Why even bring up 'feminazi's'? Are you trying to say that you being offended by them means transpeople have a less valid reason to be depressed?
[QUOTE=kevin32891;41480963]Nope but I have to deal with femnazis almost everyday with their chanting on campus.
It doesn't make me want to commit suicide, just makes me want to staple their mouths shut.[/QUOTE]
You obviously don't know what you're talking about with transgender people. The reason transgender people commit suicide so often is a combination of absolutely despising themselves and other things such as self confidence issues and people refusing to accept them for something they cannot help.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41480993]This is changing though. Feminists are much quicker to change the movement to being transgender inclusive. There's a pretty strong division in feminism now, where young feminists are much more likely to accept transgender individuals and treat trans women as if they were cisgender women.
Society is not willing to take that same step.[/QUOTE]
I know. I don't consider feminazis and feminists to be the same.
I don't think this is the right way at all. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of having a place where gender identity is not an issue for kids, but I don't really like the idea in the long run.
The way towards acceptance is not to make special camps for all the special children. THEY don't need the company of each other as much as all the asshole kids who will otherwise grow up to be simple-minded bigoted idiots need to get into touch with other ideas and lifestyles. They can't even put out the name of the camp or the kids out of fear of harassment. It's all fine and dandy that those kids can feel good about themselves for a weekend but once they're back in school they'll still be freaks and weirdos.
Acceptance and understanding doesn't happen within a group, it's the interaction with the outside. Show all the other kids that it's okay for boys to wear girl's clothes, I think they themselves know pretty well that they can.
I used to play with dolls an wear makeup as a kid, I thought it was normal and I felt really casual about it. I didn't need other kids to reassure me of that, but other kids showing you that it's a heinous, disgusting thing to do, that's where the problem starts.
Then again, I grew up to be a massive faggot, so... yeah
[QUOTE=H4ngman;41481048]I don't think this is the right way at all. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of having a place where gender identity is not an issue for kids, but I don't really like the idea in the long run.
The way towards acceptance is not to make special camps for all the special children. THEY don't need the company of each other as much as all the asshole kids who will otherwise grow up to be simple-minded bigoted idiots need to get into touch with other ideas and lifestyles. They can't even put out the name of the camp or the kids out of fear of harassment. It's all fine and dandy that those kids can feel good about themselves for a weekend but once they're back in school they'll still be freaks and weirdos.
Acceptance and understanding doesn't happen within a group, it's the interaction with the outside. Show all the other kids that it's okay for boys to wear girl's clothes, I think they themselves know pretty well that they can.
I used to play with dolls an wear makeup as a kid, I thought it was normal and I felt really casual about it. I didn't need other kids to reassure me of that, but other kids showing you that it's a heinous, disgusting thing to do, that's where the problem starts.
Then again, I grew up to be a massive faggot, so... yeah[/QUOTE]
This camp gives these kids a little push. They might be thrown back in to real life full of discrimination and assholes but them just knowing that they're OK as they are is a booster.
[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;41481028]I know. I don't consider feminazis and feminists to be the same.[/QUOTE]
As a feminist/ally myself, I don't really agree with the idea of "feminazis," but I think it's also important to understand that transphobia, racism, and etc is still within the vein of feminism too.
I mean, some of the most vocal and appreciated feminists are white women, whereas women of color are shoved to the side. As in the case of Wendy Davis, where white feminists started attributing Van de Putte's quotations to her.
I know you're probably aware of this, just putting some food for thought out there though.
[editline]16th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=H4ngman;41481048]I don't think this is the right way at all. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of having a place where gender identity is not an issue for kids, but I don't really like the idea in the long run.
The way towards acceptance is not to make special camps for all the special children. THEY don't need the company of each other as much as all the asshole kids who will otherwise grow up to be simple-minded bigoted idiots need to get into touch with other ideas and lifestyles. They can't even put out the name of the camp or the kids out of fear of harassment. It's all fine and dandy that those kids can feel good about themselves for a weekend but once they're back in school they'll still be freaks and weirdos.
Acceptance and understanding doesn't happen within a group, it's the interaction with the outside. Show all the other kids that it's okay for boys to wear girl's clothes, I think they themselves know pretty well that they can.
