• Most Americans support Arizona Immigration Bill, further offshore drilling
    309 replies, posted
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;21935537]You are really not very good at debate.[/QUOTE] I'm only returning to a previous point I made.
[QUOTE=the_KMM;21935547]I'm only returning to a previous point I made.[/QUOTE] You just took one argument and upon losing tried to turn it into something else entirely.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;21935456]What are you talking about? I'm not arguing that they work any worse and get paid the same, I'm saying a burger flipper or ditch digger is a burger flipper or ditch digger. No firm is going to say, "This man's ditch digging résumé does not nearly qualify him for our work!" The factor on which unskilled laborers, which most illegal immigrants are, compete is the price of their labor.[/QUOTE] Now, see, we've got a problem up here with people coming here from Asia, and competing with current construction and renovation firms with half assed work for a much cheaper price. Skilled Labor is the issue. You have an unskilled laborer who takes up the job of a skilled laborer, and does a crappy job for much less money. The savings most clients make are worth the drop in quality (especially since most of the problems are hid behind the walls), so normal businesses lose business to them. As much as the ethical implications bother me, it's best if the Union guys keep strong arming immigrant workers the way they do now. Sure, everybody *could* work for much less money, but as it is now you have a lot of ticketed carpenters, electricians and plumbers that worked to get to were they are, and then you've got a lot of businesses made up mostly of immigrants hiring more immigrants, and none of them have any formal training. They wind up using inferior materials, doing inferior work for clients; when an educated carpenter, electrician, or plumber could be doing the work for a fair wage. I don't really want to get into a long, boring argument about economics. But if I spent 3 years becoming a journeyman carpenter, and I lost my job to some unskilled laborer from India who hacks a bunch of shitty work under the drywall and calls it "legit business" I'd be pretty fucking pissed off. As I said, the unions seem to deal with stuff like this. There's unspoken industry standards in place, and if a bunch of people from another country come along and break those standards with sleazy work, I wouldn't blame the Unions is they gave them some pretty heavy retaliation. That being said, this problem is different that Burger flipping or Ditch Digging; usually there's not many issues with jobs like that. As far as those jobs are, it's 'first come, first serve" but, as in the case I was talking about earlier, if you actually have sleazy firms treading on the territory of legit companies, then there's a problem to be had.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;21935680]Now, see, we've got a problem up here with people coming here from Asia, and competing with current construction and renovation firms with half assed work for a much cheaper price. Skilled Labor is the issue. You have an unskilled laborer who takes up the job of a skilled laborer, and does a crappy job for much less money. The savings most clients make are worth the drop in quality (especially since most of the problems are hid behind the walls), so normal businesses lose business to them. As much as the ethical implications bother me, it's best if the Union guys keep strong arming immigrant workers the way they do now. Sure, everybody *could* work for much less money, but as it is now you have a lot of ticketed carpenters, electricians and plumbers that worked to get to were they are, and then you've got a lot of businesses made up mostly of immigrants hiring more immigrants, and none of them have any formal training. They wind up using inferior materials, doing inferior work for clients; when an educated carpenter, electrician, or plumber could be doing the work for a fair wage. I don't really want to get into a long, boring argument about economics. But if I spent 3 years becoming a journeyman carpenter, and I lost my job to some unskilled laborer from India who hacks a bunch of shitty work under the drywall and calls it "legit business" I'd be pretty fucking pissed off. As I said, the unions seem to deal with stuff like this. There's unspoken industry standards in place, and if a bunch of people from another country come along and break those standards with sleazy work, I wouldn't blame the Unions is they gave them some pretty heavy retaliation. That being said, this problem is different that Burger flipping or Ditch Digging; usually there's not many issues with jobs like that. As far as those jobs are, it's 'first come, first serve" but, as in the case I was talking about earlier, if you actually have sleazy firms treading on the territory of legit companies, then there's a problem to be had.