• Bernie Sanders: Democrats must move beyond 'identity politics'
    142 replies, posted
and if reddit being so fucking shitty by inherent design wasnt a big enough problem then you have stuff like this in the rule sets of the most popular political subreddit on the entire website that has frontpage presence literally 24/7 (ill let you figure it out which one it is) [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/BgjR0nZ.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51407524]It's the fault of radical Frankfurt School leftists which have become a larger part of the Democratic Party as of late (especially within young, academic Democrats who are completely embroiled in the nonsense). If the Dems want to survive as a viable party they need to shed that entire wing and find an actual platform. Let the academy shout from the background. It's becoming increasingly irrelevant anyway.[/QUOTE]no one fuckin knows what the Frankfurt School is LOL, young academic Democrats are not representive of the voting base of the american public. 'as of late' this has been going on for 40 years! it's not the fault of a single party, this was a bipartisan calculated effort to decollectivise the working and middle classes to empower capital, it wasn't done so they could shame people about their views on gay cakes. also clearly the Democratic Party itself is out of touch with where the left is going in the country as shown by bernie's successes with young (18-35) voters, you can't in one step say college is where you're basing your views about the left on college students then also say the academic class of the democratic party is to blame.. college age voters just completely rejected the ideology of the democratic party in the primary.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;51407532]and if reddit being so fucking shitty by inherent design wasnt a big enough problem then you have stuff like this in the rule sets of the most popular political subreddit on the entire website that has frontpage presence literally 24/7 (ill let you figure it out which one it is) [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/BgjR0nZ.png[/IMG][/QUOTE] People who make subs with rules like this deserve herpes.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51407524]It's the fault of radical Frankfurt School leftists which have become a larger part of the Democratic Party as of late (especially within young, academic Democrats who are completely embroiled in the nonsense). If the Dems want to survive as a viable party they need to shed that entire wing and find an actual platform. Let the academy shout from the background. It's becoming increasingly irrelevant anyway.[/QUOTE] Please explain what you understand the Frankfurt School to be - because I'm going to assume you're just adopting that from shit you've seen on the internet about "cultural marxism."
[QUOTE=.Isak.;51407531]Nailed it - the younger generation has very little connection to national identity. Polls show, and voter turnout shows, that people don't think America is necessarily "greater" than any other country. Younger Americans don't have that same nationalism. They're far less religious, so their religious identity is weaker. They've shifted identity to gender, sexuality, race, and refocused on class. That's why that's so prevalent in colleges now. They identify along very different lines than their parents and grandparents. A baby boomer might self-identify as an American Lutheran man, but you're less likely to hear a baby boomer identify as a "straight white man." Younger generation? Lesbian transgender mixed girl. Self-identity has shifted. Bernie's just saying we need to re-emphasize class in that discussion, which he's 100% correct about.[/QUOTE]yep.. but i do think there's a lot of power and class based identity lurking underneath the surface there and they really want it. how could you not think about it when you look at the world right now? they just need someone who is willing to represent those viewpoints, bernie's successes with that demographic were incredible. i mean, America is a nation that has spent ..60 years..? 60 years attacking socialist or capitalist critiques and basically turning it into a genuinely bad word + dirty ideology but then you have a huge voter base turning out for bernie saying 'nah we sorta like this'. it's really special.
-snip-
[QUOTE=bunguer;51407554]The left needs to find a more moderate position and change its attitude of self-righteousness. Identity politics just doesn't stick anymore, and it shows, not only in the US but all over the world.[/QUOTE] If anything I would argue for the fact that it is detrimental to their cause. Particularly in the respect where it's been nationally rejected as a viable position. That, accompanied by a myriad of other issues and here we have pres. elect Trump. What a world.
