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Never got why people think affirmative action is not racist, enlighten me please?

I hate discrimination. First they start by building wheelchair ramps, and before you know it retards are gonna have well funded schools to make up for their "learning disabilities". It just pisses me off when people get treated differently. We're all the same! Why can't handicaps just use stairs?

[QUOTE=evilweazel;23116599]Never got why people think affirmative action is not racist, enlighten me please?[/QUOTE] [url]http://books.google.com/books?id=xay3h0tWzzAC&lpg=PP1&ots=n1M3TUZtr1&dq=bonilla%20silva&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false[/url]

[QUOTE=BobbyDigital;23116617]I hate discrimination. First they start by building wheelchair ramps, and before you know it retards are gonna have well funded schools to make up for their "learning disabilities". It just pisses me off when people get treated differently. We're all the same! Why can't handicaps just use stairs?[/QUOTE] There's a difference between making buildings handicap accessible and having racial quotas in universities and workplaces. [editline]10:02PM[/editline] I remember back when I was applying for scholarships there were about $5000 worth of awards for anyone, yet nearly twice as many for aboriginals ONLY. How is that not racism, TH89?

[QUOTE=TH89;23116648][url]http://books.google.com/books?id=xay3h0tWzzAC&lpg=PP1&ots=n1M3TUZtr1&dq=bonilla%20silva&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false[/url][/QUOTE] Care to sum it up for me?

[QUOTE=evilweazel;23116707]Care to sum it up for me?[/QUOTE] "Every person is racist even if they don't think they are"

[QUOTE=Zeke129;23116714]"Every person is racist even if they aren't"[/QUOTE] Pretty much, I read through chapter 1 and I wanted to puke....it was like reading a conservative piece...

[QUOTE=Zeke129;23116655]There's a difference between making buildings handicap accessible and having racial quotas in universities and workplaces.[/QUOTE] I've got a hypothetical for you. You are the dean of admissions to Harvard. You have one spot open, and two kids tied with grades/extra curricular activities and things of that nature. They were both charming in an interview and are both bright kids. How do you decide who gets the spot?

[QUOTE=Zeke129;23116714]"Every person is racist even if they don't think they are"[/QUOTE] I love that song.

[QUOTE=BobbyDigital;23116731]I've got a hypothetical for you. You are the dean of admissions to Harvard. You have one spot open, and two kids tied with grades/extra curricular activities and things of that nature. They were both charming in an interview and are both bright kids. How do you decide who gets the spot?[/QUOTE] Inni Meanie Minie Moe?

[QUOTE=BobbyDigital;23116731]I've got a hypothetical for you. You are the dean of admissions to Harvard. You have one spot open, and two kids tied with grades/extra curricular activities and things of that nature. They were both charming in an interview and are both bright kids. How do you decide who gets the spot?[/QUOTE] I flip a coin.

[QUOTE=Swilly;23116729]Pretty much, I read through chapter 1 and I wanted to puke....it was like reading a conservative piece...[/QUOTE] I think you may have missed the point of the book

[QUOTE=evilweazel;23116707]Care to sum it up for me?[/QUOTE] I think the gist of it is "though people are equal, some groups are quite disadvantaged, and do need a help up if they want to be truly equal"

[QUOTE=BobbyDigital;23116731]I've got a hypothetical for you. You are the dean of admissions to Harvard. You have one spot open, and two kids tied with grades/extra curricular activities and things of that nature. They were both charming in an interview and are both bright kids. How do you decide who gets the spot?[/QUOTE] TH89 thinks I'd hire the white one because I am conditioned with generations of subconscious racism, but in reality I'd just look for any slight thing that stood out in their applications. Barring that, I'd admit whoever got there first. [editline]10:09PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Triumph Forks;23116766]I think the gist of it is "though people are equal, some groups are quite disadvantaged, and do need a help up if they want to be truly equal"[/QUOTE] I got from what I read is that the author believes people are subconsciously racist and that it's causing these disadvantages between races.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;23116655]There's a difference between making buildings handicap accessible and having racial quotas in universities and workplaces. [editline]10:02PM[/editline] I remember back when I was applying for scholarships there were about $5000 worth of awards for anyone, yet nearly twice as many for aboriginals ONLY. How is that not racism, TH89?[/QUOTE]Aboriginals don't have as much academic success because, through centuries of abuse, they are now fairly impoverished as people, and if they want any chance to get out of that cycle, then we need to provide a catalyst for them to truly realise their potential, and not be stuck in the poverty trap.