[/QUOTE] If a firm is content with the job an unskilled worker does they shouldn't be forced to hire a skilled worker for more. But if the shitty work isn't up the standards people want, they won't buy it, and the firm won't make a profit off purchasing the substandard labor. Insofar as sleazy firms go, don't penalize the worker for the firm's issue. Also, economics is what this is all about and I for one happen to find economics interesting.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;21935680]Now, see, we've got a problem up here with people coming here from Asia, and competing with current construction and renovation firms with half assed work for a much cheaper price. Skilled Labor is the issue. You have an unskilled laborer who takes up the job of a skilled laborer, and does a crappy job for much less money. The savings most clients make are worth the drop in quality (especially since most of the problems are hid behind the walls), so normal businesses lose business to them. As much as the ethical implications bother me, it's best if the Union guys keep strong arming immigrant workers the way they do now. Sure, everybody *could* work for much less money, but as it is now you have a lot of ticketed carpenters, electricians and plumbers that worked to get to were they are, and then you've got a lot of businesses made up mostly of immigrants hiring more immigrants, and none of them have any formal training. They wind up using inferior materials, doing inferior work for clients; when an educated carpenter, electrician, or plumber could be doing the work for a fair wage. I don't really want to get into a long, boring argument about economics. But if I spent 3 years becoming a journeyman carpenter, and I lost my job to some unskilled laborer from India who hacks a bunch of shitty work under the drywall and calls it "legit business" I'd be pretty fucking pissed off. As I said, the unions seem to deal with stuff like this. There's unspoken industry standards in place, and if a bunch of people from another country come along and break those standards with sleazy work, I wouldn't blame the Unions is they gave them some pretty heavy retaliation. That being said, this problem is different that Burger flipping or Ditch Digging; usually there's not many issues with jobs like that. As far as those jobs are, it's 'first come, first serve" but, as in the case I was talking about earlier, if you actually have sleazy firms treading on the territory of legit companies, then there's a problem to be had.[/QUOTE] Very good point. I see a lot of this bad construction here in central Florida on these overpriced "vacation homes". In fact there is a place I lived in called Bimini Bay that hired illegals (Mexicans, Cubans and Haitians) to construct the majority of the town homes. Which by the way they tried selling for 300k each and were poorly constructed using rotten lumber, nobody knew what a level was either. Within 2 years the places began falling apart. Our shower basin fell part way through the floor into the 1 bedroom part below. Drain pipes were placed right above the lights in the kitchen which shorted out luckily not causing a fire, but caused many hours of work to replace them and fix the pipes(contractor decided not to glue pipes together because he did not get paid by the owner of the development or something). But yeah that was fun. The townhouses were also not built to hurricane standards and were zoned as a resort as a dodge. The floor in our living room was sprouting grass. Lifting the carpet revealed a gap between the foundation and the wall that was just dirt. They also employ illegals to cut their grass and do their networking. It isn't just the crappy jobs they take, it's good skilled labor jobs as well. I prefer to sum it up as the "Walmart mentality". There's always that side the media doesn't show. We don't have to take everyone in. If people want to come here they can do it legally. [editline]12:47AM[/editline] [QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;21935835]If a firm is content with the job an unskilled worker does they shouldn't be forced to hire a skilled worker for more. But if the shitty work isn't up the standards people want, they won't buy it, and the firm won't make a profit off purchasing the substandard labor. Insofar as sleazy firms go, don't penalize the worker for the firm's issue. Also, economics is what this is all about and I for one happen to find economics interesting.[/QUOTE] Substandard construction isn't always visible. It can take a year or two for it to show. Or most of the time you don't see it, like when you buy a used car.
