTE=amute;48331038]Because cars are considered deadly weapons? And if you're a cop arms deep into the front, you very easily could get caught under the vehicle, dragged and killed.[/QUOTE]
He shouldn't have been reaching into the car at all.
[QUOTE=gastyne;48331084]He shouldn't have been reaching into the car at all.[/QUOTE]
So a high speed chase through a neighborhood is better than a quick attempt to take the keys away from someone who's clearly trying to run away?
[QUOTE=willer;48331369]So a high speed chase through a neighborhood is better than a quick attempt to take the keys away from someone who's clearly trying to run away?[/QUOTE]
The cop shouldn't have stopped him in the first place.
[QUOTE=gastyne;48331512]The cop shouldn't have stopped him in the first place.[/QUOTE]
why not?
[QUOTE=Tetsmega;48330068]The most obvious solution would have been to tase the keys in the leg. The best non-lethal takedown on a fleeing criminal.[/QUOTE]
Nice fucking meme reply?
Anyway ugh.. arguing [I]against[/I] here seems kinda redundant to me. People will find plenty of reasons as to why it was justified. And with righteous and mighty looking arguments too like "resisting arrest, endangering the lives of others, laws that keep people safe, not afraid taking risks, using vehicle as a dangerous weapon" etc., etc. Not to mention it was under slightly suspicious circumstances too.
I just find it really fucking sad that one minute they're talking peacefully, the driver is reaching in and out of the glove compartment too without the cop freaking out, and the next minute driver is shot in the face.
Also talking about vehicles being dangerous weapons, remember relative safety.
They are technically very dangerous, but A car can't just immediately turn like 90 degrees and run you over from a stand still if you are standing next to it. In WWII, tanks were countered by getting close to them (mostly for the lack of better anti-tank weapons) and working from there. And on the contrary to a car, being next to an alligator is much more dangerous than being in front of it, because it can lash out sideways faster than move forwards. There was however a risk of being locked to the driver's window and being sucked under the wheels.
[QUOTE=gastyne;48331512]The cop shouldn't have stopped him in the first place.[/QUOTE]
What's wrong with enforcing the law?
[editline]30th July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;48331576]Nice fucking meme reply?
Anyway ugh.. arguing [I]against[/I] here seems kinda redundant to me. People will find plenty of reasons as to why it was justified. And with righteous and mighty looking arguments too like "resisting arrest, endangering the lives of others, laws that keep people safe, not afraid taking risks, using vehicle as a dangerous weapon" etc., etc. Not to mention it was under slightly suspicious circumstances too.
I just find it really fucking sad that one minute they're talking peacefully, the driver is reaching in and out of the glove compartment too without the cop freaking out, and the next minute driver is shot in the face.
Also talking about vehicles being dangerous weapons, remember relative safety.
They are technically very dangerous, but A car can't just immediately turn like 90 degrees and run you over from a stand still if you are standing next to it. In WWII, tanks were countered by getting close to them (mostly for the lack of better anti-tank weapons) and working from there. And on the contrary to a car, being next to an alligator is much more dangerous than being in front of it, because it can lash out sideways faster than move forwards. [B]There was however a risk of being locked to the driver's window and being sucked under the wheels.[/B][/QUOTE]
There you go. And don't even start about how he shouldn't have reached in. High speed pursuits are no joke. People get run over.
[QUOTE=Apache249;48331607]There you go. And don't even start about how he shouldn't have reached in. High speed pursuits are no joke. People get run over.[/QUOTE]
Oh I don't know what exactly he should or shouldn't have done.
I'm not sure if reaching inside for the keys in the ignition is the best idea, with the driver possibly even having a concealed weapon somewhere in his reach inside the car. I don't know.
Couldn't he just immediately pull a gun on him and command the driver to stop and exit the vehicle? If you get a gun pulled to your face, you don't have much choice but to comply. This driver certainly didn't see that coming, it happened rly fast.
Perhaps the police officers should be more clear, like when arresting people. Perhaps they should clearly state for the pulled over driver as the first thing, that in case they attempt to drive off, the officers are trained and instructed to kill them.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;48329770]It's surprising so many people are blaming the cop who tried to defuse what would potentially turn into a high-speed pursuit by attempting to turn off the car, got tangled up, dragged, and as a result shot the driver.
Because it would have been so much better for the cop to just let it turn into a pursuit without trying, especially given the way the person was acting (if you're willing to brazenly turn on the car, put it into drive, and try to speed off with a cop standing right there, I really do wonder what this guy was so desperate to hide).
