Google expands benefits for employees in same-sex relationships to cover "gay tax" - Polidicks

[QUOTE=TH89;23117061] There is widespread systemic racism perpetrated not by the government, but by a large number of people holding various positions of power. Some of this is intentional, some not, but the cumulative effect is to create disastrous systemic discrimination against some minority groups.[/quote] And I do not disagree. [QUOTE=TH89;23117061]Conservatives have long claimed that "color-blindness" is the solution to racism, but in reality its chief function is to allow them to avoid dealing with the continuing systemic racism that exists to this day... Worse still, the "color-blind" philosophy [i]claims that any systemic attempt to correct for systemic inequality is "racist"[/i].[/quote] [QUOTE=TH89;23117061]It's about you individually avoiding responsibility for societal problems by convincing yourself that [i]ignoring them[/i] will fix them, and that [i]trying to fix them[/i] will make them worse. That's reactionary doublethink at its best.[/QUOTE] No, that's not what I'm doing at all TH89. That's what you claim I'm doing because it supports your argument but it isn't. The solution to this systemic discrimination is to find the roots of this discrimination and address those, instead of just layering on some opposite discrimination in the hopes that it cancels out. By "trying to fix it", as you call it, you are applying a blanketed solution over all of society that will not always be compatible. If affirmative action policies are applied in a place where minorities are not disadvantaged, you will only be providing fodder for the actual racists to claim "see how well those [racial slur here]s are doing? Why do they get all the benefits?". I see it all the time where I live; white people scrambling to find some sort of aboriginal heritage in their extended family so they can rush down to the Indian affairs office, get a treaty number, and then never pay tax again. And get discounts on tuition. And be awarded with the shot at thousands of extra dollars in scholarships. Does this help the aboriginals who are living on the reserves in poverty? Likely, yes. But look at how much damage it is causing to their image. These policies do nothing but breed racism. They are incredibly counter-productive. Racism can not be eradicated by forcing racists to just deal with it, the reasons for this racism need to be explored. It can then be solved through better education. There will, of course, still be racists but if we can get them out of positions of power we will have taken a huge step forward. Thanks for remaining civil, and if you see anything glaringly wrong with what I've just said please call me out on it. [QUOTE=BobbyDigital;23117064] post[/QUOTE] I apologize for not specifically addressing the individual points of your post but I feel you said more or less the same thing as TH89. If I missed any of your concerns let me know.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;23116754]I think you may have missed the point of the book[/QUOTE] I saw the point, as stated by another user, "That not everyone is well off so they need help to become equal." It just went about saying that people are secretly racist, sort of like that cheesy "monster inside us all." Instead of saying, "Help those lower than you to be at your level."

[QUOTE=Zeke129;23117283]I see it all the time where I live; white people scrambling to find some sort of aboriginal heritage in their extended family so they can rush down to the Indian affairs office, get a treaty number, and then never pay tax again. And get discounts on tuition. And be awarded with the shot at thousands of extra dollars in scholarships.[/QUOTE] Yes but you see nobody is going to pretend to be gay for this because it doesn't benefit them, merely levels the already unfair tax. If they got more money out of this, I'd agree with you. As for campaigning to change the law, that [I]is[/I] being done, and I think major corporations doing things like this will definitely help speed up the process.

[QUOTE=Mexican;23117350]Yes but you see nobody is going to pretend to be gay for this because it doesn't benefit them, merely levels the already unfair tax. If they got more money out of this, I'd agree with you. As for campaigning to change the law, that [I]is[/I] being done, and I think major corporations doing things like this will definitely help speed up the process.[/QUOTE] This line of discussion has absolutely nothing to do with Google's benefits anymore.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;23117409]This line of discussion has absolutely nothing to do with Google's benefits anymore.[/QUOTE] Guess you're right. I forget how frequently ITN gets off topic.

I knew a guy who was trying to work for them but got turned down. They're a good employer, but they're selective as hell.

[QUOTE=Strider_07;23117443]I knew a guy who was trying to work for them but got turned down. They're a good employer, but they're selective as hell.[/QUOTE] Likely because the demand to work there is so high.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;23117283]No, that's not what I'm doing at all TH89. That's what you claim I'm doing because it supports your argument but it isn't. The solution to this systemic discrimination is to find the roots of this discrimination and address those, instead of just layering on some opposite discrimination in the hopes that it cancels out. By "trying to fix it", as you call it, you are applying a blanketed solution over all of society that will not always be compatible.[/QUOTE] Which is the same reason conservatives oppose welfare. No government (or large-scale private) program will be ever be universally applicable and effective. That doesn't mean it's not worth trying. And we have already found the roots of discrimination. Finding out why people are racist is easy. Fixing it isn't.

I shall now work at Google. (not because of this benefit)

[QUOTE=TH89;23117456]Which is the same reason conservatives oppose welfare. No government (or large-scale private) program will be ever be universally applicable and effective. That doesn't mean it's not worth trying. And we have already found the roots of discrimination. Finding out why people are racist is easy. Fixing it isn't.[/QUOTE] Welfare at least checks to make sure you're disadvantaged before giving you benefits. Any type of affirmative action policy just checks to see if you're a minority. And you can't say that I'm oblivious to the existence of disadvantaged minorities, I live in Northern Canada. AND you're also right about fixing racism not being easy. But the current policies are clearly not working.

