[QUOTE=download;51576091]So their children should have no right to proper education and medical care in perpetuum? Because they apparently should remain ignorant of the outside world?[/QUOTE]
I did not claim they have no right. Re-read my post.
[QUOTE=Anti Christ;51576323]I did not claim they have no right. Re-read my post.[/QUOTE]
You apparently believe informing = forcing. What I said still stands.
[QUOTE=download;51575973]
Sorry, but no. They have a right to know about the wider world and the benefits it could bring them.[/QUOTE]
It's their decision
[QUOTE=RobL;51576341]It's their decision[/QUOTE]
Not really. The authorities have a duty to ensure they're living to the laws and standards of the country.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;51576355]Not really. The authorities have a duty to ensure they're living to the laws and standards of the country.[/QUOTE]
I mean what relationship they have with the wider world is their decision.
[QUOTE=download;51575973]So we should leave them in squalor[/QUOTE]
Define "squalor", please. Besides, what would you know about how they live?
[QUOTE]where their children will die of easily curable ailments[/QUOTE]
Citation needed.
[QUOTE] where they will never have access to a proper education and the ability to know about the wider world[/QUOTE]
How do you know what these people do or do not know? Where did you find out what their education is like?
[QUOTE=download;51575973]So we should leave them in squalor, where their children will die of easily curable ailments, where they will never have access to a proper education and the ability to know about the wider world?
Sorry, but no. They have a right to know about the wider world and the benefits it could bring them.[/QUOTE]
Sure they have a right
but they also have a right to not be forced to do something they don't want to
we shouldn't lose a culture like this just for our own arrogance.
[QUOTE=daschnek;51576370]Define "squalor", please. Besides, what would you know about how they live?
Citation needed.
How do you know what these people do or do not know? Where did you find out what their education is like?[/QUOTE]
They live in a stone age culture. In a stone aged culture many children die before they reach adulthood, they do live in squalor and they certainly don't have an education system. To say otherwise is to live in a delusion. It's indisputable.
[QUOTE=download;51576448]They live in a stone age culture. In a stone aged culture many children die before they reach adulthood, they do live in squalor and they certainly don't have an education system. To say otherwise is to live in a delusion. It's indisputable.[/QUOTE]
they don't want to be contacted
you're forcing them to be contacted
how hard is it to understand this
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;51576451]they don't want to be contacted[/quote]
Citation needed.
[quote]you're forcing them to be contacted
how hard is it to understand this[/QUOTE]
Some village elder does not trump the rights of children to grow up with an education and the best healthcare available.
[QUOTE=download;51576456]Citation needed.[/QUOTE]
idk man the arrows and spears coming our way seem to be a pretty good citation
So, how do we intend to contact them, exactly? Just invade their homes and talk to them about cars, computers, and Donald Trump? Doubt they'd be too interested.
[QUOTE=Vegetable;51576472]So, how do we intend to contact them, exactly? Just invade their homes and talk to them about cars, computers, and Donald Trump? Doubt they'd be too interested.[/QUOTE]
historically we've just dropped them gifts (toys, tools, etc.) but nothing beyond that because none of them will stop firing arrows at everyone that goes near them
[QUOTE=download;51576456]Citation needed.
Some village elder does not trump the rights of children to grow up with an education and the best healthcare available.[/QUOTE]
If they want to be left alone that's their business, who are we to tell them how they should live?
yo guys I'm totally behind the idea of preserving a culture if they want to stick to primitive ways and don't want to be contacted
but if they've gone this long without contacting anyone there's probably some taboo in their culture about the outside world, and that taboo justifying children born and dying in stone-aged conditions is a big no-no. by virtue of children being born in a world where they can possibly know no better, we owe it to those very children to at least give them a chance to see the wider world.
everyone assuming contacting them means invading them and converting them to our ways is being unnecessarily overdramatic. we intervene in almost every other developing culture that needs our help in the world, so why would this one be an exception? is it because they're particularly unique in how primitive they live?
It's a pretty interesting line, regarding the idea of self-determination. Especially because forcing them to interact with us would most likely require violence, since they defend themselves violently. Hell, the sentinel island people literally killed 2 fishermen who were fishing illegally and drifted onto their island while drunk.
And likewise it's not that our modern world is perfect happiness-wise especially, and there's more to a fulfilling life than just education and not dying to certain diseases as easily. It's the cave I suppose
[QUOTE=WillerinV1.02;51576518]yo guys I'm totally behind the idea of preserving a culture if they want to stick to primitive ways and don't want to be contacted
but if they've gone this long without contacting anyone there's probably some taboo in their culture about the outside world, and that taboo justifying children born and dying in stone-aged conditions is a big no-no. by virtue of children being born in a world where they can possibly know no better, we owe it to those very children to at least give them a chance to see the wider world.
everyone assuming contacting them means invading them and converting them to our ways is being unnecessarily overdramatic. we intervene in almost every other developing culture that needs our help in the world, so why would this one be an exception?[/QUOTE]
I mean, if you want to go down there and tell them they need to upgrade parts of their culture whilst dodging a barrage of arrows, feel free to. On a similar note, I'm not going to go to the guys who stick their hands in bullet-ant gloves and protest that it's potentially dangerous because it's obvious that's how they choose to live their lives.
When they want to accept outside of communication, they will.
[QUOTE=Water-Marine;51576541]I mean, if you want to go down there and tell them they need to upgrade parts of their culture whilst dodging a barrage of arrows, feel free to. On a similar note, I'm not going to go to the guys who stick their hands in bullet-ant gloves and protest that it's potentially dangerous because it's obvious that's how they choose to live their lives.