Did the guy running "deserve to die" for doing so, no. It isn't about "deserving" though; running from police or resisting arrest come with a risk of being hurt or killed. Through a chain of unfortunate events instigated by the driver deciding to run, the officer apparently ended up being tangled/dragged by the vehicle and discharged his gun, killing the person.
If that is the scenario that played out (I honestly think the dash-cam footage would be more useful in determining if that is the case), then I don't see any fault in the officer's actions from a moral standpoint.
This is though, regardless, just another case of someone trying to fight the police on the street, rather than in the courtroom (metaphorically in this case). Though I suspect, given the behavior of the driver, he wouldn't have won in the courtroom either. It is a shame someone died, but it was, in my opinion, of their own doing.
[editline]30th July 2015[/editline]
If the cop stepped back and mag dumped into the car, I would completely agree with you. Instead, he made an attempt to defuse the situation quickly by turning off the car, which is somehow being viewed as a negative action because a high-speed pursuit is clearly the better option here. Or, better yet, just let him drive off and hope he was acting shiftly because of some weed.
If the person had cooperated with police, he would be alive today; probably in jail, but alive. Instead, he endangered his own life, the officer's life, and any nearby civilians. Again, it's a shame he died because it was completely unnecessary, but ultimately he took the risk and ended up dead.[/QUOTE]
There is something wrong with our laws that we allow police officers to use lethal force in these situations. How can you possibly say that from a moral perspective this is okay? There is nothing moral about shooting someone, point blank in the face, simply because they are running away from the police. That isn't moral. The punishment for running from the police should not be death - unless you think that is an appropriate punishment, there is no way this situation is at all moral. It might be LEGAL, but if it is the laws need to change.
The only risk running from the police should be is increasing your jail time, not your life.
Thing is, the officer wasn't given any time to do that. Should he have made it more obvious that he didn't in fact wish for him to start the car and drive away?
[editline]30th July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Flameon;48332214]There is something wrong with our laws that we allow police officers to use lethal force in these situations. How can you possibly say that from a moral perspective this is okay? There is nothing moral about shooting someone, point blank in the face, simply because they are running away from the police. That isn't moral. The punishment for running from the police should not be death - unless you think that is an appropriate punishment, there is no way this situation is at all moral. It might be LEGAL, but if it is the laws need to change.
The only risk running from the police should be is increasing your jail time, not your life.[/QUOTE]
When you run from the police, you put the police and innocent bystanders at risk. In fact, just a few months ago I personally witnessed a high speed pursuit which resulted in one dead and several injured pedestrians. So forgive me if I'd rather have a pursuit ended before it can even begin.
[QUOTE=Apache249;48332229]
When you run from the police, you put the police and innocent bystanders at risk. In fact, just a few months ago I personally witnessed a high speed pursuit which resulted in one dead and several injured pedestrians. So forgive me if I'd rather have a pursuit ended before it can even begin.[/QUOTE]
Right, so running from the police in a car should be pre-emptively handled by killing the driver? I don't want to live in a society where those are acceptable rules for engagement by the law.
[QUOTE=Apache249;48332229]Thing is, the officer wasn't given any time to do that. Should he have made it more obvious that he didn't in fact wish for him to start the car and drive away?[/QUOTE]
Yes, perhaps he should have made it more obvious or formally clear that he [I]will kill him[/I] if he doesn't do something as ordered.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;48331859]
Couldn't he just immediately pull a gun on him and command the driver to stop and exit the vehicle? If you get a gun pulled to your face, you don't have much choice but to comply. This driver certainly didn't see that coming, it happened rly fast.[/QUOTE]
And not give him a chance to act civil and cooperate? That's pretty fucked up.
[QUOTE=Tetsmega;48332611]And not give him a chance to act civil and cooperate? That's pretty fucked up.[/QUOTE]
Of course? Point is the cop would be in the power position, and it's the driver who got shot in the face anyway. He was acting civil and cooperative until about where he didn't take off the seat belt, and attempted to drive off as the cop reached inside his vehicle. And then [I]immediately[/I] got killed by the cop. It happened fast.
Anyway, I'm not sure if the information is out yet, who was this guy? The driver I mean, did he really live just around the corner, not a stolen vehicle etc.? Because he could be a young male almost literally like any of us here. Which makes this fucking sad. Sure, he may have played his part in his own death, but he died for absolutely nothing.
[QUOTE=gastyne;48330063]Sure he was probably afraid the cop was going to find something in his car, but the cop was indited for this murder and obviously for damn good reasons.
Because when a cop shooting yet another black man, and actually get indited for it, you know it's nothing you can cover up or defend.[/QUOTE]
This has exactly nothing to do with the color of the mans skin
Hopefully the cop is found guilty. It's amazing the lengths people will go to justify instantly killing someone fleeing from a traffic stop.