So wait is this fair? I can't tell

[QUOTE=Zeke129;23116778]TH89 thinks I'd hire the white one because I am conditioned with generations of subconscious racism, but in reality I'd just look for any slight thing that stood out in their applications. Barring that, I'd admit whoever got there first. [editline]10:09PM[/editline] I got from what I read is that the author believes people are subconsciously racist and that it's causing these disadvantages between races.[/QUOTE] Oh what the hell, did not expect that

[QUOTE=Zeke129;23116778]TH89 thinks I'd hire the white one because I am conditioned with generations of subconscious racism, but in reality I'd just look for any slight thing that stood out in their applications. Barring that, I'd admit whoever got there first.[/QUOTE] Assuming their applications are flawless, do you base your decision on the student's ethnicity due to Quotas and Affirmative Action(if one is white and the other a minority) OR do you base your decision on an arbitrary fact, such as the efficiency of public transportation or the mailman who delivered the application?

[QUOTE=Triumph Forks;23116815]Aboriginals don't have as much academic success because, through centuries of abuse, they are now fairly impoverished as people, and if they want any chance to get out of that cycle, then we need to provide a catalyst for them to truly realise their potential, and not be stuck in the poverty trap.[/QUOTE] Any of the aboriginals who saw that form were obviously attending the same school as I was and, as such, had the same opportunities I did. They don't have to pay GST either, so you could say they had more opportunity than I did. Financially, anyways. [QUOTE=BobbyDigital;23116834]Assuming their applications are flawless, do you base your decision on the student's ethnicity (if one is white and the other a minority) OR do you base your decision on an arbitrary fact, such as the efficiency of public transportation or the mailman who delivered the application?[/QUOTE] Are you seriously trying to make me out to be the bad guy for NOT picking the racially-charged option?

[QUOTE=BobbyDigital;23116834]Assuming their applications are flawless, do you base your decision on the student's ethnicity due to Quotas and Affirmative Action(if one is white and the other a minority) OR do you base your decision on an arbitrary fact, such as the efficiency of public transportation or the mailman who delivered the application?[/QUOTE] I'd probably do it on quotas just to cover my ass, otherwise I'd choose at random.

[QUOTE=Mingebox;23116895]I'd probably do it on quotas just to cover my ass, otherwise I'd choose at random.[/QUOTE] But this goes back to what we were just talking about. You supposedly can't choose at random because you're actually racist and don't notice it.

[QUOTE=Triumph Forks;23116815]Aboriginals don't have as much academic success because, through centuries of abuse, they are now fairly impoverished as people, and if they want any chance to get out of that cycle, then we need to provide a catalyst for them to truly realise their potential, and not be stuck in the poverty trap.[/QUOTE] So why not make scholarships for the poor?

[QUOTE=Mingebox;23116928]So why not make scholarships for the poor?[/QUOTE] Because many people think that poor minorities need more help getting on their feet than poor white people. Which is kind of racist in and of itself. It implies that those minorities aren't as good as everyone else. The fact that anyone can be poor shows serious flaws in the way a society is run but it isn't always something racial.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;23116883]Any of the aboriginals who saw that form were obviously attending the same school as I was and, as such, had the same opportunities I did. They don't have to pay GST either, so you could say they had more opportunity than I did. Financially, anyways. Are you seriously trying to make me out to be the bad guy for NOT picking the racially-charged option?[/QUOTE] Was this public school or post secondary? If it's public, they can still be from a poor family, which is more likely for First Nations people. [editline]12:24AM[/editline] though I'm just going through the reasoning behind it. I admit I don't know enough to really say anything with conviction. just some guesswork on motives and such

[QUOTE=Zeke129;23116778]I got from what I read is that the author believes people are subconsciously racist and that it's causing these disadvantages between races.[/QUOTE] That's not what he's saying at all. There is widespread systemic racism perpetrated not by the government, but by a large number of people holding various positions of power. Some of this is intentional, some not, but the cumulative effect is to create disastrous systemic discrimination against some minority groups. Conservatives have long claimed that "color-blindness" is the solution to racism, but in reality its chief function is to allow them to avoid dealing with the continuing systemic racism that exists to this day (if you don't know what "systemic" means you should look it up). This mindset is what Stephen Colbert is mocking when he claims he doesn't see race. It's as laughable as claiming that "class-blindness" is justification for ignoring the existence of poverty or that being "gender-blind" means it's okay to pretend sexism is no longer a problem. Worse still, the "color-blind" philosophy [i]claims that any systemic attempt to correct for systemic inequality is "racist"[/i]. It's not about you individually being racist. It's about you individually avoiding responsibility for societal problems by convincing yourself that [i]ignoring them[/i] will fix them, and that [i]trying to fix them[/i] will make them worse. That's reactionary doublethink at its best.