[QUOTE=Mexican;23117350]Yes but you see nobody is going to pretend to be gay for this because it doesn't benefit them, merely levels the already unfair tax. If they got more money out of this, I'd agree with you. As for campaigning to change the law, that [I]is[/I] being done, and I think major corporations doing things like this will definitely help speed up the process.[/QUOTE] You're still on page 1, they are talking about affirmative action now. [editline]03:55AM[/editline] [QUOTE=TH89;23117456]Which is the same reason conservatives oppose welfare. No government (or large-scale private) program will be ever be universally applicable and effective. That doesn't mean it's not worth trying.[/QUOTE] No, conservatives are against welfare because they feel that it causes people to be lazy and just accept free handouts. And they also say it locks people in poverty as well, but I digress.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;23117483]Welfare at least checks to make sure you're disadvantaged before giving you benefits. Any type of affirmative action policy just checks to see if you're a minority.[/QUOTE] There is systemic discrimination against minority. Being systemically discriminated against is a disadvantage. [QUOTE=Zeke129;23117483]AND you're also right about fixing racism not being easy. But the current policies are clearly not working.[/QUOTE] Do you have data to back that up?

[QUOTE=TH89;23117456]Which is the same reason conservatives oppose welfare. No government (or large-scale private) program will be ever be universally applicable and effective. That doesn't mean it's not worth trying. And we have already found the roots of discrimination. Finding out why people are racist is easy. Fixing it isn't.[/QUOTE] You have to catch it before it can spread, its like a cancer..the only way to end it, is to look at it just equally racist to find people who might be racist.

[QUOTE=TH89;23117531]There is systemic discrimination against minority. Being systemically discriminated against is a disadvantage.[/QUOTE] Not if you're a well to do minority.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;23117568]Not if you're a well to do minority.[/QUOTE] One of my closest friends is a minority, but she was adopted by people who are VERY well to do. But they can still claim Affirmative Action because she's a minority. Its despicable to me...That money could go to someone who really needs it.

[QUOTE=TH89;23117531]There is systemic discrimination against minority. Being systemically discriminated against is a disadvantage.[/quote] It is unless it isn't, if you get what I'm trying to say. Like I said, systemic "undiscrimination" seems to cause just as many problems as it solves since not every minority is disadvantaged. When these outliers, if you can call them that, use these programs despite not needing them it is hugely damaging to society. [QUOTE=TH89;23117531]Do you have data to back that up?[/QUOTE] You can't quantify how much racism there is, we can just go by what we've observed. You say there may be less racism now, I disagree. Neither can be proven or disproven.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;23117625]It is unless it isn't, if you get what I'm trying to say. Like I said, systemic "undiscrimination" seems to cause just as many problems as it solves since not every minority is disadvantaged. When these outliers, if you can call them that, use these programs despite not needing them it is hugely damaging to society. You can't quantify how much racism there is, we can just go by what we've observed. You say there may be less racism now, I disagree. Neither can be proven or disproven.[/QUOTE] hehe...sorry for the joke, but you could go CNN's route and ask little kids of supposedly racist people! 8B That totally works!

[QUOTE=Zeke129;23117283]These policies do nothing but breed racism. They are incredibly counter-productive. Racism can not be eradicated by forcing racists to just deal with it, the reasons for this racism need to be explored. It can then be solved through better education. There will, of course, still be racists but if we can get them out of positions of power we will have taken a huge step forward.[/QUOTE] Better education is a good solution for privileged racists, but unfortunately not for the victims of discrimination. They wouldn't be particularly inclined to wait around for the privileged classes to finally educate each other well enough to realize that there is systemic discrimination and do something about it. Also, kicking racists out of positions of power for private beliefs that influence their decisions but can't really be proven would seem to most people like a witch hunt, and probably isn't the best way to fix the problem either.

[QUOTE=TH89;23117686]Better education is a good solution for privileged racists, but unfortunately not for the victims of discrimination. They wouldn't be particularly inclined to wait around for the privileged classes to finally educate each other well enough to realize that there is systemic discrimination and do something about it. Also, kicking racists out of positions of power for private beliefs that influence their decisions but can't really be proven would seem to most people like a witch hunt, and probably isn't the best way to fix the problem either.[/QUOTE] Do you think there's a better solution than affirmative action?