[QUOTE=benzi2k7;51407552]yep.. but i do think there's a lot of power and class based identity lurking underneath the surface there and they really want it. how could you not think about it when you look at the world right now? they just need someone who is willing to represent those viewpoints, bernie's successes with that demographic were incredible. i mean, America is a nation that has spent ..60 years..? 60 years attacking socialist or capitalist critiques and basically turning it into a genuinely bad word + dirty ideology but then you have a huge voter base turning out for bernie saying 'nah we sorta like this'. it's really special.[/QUOTE] Socialism has become such a bad word in overall culture that it's hilarious. You have these veteran retirees complaining about how awful socialism is while using Medicare and Social Security, who used the GI Bill to pay for college and visit the VA regularly, who have their trash picked up and disposed of by the city, who drive on government-owned roads to go visit National Parks. Public ownership and social ownership are a normal part of our country. People take state ownership and management of firefighting services for granted, not realizing that they're socialized in the same way that socialized health care is. Your city runs trash pickup. Your city runs firefighting services. Your city runs police. People are horrified of expanding that to anything new, because it's socialism and it's bad, not realizing how [I]fucking shit[/I] it would be if you got billed by a private firefighting company who put your house out. It's just ignorance. Social democracy is the next step past liberal democracy. Liberal democracy fails to uphold social rights - and communism failed to uphold civil and political rights (and social rights too for the most part). Social democracy allows people to have a right to participate in politics, a right to be free from government oppression, and a right to have access to food, water, healthcare, and other social goods. Younger people recognize that - older people remember communism, and don't parse the difference between social democracy and socialism.
[QUOTE=bunguer;51407554]The left needs to find a more moderate position and change its attitude of self-righteousness. Identity politics just doesn't stick anymore, and it shows, not only in the US but all over the world.[/QUOTE] The left definitely doesn't need to be more moderate. More moderate is exactly what the establishment Democratic Party is, neutered and ineffective. The solution for the Democrats is to be more radical, to be something new and better than what they have been for at least the past 30 years. Don't mistake identity politics as being something radical, because identity politics is definitely moderate when compared to what Bernie said in his quote in the OP.
it's detrimental in that it has nothing to offer beyond a certain point and become impotent if you're not going to work on the actual issues facing people, those issues being inequality, shit wages, declining living standards & just the general shitty life facing a wage earner. there's nothing wrong with identity politics instrinsically cause it's completely obvious to reality that people of different races/genders face discrimination or a different lived reality, it's actually facing up to the causes of those issues and the connections between those issues among people of all races & identities which is the hard part. if it's actually used in conjuction with an economic facing ideology then it's extremely powerful, this hasn't happened much in the past. stuff like the social democratic policies after the 40s to early 60s were still very very discriminatory towards people who were not white. if you're actually going to work on these economic issues then identity politics comes hand in hand, to the point where it's weird to specifically call them 'identity politics' seeing as everyone is an actual person who exists within an economic system so your economic policy should encompass everybody anyway.
[QUOTE=benzi2k7;51407538]no one fuckin knows what the Frankfurt School is LOL, young academic Democrats are not representive of the voting base of the american public. 'as of late' this has been going on for 40 years! it's not the fault of a single party, this was a bipartisan calculated effort to decollectivise the working and middle classes to empower capital, it wasn't done so they could shame people about their views on gay cakes. also clearly the Democratic Party itself is out of touch with where the left is going in the country as shown by bernie's successes with young (18-35) voters, you can't in one step say college is where you're basing your views about the left on college students then also say the academic class of the democratic party is to blame.. college age voters just completely rejected the ideology of the democratic party in the primary.[/QUOTE] Do you remember Occupy Wall Street? Do you remember how it melted down because a fringe of people hijacked and destroyed it with nonsensical, alienating SJW bullshit. And people eventually just left because they didn't want to stand at the back of the "progressive stack" line and listen to weirdos scream about how white people are problematic? I realize that this is a fringe within a wing of a party, but it has great power and an asymmetrically loud voice. What do you think Bernie is even talking about if you don't believe me? He must just be lost and confused because he's also calling for people to stop with the identity politics. [QUOTE=.Isak.;51407548]Please explain what you understand the Frankfurt School to be - because I'm going to assume you're just adopting that from shit you've seen on the internet about "cultural marxism."[/QUOTE] Nope actually I've had to spend the greater part of two years reading and studying the drivel that those writers produced. I haven't swallowed my views from what /pol/ has shat out, if that's what you think.
[QUOTE=bunguer;51407554]The left needs to find a more moderate position and change its attitude of self-righteousness. Identity politics just doesn't stick anymore, and it shows, not only in the US but all over the world.[/QUOTE] The left in the US is so fucking far right it's basically a center-right party anywhere else in the world. We need the opposite of a more moderate position. Hillary was a moderate - she was status quo - and she lost. We need an FDR-esque populist left-wing social democratic movement - and Bernie offered that.