When they want to accept outside of communication, they will.[/QUOTE]
The kids don't have a choice though. It's all fair to say that a culture of stone-aged dwelling adults don't want to be contacted and therefore shouldn't, but I believe every child in the world should be given as fair as a chance as they can get. Obviously, this doesn't apply for an overwhelming amount of people, but for those people, efforts are being made. I just want to see the same efforts made here.
Saying they'll accept communication when they want to is a bit pointless, since I'm sure it will take their culture and customs imploding before they do that.
[QUOTE=WillerinV1.02;51576565]The kids don't have a choice though. It's all fair to say that a culture of stone-aged dwelling adults don't want to be contacted and therefore shouldn't, but I believe every child in the world should be given as fair as a chance as they can get. Obviously, this doesn't apply for an overwhelming amount of people, but for those people, efforts are being made. I just want to see the same efforts made here.
Saying they'll accept communication when they want to is a bit pointless, since I'm sure it will take their culture and customs imploding before they do that.[/QUOTE]
you are right that the children have no choice, but what does "fair" mean to you? a fair chance could mean any number of things depending on whatever culture you were brought up in. you had no choice in being brought up in a westernized society, so you had no fair chance to be the great warrior or tracker you may be naturally adept at but never had a chance to find out.
these people have a lifestyle which humans had for the vast majority of our species's existence, they are the last vestiges of humanity actually being a part of nature rather than holding ourselves above it. to come in and try to change that against there will, even if we believe it to be "for their own good", is tantamount to cultural genocide. if and when they choose to integrate into the greater world, we should accept them with open arms and help them, but until then we should leave them be.
[QUOTE=download;51576448]They live in a stone age culture. In a stone aged culture many children die before they reach adulthood, they do live in squalor and they certainly don't have an education system. To say otherwise is to live in a delusion. It's indisputable.[/QUOTE]
You haven't contacted these people, and neither has anyone else. You have no right to make any statements about their culture.
Child mortality rates from the stone age are not known, there's no need for you to pretend like you were there.
[QUOTE=download;51576448]They live in a stone age culture. In a stone aged culture many children die before they reach adulthood, they do live in squalor and they certainly don't have an education system. To say otherwise is to live in a delusion. It's indisputable.[/QUOTE]
Does "ethnocentrism" ring any bells to you?
I would love to explore these civilizations a lot more, and see how they live, but I feel like terrorizing them with helicopters and doing drive by photo shoots is probably not the way to go :v:
[QUOTE=download;51576448]They live in a stone age culture. In a stone aged culture many children die before they reach adulthood, they do live in squalor and they certainly don't have an education system. To say otherwise is to live in a delusion. It's indisputable.[/QUOTE]
And more children would die if we were to contact them. These people do not have the same resistances to diseases we do. Many would certainly be infected and die as a result of contact. There's more to this than just "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!"
I'm sorry, I don't understand
What's wrong with at least establishing communication? Has modern civilization never attempted contact with isolated tribes before?
[QUOTE=Firestarfk;51577064]And more children would die if we were to contact them. These people do not have the same resistances to diseases we do. Many would certainly be infected and die as a result of contact. There's more to this than just "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!"[/QUOTE]
Lucky for modern medicine.... for goodness sake...
And while they're isolated socially, they're not completely isolated, as they raid settlements (i.e. they have some amount of contact with civilisation).
They're not going to instantly die.
[QUOTE=MasterKade;51577074]I'm sorry, I don't understand
What's wrong with at least establishing communication? Has modern civilization never attempted contact with isolated tribes before?[/QUOTE]
because the last time we tried to establish communication, we killed a bunch of people in the sake of colonization and gave them diseases and essentially killed a pre-existing community, by imposing our moral standards we believed then. whose to say what we empose on them now would not be destructive? we do not know our own power.
it's not worth the risks, we shouldn't be playing world police to how people live in their bubble. they have to make the first contact. go watch an episode of star trek or something.
Probaly the next location for that god awful green inferno, I think.
[QUOTE=download;51576448]To say otherwise is to live in a delusion. It's indisputable.[/QUOTE]
This isn't how you make a good argument
[QUOTE=WillerinV1.02;51576565]The kids don't have a choice though. It's all fair to say that a culture of stone-aged dwelling adults don't want to be contacted and therefore shouldn't, but I believe every child in the world should be given as fair as a chance as they can get. Obviously, this doesn't apply for an overwhelming amount of people, but for those people, efforts are being made. I just want to see the same efforts made here.
Saying they'll accept communication when they want to is a bit pointless, since I'm sure it will take their culture and customs imploding before they do that.[/QUOTE]
I know I'm pulling the "children are dying in africa" argument but come on, if you want to worry about children dying you have the whole rest of the world to help before we drag one tiny tribe who is getting along just fine into our mess.
[QUOTE=Gamerman12;51577089]because the last time we tried to establish communication, we killed a bunch of people in the sake of colonization and gave them diseases and essentially killed a pre-existing community, by imposing our moral standards we believed then. whose to say what we empose on them now would not be destructive? we do not know our own power.
it's not worth the risks, we shouldn't be playing world police to how people live in their bubble. they have to make the first contact. go watch an episode of star trek or something.[/QUOTE]
Part of me wonders if these tribes [I]have[/I] had contact with outsiders in the past and it ended up not going well for them, so it became ingrained in their culture that mingling with outsiders brings nothing good with it.
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