A Boys' Camp to Redefine Gender - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;41481772]Gender roles are certainly social, there is no question about that. Society determines gender roles without a doubt.[/QUOTE] Thing is, gender only really matters if gender roles exist. Otherwise there isn't any point on squandering on the topic of Gender. These roles themselves encourage seperation imo, which is a bad thing entirely.

[QUOTE=Reimu;41481691]Are you trying to say that sex and gender are always one and the same? If so you have very little experience with non-cisgender people.[/QUOTE] My fucking god read what I replied to the kid wasn't transgendered he got his penis cut off at birth, was raised as a girl, but wanted to be a boy. If he was raised thinking pink was a boys color he would have wanted pink. It's societal influence. The egyptians have records of transgenderd people but they didn't fucking makr high heals and wear minipurses. [editline]16th July 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41481765]you can't go around calling camps like this sick and awful without even knowing what they are they aren't forcing the children to wear things, they are inviting children that don't identify with the gender binary. Not forcing them to stay outside of that binary. you're making it sound as if the camp conductors are literally abducting innocent children and forcing them to act as a gender they are not. Could not be further from the truth[/QUOTE] Even so he deliberately misread my post and I was just calling him out on it because it made him look dumb. Valid point though.

[QUOTE=Whiterfire;41481792]Even so he deliberately misread my post and I was just calling him out on it because it made him look dumb. Valid point though.[/QUOTE] You're acting like you're forced to go to this camp though. You can be transgendered and say, "This is nice, but I don't even want to dress like this."

While society may not decide the gender of an individual, society [I]does[/I] define what those genders actually entail. X child's gender is male. Y society decides males are associated with the colour purple. X child will then identify with the colour purple [I]because[/I] of Y society's decision/influence If Y Society were to go back in time and change that colour to green, nothing would change. the child would still identify as male and identify with green instead of what previously was purple. tl;dr, society doesn't change the gender. society changes the definition.

This is surprisingly my fetish.

Not to mention, society's influence is often much stronger than education. We know this from simply reading and studying social justice in America. Kids have been taught for years now that MLK Jr, Rosa Parks, the suffragettes, and others were proud speakers against racism and sexism. Yet we still have a major problem where Americans refuse to respect social justice movements.

[QUOTE=Whiterfire;41481792]My fucking god read what I replied to the kid wasn't transgendered he got his penis cut off at birth, was raised as a girl, but wanted to be a boy. If he was raised thinking pink was a boys color he would have wanted pink. It's societal influence. The egyptians have records of transgenderd people but they didn't fucking makr high heals and wear minipurses. [editline]16th July 2013[/editline] Even so he deliberately misread my post and I was just calling him out on it because it made him look dumb. Valid point though.[/QUOTE] why does it bother you so much that these children are doing something they enjoy that doesn't affect you at all

This is fucked up u. I don't know whether its all the estrogen in the water or but goddam.

[QUOTE=Reimu;41481937]Kids have been taught for years now that MLK Jr, Rosa Parks, the suffragettes, and others were proud speakers against racism and sexism. Yet we still have a major problem where Americans refuse to respect social justice movements.[/QUOTE] I think that has more to do with social justice movements usually being full of absolute retards.

Why do you guys keep posting news articles like this, you know on Facepunch they can only end in one way

[QUOTE=Bleach Qeef;41481958]This is fucked up u. I don't know whether its all the estrogen in the water or but goddam.[/QUOTE] Why is it fucked up. Could you please elaborate?

[QUOTE=Riutet;41482067]I think that has more to do with social justice movements usually being full of absolute retards.[/QUOTE] Case in point.

[QUOTE=Reimu;41481619]What's wrong with dressing up in women's clothes?[/QUOTE] perpetuating gender roles, essentializing gender and the gender binary

[QUOTE=Reimu;41482153]Case in point.[/QUOTE] #Realtalk.