I think the divide is whether you're talking about socially radical vs. economically radical. The dems desperate need a candidate that's more radical on economic policy, but we absolutely [i]do not[/i] need one that's more radical on social policy IMO, because that's where you start to get into the exact problem that Bernie is talking about here.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51407602]I realize that this is a fringe within a wing of a party, but it has great power and an asymmetrically loud voice. What do you think Bernie is even talking about if you don't believe me? He must just be lost and confused because he's also calling for people to stop with the identity politics. [/QUOTE] So we've got some spooky """Marxism""" going around, but you do realize what Bernie said is pretty much exactly what a Marxist would say on the subject of identity politics and class, right?
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51407602]Do you remember Occupy Wall Street? Do you remember how it melted down because a fringe of people hijacked and destroyed it with nonsensical, alienating SJW bullshit. And people eventually just left because they didn't want to stand at the back of the "progressive stack" line and listen to weirdos scream about how white people are problematic? I realize that this is a fringe within a wing of a party, but it has great power and an asymmetrically loud voice. What do you think Bernie is even talking about if you don't believe me? He must just be lost and confused because he's also calling for people to stop with the identity politics. Nope actually I've had to spend the greater part of two years reading and studying the drivel that those writers produced. I haven't swallowed my views from what /pol/ has shat out, if that's what you think.[/QUOTE]Occupy Wall Street failed because they didn't have a goal beyond being obtrustive & basic protest, what they did do though was put the language of the 1% & the 99% into focus for the public. Bernie would not have had nowhere near the same success if it wasn't for the occupy movement, it was the first shot of a changing class politics for the youth of the nation. also did you even read what he said? he didn't say stop, he said it isn't enough. just because something isn't enough doesn't mean you stop it, it just means it's not enough. that you have to build on it and it needs more, aka you need to have actual economic and class based policies beyond equal access to a shit life. god.. great power? what are you talking about? you're basing this on college people's views on identity and then saying those types of views have a disproportionate amount of power within the party? they don't give a fuck about college students. they care about taking money from wealthy people and getting into power to make those peoples lives easier while giving a scrap of socially liberal inclusive policies so they don't appear as shit as the republicans do.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51407602]Do you remember Occupy Wall Street? Do you remember how it melted down because a fringe of people hijacked and destroyed it with nonsensical, alienating SJW bullshit. And people eventually just left because they didn't want to stand at the back of the "progressive stack" line and listen to weirdos scream about how white people are problematic? I realize that this is a fringe within a wing of a party, but it has great power and an asymmetrically loud voice. What do you think Bernie is even talking about if you don't believe me? He must just be lost and confused because he's also calling for people to stop with the identity politics. Nope actually I've had to spend the greater part of two years reading and studying the drivel that those writers produced. I haven't swallowed my views from what /pol/ has shat out, if that's what you think.[/QUOTE] Occupy Wallstreet wasn't a failure because of 'SJW's' it was a failure because it was a completely leaderless and focusless movement that didn't have a plan or real complaint nailed down. [editline]21st November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=King Tiger;51407602]Do you remember Occupy Wall Street? Do you remember how it melted down because a fringe of people hijacked and destroyed it with nonsensical, alienating SJW bullshit. And people eventually just left because they didn't want to stand at the back of the "progressive stack" line and listen to weirdos scream about how white people are problematic? I realize that this is a fringe within a wing of a party, but it has great power and an asymmetrically loud voice. What do you think Bernie is even talking about if you don't believe me? He must just be lost and confused because he's also calling for people to stop with the identity politics. Nope actually I've had to spend the greater part of two years reading and studying the drivel that those writers produced. I haven't swallowed my views from what /pol/ has shat out, if that's what you think.[/QUOTE] And I want you to actually answer this one King Tiger. If you aren't focusing on Internet as your basis for politics. Would you be complaining about SJWs or even know what one is without the internet? Define marginalized left and SJW while you're at it.
[QUOTE=benzi2k7;51407628]Occupy Wall Street failed because they didn't have a goal beyond being obtrustive & basic protest, what they did do though was put the language of the 1% & the 99% into focus for the public. Bernie would not have had nowhere near the same success if it wasn't for the occupy movement, it was the first shot of a changing class politics for the youth of the nation. also did you even read what he said? he didn't say stop, he said it isn't enough. just because something enough doesn't mean you stop it, it just means it's not enough. that you have to build on it and it needs more, aka you need to have actual economic and class based policies beyond equal access to a shit life. god.. great power? what are you talking about? you're basing this on college people's views on identity and then saying those types of views have a disproportionate amount of power within the party? they don't give a fuck about college students. they care about taking money from wealthy people and getting into power to make those peoples lives easier while giving a scrap of socially liberal inclusive policies so they don't appear as shit as the republicans do.[/QUOTE] I'm fairly certain Bernie is intelligent enough to see the writing on the wall for identity politics. He's can't say "stop talking about this stuff" because then we would be well and truly fucked. But he knows that it's a big part of why Trump won and how he stole 6% of registered Democrats in the election. [QUOTE=plunger435;51407638]And I want you to actually answer this one King Tiger. If you aren't focusing on Internet as your basis for politics. Would you be complaining about SJWs or even know what one is without the internet?[/QUOTE] Yes I would. Have you ever been to a major American university?