I'm tired of discussing this, Zeke, so I will get to my point. I am positive you will chose to not go with filling a Quota, and NOT base your decision on the student's race. Here is why that is the wrong decision: There is a reason minorities go by their name. They are politically under represented and statistically speaking are presented with more disadvantages in their daily life (such as hailing from low income families). Now before you say "That's discrimination. Why do we assume the minority is the disadvantaged one and NOT the white student?" here is why that is not immoral The whole process people go through to apply to colleges is arbitrary. The grades the students received (which I'm sure you had no problem with) are just figures they received on achievement tests. Many things factor into those that make them fallible. People cheat, have panic attacks, blank, even though ordinairly they may be dilligent students. However, at the end of the exam we need standards. The exam grade stands and that is what the decision is based upon. Averages and the precentiles the students fall into decide admission. Going back to the hypothetical. Both students may be from a similar economic and social situation. However, STATISTICALLY speaking the minority comes from harsher conditions and therefore should get the preferential treatment because, once again statistically speaking, the system fucked them over at some point this is making up for it. Placing him or her on the same slate as the white student. While it is arbitrary it makes everything balance out. This system is no less flawed than the grading system in schools today, and because of this Affirmative Action and Quotas are not immoral. They are a way to place everyone on the same standard. The reason you hear bad things about it is over privileged assholes in Congress have trouble with understanding that there are minorities who had to fight harder than some of them to get to the same levels as aforementioned assholes.

[QUOTE=Triumph Forks;23117045]Was this public school or post secondary? If it's public, they can still be from a poor family, which is more likely for First Nations people.[/QUOTE] Public school. But as I said, assuming that minorities need help just because they're not white is counter-productive.

[QUOTE=Mingebox;23116928]So why not make scholarships for the poor?[/QUOTE] I think people from poorer backgrounds should have more of a chance at scholarships than more affluent students. Though I would assume there'd be more poor than rich applying for scholarships, but I could be way off track with that [editline]12:27AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Zeke129;23117072]Public school. But as I said, assuming that minorities need help just because they're not white is counter-productive. currently replying to both previous posts hold up[/QUOTE] if people from those groups are statistically poorer, then it's not purely because they're not white

[QUOTE=BobbyDigital;23117064]I'm tired of discussing this, Zeke, so I will get to my point. I am positive you will chose to not go with filling a Quota, and NOT base your decision on the student's race. Here is why that is the wrong decision: There is a reason minorities go by their name. They are politically under represented and statistically speaking are presented with more disadvantages in their daily life (such as hailing from low income families). Now before you say "That's discrimination. Why do we assume the minority is the disadvantaged one and NOT the white student?" here is why that is not immoral The whole process people go through to apply to colleges is arbitrary. The grades the students received (which I'm sure you had no problem with) are just figures they received on achievement tests. Many things factor into those that make them fallible. People cheat, have panic attacks, blank, even though ordinairly they may be dilligent students. However, at the end of the exam we need standards. The exam grade stands and that is what the decision is based upon. Averages and the precentiles the students fall into decide admission. Going back to the hypothetical. Both students may be from a similar economic and social situation. However, STATISTICALLY speaking the minority comes from harsher conditions and therefore should get the preferential treatment because, once again statistically speaking, the system fucked them over at some point this is making up for it. Placing him or her on the same slate as the white student. [/QUOTE] But college applications are usually handled individually and thoroughly, which makes statistics pointless since you can look at each students background. No need to make a decisions based on who mist likely had a harder time, since you can tell for sure who did.

[QUOTE=Mingebox;23117153]But college applications are usually handled individually and thoroughly, which makes statistics pointless since you can look at each students background. No need to make a decisions based on who mist likely had a harder time, since you can tell for sure who did.[/QUOTE] A large portion of applications get electronically thrown out if they don't meet grade standards. All schools do this. Only the top applications get individually handled at which point essays and extra curricular become the judgement calls.