[QUOTE=Dori;41482171]perpetuating gender roles, and essentializing gender and the gender binary[/QUOTE] the fact that they're described as women's clothes alone is kind of doing that then again though, different clothes are fit for different body types, but that doesn't really excuse looking down on someone for wearing clothes they aren't 'supposed' to in the end clothes are just fabrics that wear over the body, they shouldn't be used as an identifier, ever

[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;41482233]in the end clothes are just fabrics that wear over the body, they shouldn't be used as an identifier, ever[/QUOTE] er why? If I saw someone who ""looked male"" wearing womens clothing I would assume they were a transwoman and would ask what their preferred gender identity is

[QUOTE=Shadaez;41482306]er why? If I saw someone who ""looked male"" wearing womens clothing I would assume they were a transwoman and would ask what their preferred gender identity is[/QUOTE] that's how it is, but not how it should be in an ideal society people would be recognized as people, not as a binary. people would be truly recognized as equal regardless of their backgrounds or current state of being including gender, sex or race.

[QUOTE=Dori;41482171]perpetuating gender roles, essentializing gender and the gender binary[/QUOTE] The camp isn't saying that transgender people have to dress themselves the way that society dictates. It's just giving the option to trans/questioning kids who want to dress up like that. I agree that we shouldn't treat clothes as if they are tied to one gender or the other. But that's another issue in and of itself. We shouldn't bar trans people from wearing those clothes just because of the gender binary. That's like saying feminists shouldn't dress in micro bikinis, because objectified women do that too. [editline]16th July 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Shadaez;41482306]er why? If I saw someone who ""looked male"" wearing womens clothing I would assume they were a transwoman and would ask what their preferred gender identity is[/QUOTE] In one of my friend's cases this is extremely confusing :v:. I met them when they were just about to come out about their gender, and they dress similarly now to how they did beforehand. Their clothing is very plain. I would have mislabeled them and misnamed them and everything if they hadn't told me on Facebook about their gender. But I think it's up to the transgender individual how they want to dress themselves. The actual issue of "Why should clothing be tied to a gender?" seems like an argument that is more pressing when, as a society, we can accept the fact that sex and gender are not one and the same. But then again, there's probably a way to advance both ideas at the same time.

I dunno, my friend next door thought barbies where fucking the shit. He played with em since he was 4 untill he was 12 and his mom threw it away, guy is a cop now, married and looking into getting a kid.. I don't know about these camps, let the kid grow up as it's supposed to grow up.. let it discoverer stuff for himself.. instead of trying to MAKE him grow up in a certain way. Maybe 20 years later some kids will be like WTF MOM WHAT WHERE YOU THINKEN?

[QUOTE=arthuro12;41483202]I don't know about these camps, let the kid grow up as it's supposed to grow up.. let it discoverer stuff for himself.. instead of trying to MAKE him grow up in a certain way. Maybe 20 years later some kids will be like WTF MOM WHAT WHERE YOU THINKEN?[/QUOTE] uh they aren't being forced to go here, they aren't being made to do this

I don't like the implication made by some in this thread that a boy who wants to play with dolls and wear dresses must be transgender. A girl who wants to play with trucks and videogames isn't necessarily transgender either. Toy and clothing preferences are the products of societal gender roles, they're not innate to either gender. A young boy could like to wear pink dresses and identify as a boy, or he could like to wear pink dresses and identify as a girl, or he could even wear boy's clothes and identify as a girl. Clothing and hobbies aren't legitimate methods of gender identification, especially not from such a young age.