Theodore Roosevelt had it right a hundred years ago when he addressed this phenomenon under what he dubbed "hyphenated Americanism": [quote][i]"What is true of creed is no less true of nationality. There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all. This is just as true of the man who puts “native” before the hyphen as of the man who puts German or Irish or English or French before the hyphen. Americanism is a matter of the spirit and of the soul. Our allegiance must be purely to the United States. We must unsparingly condemn any man who holds any other allegiance. But if he is heartily and singly loyal to this Republic, then no matter where he was born, he is just as good an American as any one else. . . . For an American citizen to vote as a German-American, an Irish- American, or an English-American, is to be a traitor to American institutions; and those hyphenated Americans who terrorize American politicians by threats of the foreign vote are engaged in treason to the American Republic."[/i][/quote] [url]http://www.vdare.com/posts/guest-post-by-teddy-roosevelt-americanism-october-12-1915[/url] Be an American. Identity politics just divides us up and holds our country back. It's the enemy of progress as much as it is the enemy of stability.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51407676]I'm fairly certain Bernie is intelligent enough to see the writing on the wall for identity politics. He's can't say "stop talking about this stuff" because then we would be well and truly fucked. But he knows that it's a big part of why Trump won and how he stole 6% of registered Democrats in the election. Yes I would. Have you ever been to a major American university?[/QUOTE]dude american universities are not representative of the entire united states, if it was bernie sanders would be president right now. you're not taking in anything anyone is saying. the democratic party is not run by, funded by, or focused on college students. rich california donors do not give a shit about college students. wall street donors do not give a shit about college students. hillary clinton did not spend her time hosting fundraising parties on college campuses. hillary clinton didn't base her Dem platform on college politics. hillary clinton did not have college students run her platform committee. also he sees the writing on the wall for a identity politics on it's own, he literally said it's 'not enough'. do you understand what not enough means? they need to do more than that, not throw it away.
[QUOTE=benzi2k7;51407690]dude american universities are not representative of the entire united states, if it was bernie sanders would be president right now. you're not taking in anything anyone is saying. the democratic party is not run by, funded by, or focused on college students. rich california donors do not give a shit about college students. wall street donors do not give a shit about college students. hillary clinton did not spend her time hosting fundraising parties on college campuses. hillary clinton didn't base her Dem platform on college politics. hillary clinton did not have college students run her platform committee. also he sees the writing on the wall for a identity politics on it's own, he literally said it's 'not enough'. do you understand what not enough means? they need to do more than that, not throw it away.[/QUOTE] OK I've said all of this already so what's the point? [QUOTE=King Tiger;51407602]I realize that this is a fringe within a wing of a party, but it has great power and an asymmetrically loud voice.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=benzi2k7;51407628]Occupy Wall Street failed because they didn't have a goal beyond being obtrustive & basic protest, what they did do though was put the language of the 1% & the 99% into focus for the public. Bernie would not have had nowhere near the same success if it wasn't for the occupy movement, it was the first shot of a changing class politics for the youth of the nation. also did you even read what he said? he didn't say stop, he said it isn't enough. just because something isn't enough doesn't mean you stop it, it just means it's not enough. that you have to build on it and it needs more, aka you need to have actual economic and class based policies beyond equal access to a shit life. god.. great power? what are you talking about? you're basing this on college people's views on identity and then saying those types of views have a disproportionate amount of power within the party? they don't give a fuck about college students. they care about taking money from wealthy people and getting into power to make those peoples lives easier while giving a scrap of socially liberal inclusive policies so they don't appear as shit as the republicans do.[/QUOTE] Yeah this is the funny thing, BLM and OWS were probably two of the most successful and influential protests of this generation and people always just say "it failed" or "it went nowhere" or "it was a waste of time". People grossly undervalue protests that put an issue in the public eye and allow it to propagate in the minds of the nation. These sorts of protests are instrumental to our culture and always have been. You dont need some sort of flawless organization or clear cut directive to make an impact.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51407703]OK I've said all of this already so what's the point?[/QUOTE]"I realize that this is a fringe within a wing of a party" ...yes "but it has great power and an asymmetrically loud voice" ...no you can't be both a fringe within a party that does not give a shit about that fringe while also having great power.. what great power are college students expressing the democratic party? like i said, bernie would be in the nominee and president if they had such power. if you're saying leftist college students have 'great power' within colleges and academic institutations then.. yeh? it's always been like that, but we're talking about the democrats. the democrat establishment do not give a shit about college students.
