French Communist Party to drop hammer and sickle in controversial decision
168 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39530917]
so how come no other cities rose up at the time to see the revolution safeguarded?
why did the army not defect, or the revolution spread?[/QUOTE]
The Paris Commune was never part of the Communist Revolution, nor was the world ready for one. It's simply proof that a Communist society can exist.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39530917]
so how come no other cities rose up at the time to see the revolution safeguarded?
why did the army not defect, or the revolution spread?[/QUOTE]
the revolution did spread and people were trying to form communist societies.
the problem was the police and army came in and squashed all attempts to set up independent societies.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39530949]the revolution did spread and people were trying to form communist societies.
the problem was the police and army came in and squashed all attempts to set up independent societies.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
There's a reason why so many Communists looked towards the Paris Commune as a prototype for communist society.
then how come the police and army didn't defect
Because they still possessed false consciousness.
One of the benefits of a communist system is that it eliminates the 'dream' that is to become rich in the future and rise in the class system. Thus people work for society rather than profit, so for example scientists might not go to business to make a living and profit. But instead, work for the population and human kind.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39530981]then how come the police and army didn't defect[/QUOTE]
why would they? how is that relevant to anything?
[QUOTE=Reimu;39530983]Because they still possessed false consciousness.[/QUOTE]
what exactly is "false consciousness"?
i read about it and came to the assumption that "if you don't agree with marx you're deluded"
[editline]9th February 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=laserguided;39530985]One of the benefits of a communist system is that it eliminates the 'dream' that is to become rich in the future and rise in the class system. Thus people work for society rather than profit, so for example scientists might not go to business to make a living and profit. But instead, work for the population and human kind.[/QUOTE]
no they would just find other things to compete with
[editline]9th February 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39531002]why would they? how is that relevant to anything?[/QUOTE]
because apparently a communist society is in their best interest
they don't want to be associated with people who killed millions of innocents to secure power for themselves??? shocker
[QUOTE=laserguided;39530985]One of the benefits of a communist system is that it eliminates the 'dream' that is to become rich in the future and rise in the class system. Thus people work for society rather than profit, so for example scientists might not go to business to make a living and profit. But instead, work for the population and human kind.[/QUOTE]
this is actually why i disagree with communism. i think profit incentive is pretty important to motivate people to work harder and do more skilled jobs. the problem is that a capitalist system incentivizes anti-social and destructive behavior. there should be clear rewards for helping to improve society, since humans tend to be both altruistic and greedy at the same time.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39531011]what exactly is "false consciousness"?
i read about it and came to the assumption that "if you don't agree with marx you're deluded"
[editline]9th February 2013[/editline]
[B]no they would just find other things to compete with[/B]
[editline]9th February 2013[/editline]
because apparently a communist society is in their best interest[/QUOTE]
But not for profit, which corrupts science the most.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39531030]the problem is that a capitalist system incentivizes anti-social and destructive behavior.[/QUOTE]
how
[editline]9th February 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=laserguided;39531038]But not for profit, which corrupts science the most.[/QUOTE]
science is corrupted when people do the following:
1. don't understand how it works
2. manipulate it for political purposes
communism corrupts science simply because they both disagree with each other
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39531011]
because apparently a communist society is in their best interest[/QUOTE]
even if it was in their best interest, perception is not always the same as the reality. it's like asking why there are still creationists if evolution has been shown to be true, or why some people still vote for and support neo-nazi groups. not everyone perceives everything in the same way.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39531011]what exactly is "false consciousness"?
i read about it and came to the assumption that "if you don't agree with marx you're deluded"[/quote]
It's the belief that the current power structure aids you in some form. It's usually applied to the proletariat who support capitalism, but it can also refer to other classes, and is always tied to some form of internalized oppression.
For instance, many women support "Men's Rights" groups or anti-feminist organizations because they possess false consciousness. They don't recognize that feminism will actually uplift their power within society, mostly because they possess internalized misogyny. In America, this often happens within the Republican party. Small-town Republicans support the party, without realizing that many GOP initiatives will actually promote big business and stifle small-town economies.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39531047]how
[editline]9th February 2013[/editline]
science is corrupted when people do the following:
1. don't understand how it works
2. manipulate it for political purposes
communism corrupts science simply because they both disagree with each other[/QUOTE]
So you're saying that scientists moving to corporations and business isn't corrupting things that have less profit such as biology etc?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39531056]even if it was in their best interest, perception is not always the same as the reality.[/quote]
this is why communism and other radical politics doesn't work
[quote]it's like asking why there are still creationists if evolution has been shown to be true, or why some people still vote for and support neo-nazi groups. not everyone perceives everything in the same way.[/QUOTE]
its also like asking why marxists are still around when popper called bullshit
[editline]9th February 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Reimu;39531071]It's the belief that the current power structure aids you in some form. It's usually applied to the proletariat who support capitalism, but it can also refer to other classes, and is always tied to some form of internalized oppression.