[QUOTE=Flameon;48332271]Right, so running from the police in a car should be pre-emptively handled by killing the driver? I don't want to live in a society where those are acceptable rules for engagement by the law.[/QUOTE]
Running away from the police is usually inherently dangerous. Someone running away in a car isn't going to go the speed limit and slow down at pedestrian crossings or stop at a stop sign. People say that running away from the police is a stupid thing to do not just because you're going to get caught and charged for it but because, in the heat of the moment, you didn't realize that the message you're sending to everyone is "I'm willing to accidentally kill or maim anyone that I come across just to buy some time for myself." At that point it's not the officer's job to keep you safe, but to keep everyone else safe, and that means taking you at the very least out of the big, blunt, 1000 lbs. moving box that can go 100 mph.
I think reaching in and trying to take the keys was the right thing to do, to stop a potentially deadly car chase from even starting when the car was turned on. I agree with Bat-Shit that he should have made it much more clear that he was pointing a gun at his head, but there was a big time constraint since he was being dragged along with the car. TBH, he shouldn't have really pulled his gun out in my opinion, but every police officer is shown videos of routine traffic stops ending with the cop getting shot or tackled or knocked out and then killed, and I can understand the effect it has on them.
Semi-Off Topic
In my opinion, I don't understand why cops chase vehicles when people run off- if you have the license plate number you can just contact him later after everything's cooled down, and avoid having innocent bystanders potentially hurt. In this case it could have been the man drives off, the officer puts a fine/arrest notice on his record and then they come find him a day or two later to settle things. Running away from the cops shouldn't be seen as a "hail-mary" tactic to get out of trouble, but a stupid act that only buys you a few hours or days before you have to pay for what you've done.
[QUOTE=willer;48333153]Running away from the police is usually inherently dangerous. Someone running away in a car isn't going to go the speed limit and slow down at pedestrian crossings or stop at a stop sign. People say that running away from the police is a stupid thing to do not just because you're going to get caught and charged for it but because, in the heat of the moment, you didn't realize that the message you're sending to everyone is "I'm willing to accidentally kill or maim anyone that I come across just to buy some time for myself." At that point it's not the officer's job to keep you safe, but to keep everyone else safe, and that means taking you at the very least out of the big, blunt, 1000 lbs. moving box that can go 100 mph.
I think reaching in and trying to take the keys was the right thing to do, to stop a potentially deadly car chase from even starting when the car was turned on. I agree with Bat-Shit that he should have made it much more clear that he was pointing a gun at his head, but there was a big time constraint since he was being dragged along with the car. TBH, he shouldn't have really pulled his gun out in my opinion, but every police officer is shown videos of routine traffic stops ending with the cop getting shot or tackled or knocked out and then killed, and I can understand the effect it has on them.[/QUOTE]
Dude, are you listening to yourself? The officer would be justified in threatening or using lethal force because there is a CHANCE that the dude driving away won't slow down and will instead hit pedestrians? What the fuck?
I am honestly shocked how blood thirsty we must be as a society to not be in arms over someone being killed because they decided to drive away from a police officer. And not only that, we are defending his actions? "Oh he was driving away from the police, he was clearly a threat to all of us." Like... what??? A threat to the well being of society is a police force whose threshold for when lethal force is appropriate is far too low, not Debose.
And the reason he pulled his gun is because he was trained to do so! This 'cops vs the world' mentality that we are making excuses for is exactly the problem. If an officer approaches everyday citizens like they citizens want to murder the police officer, and if they can't keep their cool and not kill unarmed civilians, they don't deserve the job - not only that, they should be arrested for murder.
[QUOTE=Flameon;48333222]Dude, are you listening to yourself? The officer would be justified in threatening or using lethal force because there is a CHANCE that the dude driving away won't slow down and will instead hit pedestrians? What the fuck?
I am honestly shocked how blood thirsty we must be as a society to not be in arms over someone being killed because they decided to drive away from a police officer. And not only that, we are defending his actions? "Oh he was driving away from the police, he was clearly a threat to all of us." Like... what??? A threat to the well being of society is a police force whose threshold for when lethal force is appropriate is far too low, not Debose.
And the reason he pulled his gun is because he was trained to do so! This 'cops vs the world' mentality that we are making excuses for is exactly the problem. If an officer approaches everyday citizens like they citizens want to murder the police officer, and if they can't keep their cool and not kill unarmed civilians, they don't deserve the job - not only that, they should be arrested for murder.[/QUOTE]
Have you ever seen a high speed chase where someone running from law enforcement stops at a stop light?, All the ones I see they always attempt to drive around obstacles if they even slow down at all.