I used to play with dolls an wear makeup as a kid, I thought it was normal and I felt really casual about it. I didn't need other kids to reassure me of that, but other kids showing you that it's a heinous, disgusting thing to do, that's where the problem starts.
Then again, I grew up to be a massive faggot, so... yeah[/QUOTE]
This isn't true. One of the biggest deterrents from suicide is the ability to understand that there is a community of people who can empathize with your plight.
Acceptance is one of the biggest motivators for trans people. This is why community projects for marginalized groups - such as LGBT and Puerto Rican parades - are significant within their respective communities.
It's natural within our society to look for like-minded people who share our interests. After all - why are we all on Facepunch to begin with? Because we're video gamers looking for a community to talk about video games. Our interests and common goals drive us together and keep us sane. Not the opposite.
Acceptance within society is important, but it should never trump the individual's ability to find acceptance within their own life. And besides, the only way any group can ever truly earn acceptance is through an organized social movement. As in the case of the LGBTQA community. As in the case of the Civil Rights Movement. As in the case of the Suffragettes. Etc.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41480993]This is changing though. Feminists are much quicker to change the movement to being transgender inclusive. There's a pretty strong division in feminism now, where young feminists are much more likely to accept transgender individuals and treat trans women as if they were cisgender women.
Society is not willing to take that same step.[/QUOTE]
Also, transphobic rad fems make some kind of sense in that they've probably had bad experiences with men and worry about people they think are men infiltrating the movement etc. Of course, this idea is completely wrong and harmful, but you can [I]kind[/I] of understand where they're coming from as opposed to general transphobia which appears to just be people finding things icky and trying to maintain the status quo.
[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;41481028]I know. I don't consider feminazis and feminists to be the same.[/QUOTE]
fyi feminazis aren't a thing unless you go on Tumblr specifically looking for them. that said, certain feminists do have real issues with trans people, and that's dumb of them because they usually also have people who listen and agree with them. it sucks especially for me to hear that dumb bullshit though, because when your usual vaguely conservative FP poster says something like "oh, this action by X group cheapens the whole movement" or whatever, i know that the movement has actually been cheapened because of these transphobic feminists who themselves have followers who agree with them.
but fortunately that's gradually changing as Reimu says, so you won't have to be worried about that shit too much longer. wheels of progress are a-turnin' man
[QUOTE=Tweevle;41481210]Also, transphobic rad fems make some kind of sense in that they've probably had bad experiences with men and worry about people they think are men infiltrating the movement etc. Of course, this idea is completely wrong and harmful, but you can [I]kind[/I] of understand where they're coming from as opposed to general transphobia which appears to just be people finding things icky and trying to maintain the status quo.[/QUOTE]
It's a good point, but it also trivializes the issue.
There are certain times when anger towards men is justified, and transphobia is not one of them. I honestly get upset when I see cisgender women talk about how gender abolitionism is wrong. If anyone, they should know from their own experiences that gender constructs often lead towards oppression. It's a huge issue where many privileged feminists draw the line as soon as they see their own issues settled (especially when it comes to race, wages, etc).
Likewise, trans men and women are usually extremely sensitive about gender and feminism too. At the very least, they often make wonderful allies. Or at least they would; instead, many trans* folks become bitter and resentful on account of it. Like you said, it's understandable why rad fems would be upset, but I can't stand with a rad fem if they're not willing to open their eyes. It's one of the most hypocritical things within transphobic feminists.
At least most young feminists agree that feminism is a movement that needs support across the gender spectrum - just not leadership and agenda-setting from men. Almost every feminist has told me one way or another that they're relieved when they see a male ally who respects that.
Anybody who thinks feminazis have any actual ability to change things is somewhat laughable. Their numbers are so small and their views so extreme they wouldn't be able to win any elections (much like with real nazis or communists).
That said, the feminists who have the actual ability to change things are pretty moderate in their views and they won't bring about a hellhole of moral degeneracy.