For instance, many women support "Men's Rights" groups or anti-feminist organizations because they possess false consciousness. They don't recognize that feminism will actually uplift their power within society, mostly because they possess internalized misogyny. To an extent, that also happens with race.[/QUOTE]
so it's the marxist version of the christian idea that "people only reject christianity because they want to sin"
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39531047]how
[/QUOTE]
because it is competitive to try and keep costs down through the streamlining and salary cutting of labor at the expense of workers. it also ends up keeping a very large gap between the richest in society, and the poorest in society.
[QUOTE=laserguided;39531074]So you're saying that scientists moving to corporations and business isn't corrupting things that have less profit such as biology etc?[/QUOTE]
it doesn't matter where you do science, as long as you don't fuck up the methodology
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39531075]this is why communism and other radical politics doesn't work[/quote]
radical politics certainly work. i'm sort of disappointed you don't know that considering how much a history buff you are.
[quote]its also like asking why marxists are still around when popper called bullshit[/quote]
ok?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39531093]because it is competitive to try and keep costs down through the streamlining and salary cutting of labor at the expense of workers. it also ends up keeping a very large gap between the richest in society, and the poorest in society.[/QUOTE]
but real wages have been increasing
[editline]9th February 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39531106]radical politics certainly work. i'm sort of disappointed you don't know that considering how much a history buff you are.[/quote]
studying history only made me realize the opposite
"oh, we just need to get rid of the ruling class, then society is free"
the french and russians tried this and didn't exactly create utopias
[quote]ok?[/QUOTE]
he got proven wrong
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39531097]it doesn't matter where you do science, as long as you don't fuck up the methodology[/QUOTE]
That isn't relevant to anything I said. Despite what you may think, it is a real issue. People are working for profit rather then for what they would otherwise wan't to do. Some of the less profitable or unprofitable sciences die down in capitalism.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39531114]but real wages have been increasing[/QUOTE]
[img]http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/2011/02/22/news/economy/income_inequality/chart_income_inequality.top.gif[/img]
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/2008_Top1percentUSA.png/300px-2008_Top1percentUSA.png[/img]
not really
It's not so much "want" as ignorance. They're ignorant of their class relations.
Regardless, false consciousness is pretty scientifically sound. We see it within society all the time, and it stems back to cultural hegemony. That's why feminism is often treated with disdain within society, and why Marxism often connects very well with feminism.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39531114]
he got proven wrong[/QUOTE]
ok? and?
[editline]9th February 2013[/editline]
i don't care about marx.
I wonder whether a system which rewards people based on a roughly utilitarian method (regarding how much their work benefits society) would be plausible in anyway
[QUOTE=laserguided;39531139]That isn't relevant to anything I said. Despite what you may think, it is a real issue. People are working for profit rather then for what they would otherwise wan't to do. Some of the less profitable or unprofitable sciences die down in capitalism.[/QUOTE]
like biology, which did really well under the soviets
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39531177]like biology, which did really well under the soviets[/QUOTE]
It did better in the USSR than it did in the Russian Federation.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39531152][img]http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/2011/02/22/news/economy/income_inequality/chart_income_inequality.top.gif[/img]
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/2008_Top1percentUSA.png/300px-2008_Top1percentUSA.png[/img]
not really[/QUOTE]
[img]http://www.vdare.com/images/091607_povertyrates.jpg[/img]
[editline]9th February 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=laserguided;39531185]It did better in the USSR than it did in the Russian Federation.[/QUOTE]
no it didnt
it actively suppressed science
[editline]9th February 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Reimu;39531165]It's not so much "want" as ignorance. They're ignorant of their class relations.
[b]Regardless, false consciousness is pretty scientifically sound.[/b] We see it within society all the time, and it stems back to cultural hegemony. That's why feminism is often treated with disdain within society, and why Marxism often connects very well with feminism.[/QUOTE]
i want source on the bold
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39531198][IMG]http://www.vdare.com/images/091607_povertyrates.jpg[/IMG]
[editline]9th February 2013[/editline]
no it didnt
it actively suppressed science[/QUOTE]
you know why poverty rates declined right? they lowered the poverty threshold in relation to the amount of money in the economy, and ignored cultural expectations(for example it's expected to have a cell phone or computer these days).
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39531166]ok? and?
[editline]9th February 2013[/editline]
i don't care about marx.[/QUOTE]
bakunin then, mr anarchist
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