[QUOTE=Sgt.Sgt;21935854]It isn't just the crappy jobs they take, it's good skilled labor jobs as well.[/QUOTE] I highly doubt they're taking many skilled labor jobs. Semi-skilled at most, generally. [editline]12:54AM[/editline] It's not like you see many doctors complaining about immigrants who stole their jobs
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;21935835]If a firm is content with the job an unskilled worker does they shouldn't be forced to hire a skilled worker for more. But if the shitty work isn't up the standards people want, they won't buy it, and the firm won't make a profit off purchasing the substandard labor. Insofar as sleazy firms go, don't penalize the worker for the firm's issue. Also, economics is what this is all about and I for one happen to find economics interesting.[/QUOTE] Economics are a tiresome and impersonal. My experience with economists is they they don't tend to understand the details of an issue, and therefore cannot make proper estimations. IE: [quote]But if the shitty work isn't up the standards people want, they won't buy it, and the firm won't make a profit off purchasing the substandard labor[/quote]The problem with housework, is that you can do a lousy job, but it's very easy to hide the fact that you did a lousy job. And once the pipe in the wall busts, or your roof starts leaking, the guys who did the work are already long gone. Your average client does not understand the work that goes into renovations or construction. That's why they are hiring somebody [I]else[/I] to do it for them, so even if the work that was done was crappy, the client might not be able to tell for at least a couple of years. So, somebody can walk into their newly unskilled-immigrant-renovated house, and at first sight every [B]looks[/B] fine, but it's not; because the people that did it did not have a proper understanding of the procedures, and instead did a hack job that looks fine on the surface.
Except the argument should apply to immigrant unskilled labor in general, not just construction and the like [editline]01:02AM[/editline] well, immigrant labor but we're talking about unskilled labor right now [editline]01:04AM[/editline] Also, nothing stops and American from doing the same thing, (and they do) so why should immigrants be singled out because they tend to be less educated and the like? It's not like American workers exemplify quality work and Mexican workers exemplify shoddy half-assedness. [editline]01:11AM[/editline] I am going to concede right now on the grounds that I am unusually tired for being only 1 am and I have probably been talking out my ass for the past 20 minutes however I will be happy to rejoin if the argument is still going tomorrow morning. I liked it better when I was arguing with the_KMM and it didn't require use of my brain
I support offshore drilling for two reasons 1) We depend on the shit 2) We have thousands of drill platforms out there in the gulf alone, one had an accident, So they'll analyze the problem and further actions will be put in place to avoid it happening again
[QUOTE=the_KMM;21935325]Oh, the irony. The fact that they entered this country ILLEGALLY makes them criminals. [editline]12:02AM[/editline] I did. I pointed out just how illegals steal jobs.[/QUOTE] First of all you dumbshit, no one can steal a job. No american wants to do those jobs, at least not at a reasonable price. Second of all, the state of Arizona's crime statistics actually said the inverse, and that the illegals were not making more crime.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;21936310]First of all you dumbshit, no one can steal a job. No american wants to do those jobs, at least not at a reasonable price. Second of all, the state of Arizona's crime statistics actually said the inverse, and that the illegals were not making more crime.[/QUOTE] In this economy people are doing jobs everywhere they don't want to do just to get by... We're talking big time 80k+ A year people taking jobs at McDonalds and shit... 10% are Unemployed right now.. American Citizens. The vast majority of 12 Million illegals are working Low wage and low skill jobs, Yes, but don't you think LEGAL CITIZENS should get first priority?
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;21935218]pretty much And there's no such thing as an illegal "stealing our jobs." They are willing to work for less, they are more likely to get hired. You can work for as little as they do. You don't want to so you don't, but they can tough it out, and so you complain. [editline]11:54PM[/editline] It's like saying that a firm in a market that is willing to lower its prices is stealing other firms' demand.[/QUOTE] That's incredibly ignorant. You actually cannot legally work for the wages that an illegal immigrant works for. There are human rights laws in place that prevent that. [QUOTE=thisispain;21935183]unless you are saying illegal immigrants were here first :confused:, then you'd know that illegal immigrants take jobs that no-one else wants to do[/QUOTE] Bullshit too. What jobs are really big for illegal immigrants? Farming, which is something many people do and want to do. Landscaping, which although a pretty shitty job, a lot of people want now that the economy is bad. There is also construction, which is a very popular job for both illegal immigrants and natural born citizens. [editline]05:53AM[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;21936310]First of all you dumbshit, no one can steal a job. No american wants to do those jobs, at least not at a reasonable price. Second of all, the state of Arizona's crime statistics actually said the inverse, and that the illegals were not making more crime.[/QUOTE] If an illegal immigrant comes in and works for slave wages then yes, he just stole a job.