-snip-
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51407676] Yes I would. Have you ever been to a major American university?[/QUOTE] That's not an answer it's a deflection. Unless you go to Oberland or some super artsy liberal school there's no way to say all college students are SJWs. What do you even consider an SJW
[QUOTE=benzi2k7;51407714]"I realize that this is a fringe within a wing of a party" ...yes "but it has great power and an asymmetrically loud voice" ...no you can't be both a fringe within a party that does not give a shit about that fringe while also having great power.. what great power are college students expressing the democratic party? like i said, bernie would be in the nominee and president if they had such power.[/QUOTE] Mostly in production of literature and other media. They do have "great power" here precisely because it is universities where this stuff is coming from. And because we are going through/have gone through a political paradigm shift and social media is far more important now, the younger generation has a disproportionately loud voice.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51407676] Yes I would. Have you ever been to a major American university?[/QUOTE] Yes, I go to one. In a liberal stronghold area with 50k enrollment no less. There is much less of this stuff out there than you make there out to be.
i'm kind of skeptical about how influential the frankfurt school actually is currently (aside from the conspiracy theory interpretation). i can see a connection to feminism but i don't see why SJWs evolved directly from the frankfurt school as opposed to some other perhaps marxist strain of related philosophy. it's also super theoretical and esoteric as that's how marxists tend to do. some of the very definitions they use go against what i'd thought was common sense in academia edit: also i'm p sure the paradigm differences are really big even inside colleges between different sciences and even inside those sciences. i doubt the theory basis is going to be the same for someone who studies african american studies and someone who studies history, mathematics or economics
[QUOTE=plunger435;51407724]That's not an answer it's a deflection. Unless you go to Oberland or some super artsy liberal school there's no way to say all college students are SJWs. What do you even consider an SJW[/QUOTE] I didn't say every or all or even most. I have said and I will say again, it is a fringe. At universities it is obviously a much bigger force than in the greater public but, yes, it's not every college student and I never said so. SJW is a suitcase term. I'm pretty sure you already know exactly what I mean by it but it means someone who is obsessively concerned with alleged oppression of certain groups (mainly race, gender, sexuality, and other stuff they come up with like cripples and immigrants). You probably know someone like this, or at least you have a caricature pop into your head when you hear the term.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51407731]Mostly in production of literature and other media. They do have "great power" here precisely because it is universities where this stuff is coming from. And because we are going through/have gone through a political paradigm shift and social media is far more important now, the younger generation has a disproportionately loud voice.[/QUOTE]oh my god dude, we're talking about the democratic party not college academia. the literature and ideology of the democratic party comes from fuckin weirdo thinktanks like the Center for American Progress, and lobbying groups who represent technology companies/for-profit colleges/service industries/banks. this is my point when i'm saying your viewpoint is insular, it's wholly focused on colleges & by extension internet cultures. you yourself admit that it's a fringe part of the party, and even so they're most likely not even voting or voting democrat at all. the idea that they're a powerful or influential force on the policy making of the democrats is ridiculous.
[QUOTE=Falchion;51407741]i'm kind of skeptical about how influential the frankfurt school actually is currently (aside from the conspiracy theory interpretation). i can see a connection to feminism but i don't see why SJWs evolved directly from the frankfurt school as opposed to some other perhaps marxist strain of related philosophy. it's also super theoretical and esoteric as that's how marxists tend to do. some of the very definitions they use go against what i'd thought was common sense in academia[/QUOTE] Very few people actually outright think "my ideas come from Marcuse, Benjamin, and Arendt!" But a ton of stuff that's taught in sociology-type classes comes straight from these people. The entire reason why the Frankfurt School is differentiated from other Marxism is because they explicitly shifted their focus from class politics to social groups (because Marxists were baffled by the success of capitalist societies in terms of both absolute wealth as well as social progress).
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.