[QUOTE=Cone;41481259]i know that the movement has actually been cheapened because of these transphobic feminists who themselves have followers who agree with them.
but fortunately that's gradually changing as Reimu says, so you won't have to be worried about that shit too much longer. wheels of progress are a-turnin' man[/QUOTE]
So true. MRAs usually don't tackle the trans* issue too, because they're so regressive they don't even want to tackle the possibility that there are transgender men out there.
I honestly think today's Gender Studies academics - and future professors - will be trans-inclusive. My experience with undergrads and grads has taught me that the academic climate for Gender Studies is about to see a massive upheavel where 3rd wave and the upcoming wave will overshadow previous thoughts. I'm an officer on an inclusive literature magazine on campus, and we're part of a Social Justice feminism coalition that invites any social justice group on campus. It seems like today's trend in social justice is any group against the socially oppressive establishment is a good idea. I feel like that's the future in the upcoming years.
[QUOTE=H4ngman;41481048]I don't think this is the right way at all. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of having a place where gender identity is not an issue for kids, but I don't really like the idea in the long run.
The way towards acceptance is not to make special camps for all the special children. THEY don't need the company of each other as much as all the asshole kids who will otherwise grow up to be simple-minded bigoted idiots need to get into touch with other ideas and lifestyles. They can't even put out the name of the camp or the kids out of fear of harassment. It's all fine and dandy that those kids can feel good about themselves for a weekend but once they're back in school they'll still be freaks and weirdos.
Acceptance and understanding doesn't happen within a group, it's the interaction with the outside. Show all the other kids that it's okay for boys to wear girl's clothes, I think they themselves know pretty well that they can.
I used to play with dolls an wear makeup as a kid, I thought it was normal and I felt really casual about it. I didn't need other kids to reassure me of that, but other kids showing you that it's a heinous, disgusting thing to do, that's where the problem starts.
Then again, I grew up to be a massive faggot, so... yeah[/QUOTE]
The problem is that the vast majority of people don't understand transsexuals at all. Compare that to gays. To most people it's pretty clear what gay means. Even if it's the crudest way of thinking about it (i.e. "dudes wanting to fuck other dudes in the ass"), people know what it means, to a degree. It's just a different sexual orientation. You could explain it with one bullet point if you needed to.
Transsexualism, however, is not an orientation. It's on a completely different level. I'm bold enough to say that I know a thing or two about it, but it's barely enough to even understand what transsexuals have to go through, dealing with themselves and with other people.
It'll take years before gays start being completely ignored (as in, tolerated and accepted) in the western world. I could see that happening within our lifetimes. As for transsexuals, I doubt it. Perhaps the general public will start to understand what it's about by that time - blind hate will take even longer.
This post is probably unreadable and a bad representative of the situation, so I apologise. I just find the general attitude towards transsexuals downright depressing.
[QUOTE=Murkrow;41481367]Transsexualism, however, is not an orientation. It's on a completely different level. I'm bold enough to say that I know a thing or two about it, but it's barely enough to even understand what transsexuals have to go through, dealing with themselves and with other people.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't help either when we live in a society that isn't willing to explain that sex and gender are opposites and that sex does not equal gender. Western education - especially in America - never bothers to even bring up the distinction. Even in sexual education and Health classes.
The West is massively ignorant when it comes to gender-sensitivity. If it wasn't for the Internet, I'm sure we would see an even sharper trans* suicide rate.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41481317]It's a good point, but it also trivializes the issue.
There are certain times when anger towards men is justified, and transphobia is not one of them. I honestly get upset when I see cisgender women talk about how gender abolitionism is wrong. If anyone, they should know from their own experiences that gender constructs often lead towards oppression. It's a huge issue where many privileged feminists draw the line as soon as they see their own issues settled (especially when it comes to race, wages, etc).
Likewise, trans men and women are usually extremely sensitive about gender and feminism too. At the very least, they often make wonderful allies. Or at least they would; instead, many trans* folks become bitter and resentful on account of it. Like you said, it's understandable why rad fems would be upset, but I can't stand with a rad fem if they're not willing to open their eyes. It's one of the most hypocritical things within transphobic feminists.