[QUOTE=TheTalon;21936354]In this economy people are doing jobs everywhere they don't want to do just to get by... We're talking big time 80k+ A year people taking jobs at McDonalds and shit... 10% are Unemployed right now.. American Citizens. The vast majority of 12 Million illegals are working Low wage and low skill jobs, Yes, but don't you think LEGAL CITIZENS should get first priority?[/QUOTE] Unemployment right now is 5%. Not 10%. You know what the average unemployment has been for 60 years? 5%. [editline]10:57PM[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;21936421]That's incredibly ignorant. You actually cannot legally work for the wages that an illegal immigrant works for. There are human rights laws in place that prevent that. Bullshit too. What jobs are really big for illegal immigrants? Farming, which is something many people do and want to do. Landscaping, which although a pretty shitty job, a lot of people want now that the economy is bad. There is also construction, which is a very popular job for both illegal immigrants and natural born citizens. [editline]05:53AM[/editline] If an illegal immigrant comes in and works for slave wages then yes, he just stole a job.[/QUOTE] How is it stealing a job when that job wouldn't exist without them? No american is going to take that job, and no company will offer it to them. Fuck, the US economy NEEDS and RELIES on illegals. Don't even get me started, it does.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;21936447]Unemployment right now is 5%. Not 10%. You know what the average unemployment has been for 60 years? 5%.[/QUOTE] According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics it's at 10.2% as of March 2010. [URL]http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=usunemployment&met=unemployment_rate&tdim=true&dl=en&hl=en&q=US+unemployment+rate[/URL] Now unless we miraculously cut the unemployment rate in half in a few short months I believe the man is right. [editline]05:59AM[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;21936447] How is it stealing a job when that job wouldn't exist without them? No american is going to take that job, and no company will offer it to them. Fuck, the US economy NEEDS and RELIES on illegals. Don't even get me started, it does.[/QUOTE] The fucking southern economy relied on slavery. You are worse than the people who want to racially discriminate because they just want to send them back to their home country while you want to exploit them and treat them as sub human slaves. And then you make it out like they are bigots when you are just as big of a bigot.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;21936458]According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics it's at 10.2% as of March 2010. [URL]http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=usunemployment&met=unemployment_rate&tdim=true&dl=en&hl=en&q=US+unemployment+rate[/URL] Now unless we miraculously cut the unemployment rate in half in a few short months I believe the man is right. [editline]05:59AM[/editline] The fucking southern economy relied on slavery. You are worse than the people who want to racially discriminate because they just want to send them back to their home country while you want to exploit them and treat them as sub human slaves. And then you make it out like they are bigots when you are just as big of a bigot.[/QUOTE] Slavery? No. These people would be dying of starvation and would be unable to fully support their families. They come here, work for what we call scraps, and they're living millions of times better back home. That's not fucking slavery you shit. Sure, it sucks, but 1) You'll cause a total economy collapse pulling them out. 2) These people are finally having good opportunities to improve their lives. I don't want to treat them subhuman, treating them subhuman is saying "No, get out, suffer, go back home and eat dirt to live you shit". I'm all for their rights.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;21936515]Slavery? No. These people would be dying of starvation and would be unable to fully support their families. They come here, work for what we call scraps, and they're living millions of times better back home. That's not fucking slavery you shit. Sure, it sucks[/quote] Slaves in the south lived much better lives than their old ones in Africa. [quote], but 1) You'll cause a total economy collapse pulling them out.[/quote] Enslave people for money, ok. [quote]I'm all for their rights.[/QUOTE] Then you wouldn't support illegal immigration. You're not for their rights at all.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;21936752]Slaves in the south lived much better lives than their old ones in Africa. Enslave people for money, ok. Then you wouldn't support illegal immigration. You're not for their rights at all.[/QUOTE] Live in squalor, or work for a decent living.... Hmmm.... What do we do...