Not to mention 65 years ago the idea of an officer NOT drawing their weapon on an unarmed detained civilian that chose to run was more or less unheard of.
If people simply cooperated there would be no need for lethal force to factor into the interaction at all. The only difference nowadays is people feel that arguing with police or resisting detainment is somehow going to work out for them, if you think you did nothing wrong we have a place for you to talk about that, a courthouse. Not to mention bodycams can support a civilians argument just as much as it can an officers in a peaceful arrest without any incidents.
If you HAVE to absolutely blame someone for how police handle situations, blame the trigger happy criminals through the years that warranted and justified the need for such drastic sounding measures to be taken to ensure the safety of the officer.
[QUOTE=Flameon;48333222]Dude, are you listening to yourself? The officer would be justified in threatening or using lethal force because there is a CHANCE that the dude driving away won't slow down and will instead hit pedestrians? What the fuck?
I am honestly shocked how blood thirsty we must be as a society to not be in arms over someone being killed because they decided to drive away from a police officer. And not only that, we are defending his actions? "Oh he was driving away from the police, he was clearly a threat to all of us." Like... what??? A threat to the well being of society is a police force whose threshold for when lethal force is appropriate is far too low, not Debose.
And the reason he pulled his gun is because he was trained to do so! This 'cops vs the world' mentality that we are making excuses for is exactly the problem. If an officer approaches everyday citizens like they citizens want to murder the police officer, and if they can't keep their cool and not kill unarmed civilians, they don't deserve the job - not only that, they should be arrested for murder.[/QUOTE]
Didn't read the part where I said he should have made it more clear that he had his gun out- or the part where I said he shouldn't have had his gun out in the first place.
People who run away from police ARE a threat to everyone around them. I don't understand how people can't get that. People die all the time even when they follow all the rules just from stupid mistakes- is it ok for an untrained civilian under a lot of pressure to be allowed to drive like a maniac in a neighborhood? The cop is in the wrong for doing his best to keep that from happening?
They are trained to have their guns ready because this is America, where almost anybody can have a gun. This isn't like in Europe where there's a very good chance that nobody will have a gun- shootings happen all the time and cops have to deal with that. If that doesn't seem like a job worth having to you then congratulations: you have some sense of self-preservation. How many people would raise their hands when asked "Do you want to put your life in danger every day by dealing with people at their worst, in a country where guns are cheap and common, for not that great of pay?"
[QUOTE=willer;48333153]
Semi-Off Topic
In my opinion, I don't understand why cops chase vehicles when people run off- if you have the license plate number you can just contact him later after everything's cooled down, and avoid having innocent bystanders potentially hurt. In this case it could have been the man drives off, the officer puts a fine/arrest notice on his record and then they come find him a day or two later to settle things. Running away from the cops shouldn't be seen as a "hail-mary" tactic to get out of trouble, but a stupid act that only buys you a few hours or days before you have to pay for what you've done.[/QUOTE]
Problem is identification. A license plate only identifies the owner, not the driver. And a cop has to have positive identification of the suspect(s) to arrest or fine them.
Where cops have adopted a no pursuit policy incidents of running from cops as soon as they turn on their lights sky rocket. Because they know that the cop cannot give them a fine/arrest if they haven't been identified.
[QUOTE=Kigen;48333538]Problem is identification. A license plate only identifies the owner, not the driver. And a cop has to have positive identification of the suspect(s) to arrest or fine them.
Where cops have adopted a no pursuit policy incidents of running from cops as soon as they turn on their lights sky rocket. Because they know that the cop cannot give them a fine/arrest if they haven't been identified.[/QUOTE]
For stolen vehicles or other instances where the owner of the vehicle has no say in who's driving I think an exception should be made, but aside from that I'd still be ok with only using the registration number to figure things out. I know that this is just anecdotal evidence, but my brother is notorious for lending his car to shady people and paying the price when they cause an accident or brake down and then just run away- if he were given all the fines and responsibility I think he and people like him would become much more cautious when lending vehicles or driving recklessly.
And once that happens the fine/jail time for resisting arrest would still be present- once the person makes it clear that they won't stop for an officer the officer should stop pursuit and turn off the lights. Generally the way I'd have it be is a "no pressure" kind of deal where people aren't put in a spot where if they try to get away they have to be erratic and dangerous to everyone. There would still be the discouragement of knowing that it's an additional arrest or charge for running away, but there wouldn't be an escalation.
It's kind of a naive idea but it would be great if it could work out.
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