[QUOTE=kevin32891;41480963]Nope but I have to deal with femnazis almost everyday with their chanting on campus. It doesn't make me want to commit suicide, just makes me want to staple their mouths shut.[/QUOTE] Wow did you seriously just compare your struggle with "femnazi's" with being transgender? I didn't know the femnazi's beat you up and forced you into prostitution because no one else would hire you.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;41481602]This may sound right, but contrasts with the case of David Reimer. [URL]http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1997-sex-reassignment.html[/URL] Long story short, David Reimer (one of a pair of twin brothers) accidentally had his genitals seriously damaged during a botched circumcision at seven months old. In part due to the suggestion of Dr. John Money who wanted to use the case to show gender was learned, David recieved reassignment and his parents began to raise him as the girl Brenda. Despite the constant efforts of the parents to raise David as a girl, he never accepted the Brenda identity. He continued to act like a boy and took interest in boyish activities. From his own admission, he only ever acted like a girl to appease his parents and doctors, but it never felt right. The case of David Reimer was John Money's most crucial and he continuously argued that it proved his hypothesis about gender being a learned characteristic, and it was one of the most important studies used to prove this. But it was frankly a complete failure and actually worked to prove the exact opposite.[/QUOTE] Every rule has exceptions, and every society has those that do not conform to its values or perceptions. The fact that there are gender dysphoric people in any society proves that point. The amount of evidence suggesting that gender is a societal construct rather than an implicit trait is so staggering as to essentially be called a fact. And besides that, you're confusing gender with sex. Sex is your physical and biological makeup, whereas gender is the construction of what your sex means in the context of your society. Since sex and gender are different animals, they aren't always interchangeable terms. A biological male could self-identify as the female gender. Even though David was unaware of his sex, he still learned about the societal definitions of male and female genders. He learned what was "for boys" and what was "for girls." David was raised believing his sex was female, but he self-identified as the male gender, and thus adopted the traditionally masculine traits, habits, and roles of his environment. Really, this case only further reinforces the idea that gender is a societal construct. It may go towards providing evidence that you can't force somebody to adopt a particular gender as their identity, but it does nothing to show that gender roles aren't learned.

[QUOTE=Whiterfire;41481643]The point went over your head. If he was raised thinking pink and high heels were manly he'd have wanted to wear them.[/QUOTE] Reasons why you are wrong: 1. Pink used to be manly, high heels were invented for horse riding into battle, how is that not "manly" 2. idk how they are trying to associate stereotypical feminine things with masculinity, no where does it say this. 3. I very much believe the point and this entire article, nay this entire subject, is over your head. [editline]16th July 2013[/editline] also male pronouns

[QUOTE=catbarf;41483356]I don't like the implication made by some in this thread that a boy who wants to play with dolls and wear dresses must be transgender. A girl who wants to play with trucks and videogames isn't necessarily transgender either. Toy and clothing preferences are the products of societal gender roles, they're not innate to either gender. A young boy could like to wear pink dresses and identify as a boy, or he could like to wear pink dresses and identify as a girl, or he could even wear boy's clothes and identify as a girl. Clothing and hobbies aren't legitimate methods of gender identification, especially not from such a young age.[/QUOTE] I liked to play Barbies with my sister as a kid and I'm transgender. My sister liked to play cars with me as a kid (and when she was older she enjoyed working on cars) and isn't transgender. It really simply depends on the person in question. My sister is just a tomboyish girl. I'm biologically male but identify as female while not being overly girly either. (More girly on average than my own sister though.)

[QUOTE=Judas;41480700]probably because the male gender's pretty shit[/QUOTE] I don't know why this is getting dumbs. The stereotypical definition of "male" harmful to millions of men, just like how the stereotypical definition of "female" is harmful to millions of women. Both genders, in the way that society defines them, are shit. So yeah, the male gender is pretty shit.

Its common knowledge that you can't force some one to accept a different gender identity. If these kids are making their own choice, great. If someone else is making a choice for them, the kid will have to rediscover his/herself later on in life. A difficult process.

[QUOTE=Whiterfire;41479474]Fucking 3. Yeah. Ok. First that first grader going to the girls bathroom, now three year olds in women's clothing, clothing that not even 3 year old girls wear? Surely there's a limit somewhere. You won't even remeber stuff that happens when you are 3.[/QUOTE] End of the day, when all's said and done, Who gives a shit about what other people do with their lives?

Come on now... 3 years old? That is way too young to send your kid off to this expression camp.

What is with this gargantuan uprising of transgenderism? Did someone just spray transgender gas everywhere? Since last month I've been hearing incessant stories of "3 year old battles to use the other bathroom" and "3 year old bullied because they are wearing other gender's clothes"