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;21936759]Live in squalor, or work for a decent living.... Hmmm.... What do we do...[/QUOTE] They aren't working for a decent living. They are living in squalor as it is.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;21936752]Then you wouldn't support illegal immigration. You're not for their rights at all.[/QUOTE] This doesn't make the least bit of sense. They come here voluntarily. Are you suggesting that by immigrating illegally they are purposely violating their own rights?
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;21936800]This doesn't make the least bit of sense. They come here voluntarily. Are you suggesting that by immigrating illegally they are purposely violating their own rights?[/QUOTE] They are going to choose the life that is slightly better. Just because they are willing to do something or are too ignorant to know otherwise, doesn't mean that we should exploit them. Shouldn't they get human rights too? Or are they not human enough for them?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;21936845]They are going to choose the life that is slightly better. Just because they are willing to do something or are too ignorant to know otherwise, doesn't mean that we should exploit them.[/QUOTE] So you're saying they should be denied a better option that they engage in willfully because somehow it's worse? Not to mention I take issue with the notion that it's exploitation to begin with. [QUOTE=yawmwen;21936845]Shouldn't they get human rights too? Or are they not human enough for them?[/QUOTE] Where did you get that fabulous strawman
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;21935978] I liked it better when I was arguing with the_KMM and it didn't require use of my brain[/QUOTE] Well, not much more point in arguing anyways. I don't really have a problem with immigrants/illegal immigrants. (beyond the specific cases were they intrude on skilled labor jobs) Judging by the_KMM's other arguments, I don't really share any views in common with him. I'd put my money on his problems with immigrants being based on bigotry, not any logical reasons in particular.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;21936845]They are going to choose the life that is slightly better. Just because they are willing to do something or are too ignorant to know otherwise, doesn't mean that we should exploit them. Shouldn't they get human rights too? Or are they not human enough for them?[/QUOTE] You're good at making up arguments that hold as much water as a thimble. You should work for Glaber. [QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;21936895] Where did you get that fabulous strawman[/QUOTE] It was on sale at Glaber/Ikea.
I support both of them. seriously.
[QUOTE=the_KMM;21925061] -I [I]really[/I] hate paying $2.85 for a gallon of gas. If we drill more of our own oil, that's less oil we buy from other countries.[/QUOTE] That's fuckin' cheap compared to most of the world.
[QUOTE=GunsNRoses;21937875]That's fuckin' cheap compared to most of the world.[/QUOTE] That's due to your tit high Fuel Taxes, In the United States it's USD $0.50/gal, where as in Germany it's $6.28/Gal, and in the United Kingdom it's $3.49/Gal. Meanwhile in Mother Russia the Petro Tax is only $0.12/Gal
[QUOTE=The golden;21940949]Haha, no wonder why the rest of the world hates the US. The dumb-boxes are over there to the right, I know all you ignorant Americans are going to click it.[/QUOTE] Atleast China loves us. :sigh:
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;21936895]So you're saying they should be denied a better option that they engage in willfully because somehow it's worse?[/QUOTE] They shouldn't be denied a better option, they should be treated like human workers. People should be allowed to enter the country and have the same rights as a natural born citizen. Just because they are unfortunate enough not to be able to get a green card in our current system shouldn't mean the best option for them should be as slaves. [quote]Not to mention I take issue with the notion that it's exploitation to begin with.[/quote]That's what happens. We take their willingness to work and ignorance of our laws and use them to do everything cheap for us. [quote]Where did you get that fabulous strawman[/quote]It's not a strawman. You say illegal immigrants should be allowed because they help the economy with their sub human wages. The only logical conclusion is that you don't think they should be paid regular wages like a normal citizen or worker would get paid.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;21945511]You say illegal immigrants should be allowed because they help the economy with their sub human wages.[/QUOTE] No I didn't. [editline]04:22PM[/editline] You're predicating this whole notion that I want immigrants to come into our country so we can pay them less than they deserve on an argument I haven't made.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;21945585]No I didn't. [editline]04:22PM[/editline] You're predicating this whole notion that I want immigrants to come into our country so we can pay them less than they deserve on an argument I haven't made.[/QUOTE] Apologies, Humanabyss said that.
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