At least most young feminists agree that feminism is a movement that needs support across the gender spectrum - just not leadership and agenda-setting from men. Almost every feminist has told me one way or another that they're relieved when they see a male ally who respects that.[/QUOTE]
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you completely. It's terrible that a group intended to be fighting oppression actively contributes to another group's oppression, even if their transphobia makes more sense than that of your average transphobe.
[editline]edit[/editline]
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41481328]Anybody who thinks feminazis have any actual ability to change things is somewhat laughable. Their numbers are so small and their views so extreme they wouldn't be able to win any elections (much like with real nazis or communists).
That said, the feminists who have the actual ability to change things are pretty moderate in their views and they won't bring about a hellhole of moral degeneracy.[/QUOTE]
Generally, yeah, although some transphobic feminists have had a fair bit of influence e.g. Janice Raymond.
[QUOTE=Tweevle;41481431]Don't get me wrong, I agree with you completely. It's terrible that a group intended to be fighting oppression actively contributes to another group's oppression, even if their transphobia makes more sense than that of your average transphobe.
[editline]edit[/editline]
Generally, yeah, although some transphobic feminists have had a fair bit of influence e.g. Janice Raymond.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. It's important to recognize how transphobic rad fems think about transgender people, after all. Especially when there are influential transphobic women out there, who are praised by privileged cisgender feminists.
why is it only a boys camp
As long as everyone involved is having a good time, I don't mind the camp at all.
[QUOTE=layla;41479669]The world would be a much better place if there weren't closed minded people like you holding us back.[/QUOTE]
Lmfao you're not serious right. A kid that is 3 dressing up in fucking women's clothing is something I have a problem with. Not girl's clothing. WOMEN'S. 3 YEAR OLD GILS DON'T WEAR HEELS AND MINIPURSES. This camp is sick and certainly is not helping the greater problem, which is teaching the other kids to be accepting.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;41480824]Actually, just about every sociological study on the subject ever conducted begs to differ with your analysis. Gender is not inherent. Gender, and gender roles, are learned through socialization, not genetics. Different societies across the world have different conceptions about gender-appropriate activities, style of dress, status positions, and other societal roles. That's not to say that everybody who grows up in [I]Society A[/I] will conform to [I]Society A's[/I] gender definitions, but the vast majority of people born in it will have a general understanding of what is appropriate for males vs what is appropriate for females. Children raised in an environment where both males and females wear pink dresses and high heels will generally come to accept that pink dresses and high heels are gender neutral, whereas people raised in a society in which pink dresses and high heels are typically only worn by females will see them as feminine, and thus inappropriate for males to wear.
I'm not saying that socialization towards less strictly defined gender roles is a bad thing, mind you; I'm just giving a general explanation on the subject![/QUOTE]This may sound right, but contrasts with the case of David Reimer.
[URL]http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1997-sex-reassignment.html[/URL]
Long story short, David Reimer (one of a pair of twin brothers) accidentally had his genitals seriously damaged during a botched circumcision at seven months old. In part due to the suggestion of Dr. John Money who wanted to use the case to show gender was learned, David recieved reassignment and his parents began to raise him as the girl Brenda. Despite the constant efforts of the parents to raise David as a girl, he never accepted the Brenda identity. He continued to act like a boy and took interest in boyish activities. From his own admission, he only ever acted like a girl to appease his parents and doctors, but it never felt right.
The case of David Reimer was John Money's most crucial and he continuously argued that it proved his hypothesis about gender being a learned characteristic, and it was one of the most important studies used to prove this. But it was frankly a complete failure and actually worked to prove the exact opposite.
[QUOTE=Whiterfire;41481601]Lmfao you're not serious right. A kid that is 3 dressing up in fucking women's clothing is something I have a problem with. Not girl's clothing. WOMEN'S. [B]3 YEAR OLD GILS DON'T WEAR HEELS AND MINIPURSES[/B]. This camp is sick and certainly is not helping the greater problem, which is teaching the other kids to be accepting.[/QUOTE]
says who
also yea it kind of does educate other kids on stuff
when they see this stuff on the news they see how transpeople are being embraced and accepted at camps like this, they're informed at that very point. Whether they agree or disagree is subjective, but a lot of the time they will see it and treat it as more normal.