[QUOTE=TH89;23117686]Better education is a good solution for privileged racists, but unfortunately not for the victims of discrimination. They wouldn't be particularly inclined to wait around for the privileged classes to finally educate each other well enough to realize that there is systemic discrimination and do something about it.[/quote] So what do you propose then? To me, affirmative action seems like nothing more than building a new dam in front of a leaky one. It won't hold forever. [QUOTE=TH89;23117686]Also, kicking racists out of positions of power for private beliefs that influence their decisions but can't really be proven would seem to most people like a witch hunt, and probably isn't the best way to fix the problem either.[/QUOTE] Private beliefs, no. But when they're vocal about it or making it obvious that they are racist in some other way there are anti-discrimination and anti-hate speech laws that can come into affect.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;23117735]So what do you propose then? To me, affirmative action seems like nothing more than building a new dam in front of a leaky one. It won't hold forever.[/QUOTE] No, but it's something. I'm not convinced it's making it worse unless I see some evidence--sociologists who deal with racial issues seem to favor it. Anyway, I have less of a problem with the claim that affirmative action isn't the best solution as I do with the idea that it's "racist." [QUOTE=Zeke129;23117735]Private beliefs, no. But when they're vocal about it or making it obvious that they are racist in some other way there are anti-discrimination and anti-hate speech laws that can come into affect.[/QUOTE] But the people who are vocally racist aren't the problem. They're already breaking a taboo and usually get removed from power anyway. There are far more people who are privately racist and don't say anything about it, but express their racism through their everyday decisions, e.g. banks and real estate brokers who tend to quote higher prices to minorities than they do to whites.

[QUOTE=TH89;23117788]No, but it's something. I'm not convinced it's making it worse unless I see some evidence--sociologists who deal with racial issues seem to favor it. Anyway, I have less of a problem with the claim that affirmative action isn't the best solution as I do with the idea that it's "racist."[/quote] I do see it as racist. Well-intended racism, but racism none the less. And am I the only one who thinks that it's incredibly patronizing, having a bunch of mostly white bigshots in government saying "here you go minorities, have a leg up?" It makes me feel bad and it's one of the reasons I hate the policy so much. [QUOTE=TH89;23117788]e.g. banks and real estate brokers who tend to quote higher prices to minorities than they do to whites.[/QUOTE] Do you have articles where I can read up on stuff like that? (Shorter articles, I'm not reading a 300 page book) I'm not doubting you at all, just curious.

A company should be able to choose how it wants to pay its employees. If I want to pay the people more with brown eyes, I should be able to. If you don't like it, don't work there.

[QUOTE=Ragy;23117901]A company should be able to choose how it wants to pay its employees. If I want to pay the people more with brown eyes, I should be able to. If you don't like it, don't work there.[/QUOTE] No

[QUOTE=Ragy;23117901]A company should be able to choose how it wants to pay its employees. If I want to pay the people more with brown eyes, I should be able to. If you don't like it, don't work there.[/QUOTE] In a perfect world, yea. However, in a real world all that does is cause persecution of minorities. Conservatives are always too idealistic.

[QUOTE=TheManest;23114732]Form the looks of it Google is doing this to help the gays because whatever the fuck reason is. The law says they gotta pay extra taxes because their married to a same sex partner.[/QUOTE] Not quite, married couples pay less in taxes as opposed to unmarried couples. Because (in most places) gay couples can't legally marry, they don't get a chance to get those lower rates, so by being homosexual, they end up paying more in taxes. Google is covering the average extra cost to let gays artificially marry by getting the same benefits of regular marriage.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;23117625]It is unless it isn't, if you get what I'm trying to say. Like I said, systemic "undiscrimination" seems to cause just as many problems as it solves since not every minority is disadvantaged. When these outliers, if you can call them that, use these programs despite not needing them it is hugely damaging to society.[/QUOTE] I still haven't seen the damage except anecdotal examples of people resenting minorities. [QUOTE=Zeke129;23117625]You can't quantify how much racism there is, we can just go by what we've observed. You say there may be less racism now, I disagree. Neither can be proven or disproven.[/QUOTE] There are lots of way to quantify racism: membership in racist political groups, average income by race, disproportionate enforcement of the law, etc. [editline]05:33AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Zeke129;23117863]I do see it as racist. Well-intended racism, but racism none the less. And am I the only one who thinks that it's incredibly patronizing, having a bunch of mostly white bigshots in government saying "here you go minorities, have a leg up?" It makes me feel bad and it's one of the reasons I hate the policy so much.[/QUOTE] If accepting the help makes you feel uncomfortable then don't take it. Pay the tax yourself. But it's not fair to force your rugged individualism on other people. [QUOTE=Zeke129;23117863]Do you have articles where I can read up on stuff like that? (Shorter articles, I'm not reading a 300 page book) I'm not doubting you at all, just curious.[/QUOTE] Here's something else, still long but the first few pages are still full of information: [url]http://www.justicejournalism.org/projects/lehrman_sally/lehrman_colorblind.pdf[/url]

[QUOTE=yawmwen;23117956]In a perfect world, yea. However, in a real world all that does is cause persecution of minorities. Conservatives are always too idealistic.[/QUOTE] It may give a bad view of the company or upset people, but no one can tell a company how to pay their employees. [editline]04:38AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Zeke129;23117950]No[/QUOTE] Excellent argument.

[QUOTE=Ragy;23118096]It may give a bad view if the company or upset people, but no one can tell a company how to pay their employees.[/QUOTE] Actually, the government can.

[QUOTE=Ragy;23118096]It may give a bad view if the company or upset people, but no one can tell a company how to pay their employees. [/QUOTE] The government has no responsibility to protect their citizens from persecution?