[QUOTE=Whiterfire;41481601]Lmfao you're not serious right. A kid that is 3 dressing up in fucking women's clothing is something I have a problem with. Not girl's clothing. WOMEN'S. 3 YEAR OLD GILS DON'T WEAR HEELS AND MINIPURSES. This camp is sick and certainly is not helping the greater problem, which is teaching the other kids to be accepting.[/QUOTE]
What's wrong with dressing up in women's clothes?
There's nothing sexual about high heels and minipurses.
[editline]16th July 2013[/editline]
I played with Barbie dolls when I was 8 and I always thought Barbie was rad as fuck.
I guess I'm sick and an awful person :(
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;41481602]This may sound right, but contrasts with the case of David Reimer.
[url]http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1997-sex-reassignment.html[/url]
Long story short, David Reimer (one of a pair of twin brothers) accidentally had his genitals seriously damaged during a botched circumcision at seven months old. In part due to the suggestion of Dr. John Money who wanted to use the case to show gender was learned, David had a full reassignment surgery performed and his parents began to raise him as the girl Brenda. Despite the constant efforts of the parents to raise David as a girl, he never accepted the Brenda identity. He continued to act like a boy and took interest in boyish activities. From his own admission, he only ever acted like a girl to appease his parents and doctors, but it never felt right.
The case of David Reimer was John Money's most crucial and he continuously argued that it proved his hypothesis about gender being a learned characteristic, and it was one of the most important studies used to prove this. But it was frankly a complete failure and actually worked to prove the exact opposite.[/QUOTE]
The point went over your head. If he was raised thinking pink and high heels were manly he'd have wanted to wear them.
[QUOTE=Whiterfire;41481643]The point went over your head. If he was raised thinking pink and high heels were manly he'd have wanted to wear them.[/QUOTE]You literally have no clue what you are talking about, please kindly fuck off. Did you even read what I posted? Did you read the report I linked? Do you know [I]anything[/I]?
[QUOTE=Whiterfire;41481643]The point went over your head. If he was raised thinking pink and high heels were manly he'd have wanted to wear them.[/QUOTE]
Are you trying to say that sex and gender are always one and the same?
If so you have very little experience with non-cisgender people.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;41481666]You literally have no clue what you are talking about, please kindly fuck off. Did you even read what I posted? Did you read the report I linked? Do you know [I]anything[/I]?[/QUOTE]
We're still entirely unsure of the correct definition of gender and what defines it, but Whiterfire here is just being ignorant. Ignore him also.
It's hard to simply ignore the idea that gender and gender roles are influenced by society, because it's all around us. I honestly believe that society has a massive impact on what 'gender' even entails, if we were to just ignore it 100% from this day on, things would be a [I]lot[/I] different
Holy shit this is fucked up,if you believe this is a good thing you need help.
[QUOTE=matty928;41481727]Holy shit this is fucked up,if you believe this is a good thing you need help.[/QUOTE]
thanks for the insightful post
i give it a 9/10
[QUOTE=Reimu;41481619]What's wrong with dressing up in women's clothes?
There's nothing sexual about high heels and minipurses
I played with Barbie dolls when I was 8 and I always thought Barbie was rad as fuck.
I guess I'm sick and an awful person :([/QUOTE]
Sick and aweful person
You realize I wasn't talking about the kids right
[QUOTE=Whiterfire;41481739]Sick and aweful person
You realize I wasn't talking about the kids right[/QUOTE]
you can't go around calling camps like this sick and awful without even knowing what they are
they aren't forcing the children to wear things, they are inviting children that don't identify with the gender binary. Not forcing them to stay outside of that binary.
you're making it sound as if the camp conductors are literally abducting innocent children and forcing them to act as a gender they are not. Could not be further from the truth
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41481708]We're still entirely unsure of the correct definition of gender and what defines it, but Whiterfire here is just being ignorant. Ignore him also.
It's hard to simply ignore the idea that gender and gender roles are influenced by society, because it's all around us. I honestly believe that society has a massive impact on what 'gender' even entails, if we were to just ignore it 100% from this day on, things would be a [I]lot[/I] different[/QUOTE]Gender roles are certainly social, there is no question about that. Society determines gender roles without a doubt.
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