Bernie Sanders: Democrats must move beyond 'identity politics'
142 replies, posted
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51407752]I didn't say every or all or even most. I have said and I will say again, it is a fringe. At universities it is obviously a much bigger force than in the greater public but, yes, it's not every college student and I never said so.
SJW is a suitcase term. I'm pretty sure you already know exactly what I mean by it but it means someone who is obsessively concerned with alleged oppression of certain groups (mainly race, gender, sexuality, and other stuff they come up with like cripples and immigrants). You probably know someone like this, or at least you have a caricature pop into your head when you hear the term.[/QUOTE]
I know you qualified it with "obsessively" but I am so over the impression that its a bad thing to be concerned the oppression of certain groups (and yes that does include the disabled and immigrants, idk why you said "other stuff they come with" before that lmao)
[QUOTE=benzi2k7;51407754]oh my god dude, we're talking about the democratic party not college academia. the literature and ideology of the democratic party comes from fuckin weirdo thinktanks like the Center for American Progress, and lobbying groups who represent technology companies/for-profit colleges/service industries/banks.
this is my point when i'm saying your viewpoint is insular, it's wholly focused on colleges & by extension internet cultures. you yourself admit that it's a fringe part of the party, and even so they're most likely not even voting or voting democrat at all. the idea that they're a powerful or influential force on the policy making of the democrats is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
It's not their votes that count because they're a small demographic. It's their influence. And roughly 0% of what they said or did during the election was pro-Trump.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51407771]Very few people actually outright think "my ideas come from Marcuse, Benjamin, and Arendt!" But a ton of stuff that's taught in sociology-type classes comes straight from these people.
The entire reason why the Frankfurt School is differentiated from other Marxism is because they explicitly shifted their focus from class politics to social groups (because Marxists were baffled by the success of capitalist societies in terms of both absolute wealth as well as social progress).[/QUOTE]you're literally spouting cultural marxism conspiracy theories now
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51407752]I didn't say every or all or even most. I have said and I will say again, it is a fringe. At universities it is obviously a much bigger force than in the greater public but, yes, it's not every college student and I never said so.
SJW is a suitcase term. I'm pretty sure you already know exactly what I mean by it but [B]it means someone who is obsessively concerned with alleged oppression of certain groups (mainly race, gender, sexuality, and other stuff they come up with like cripples and immigrants). [/B] You probably know someone like this, or at least you have a caricature pop into your head when you hear the term.[/QUOTE]
Congratulations you've defined the Democratic Party.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51407778]It's not their votes that count because they're a small demographic. It's their influence. And roughly 0% of what they said or did during the election was pro-Trump.[/QUOTE]they dont have any influence or huge interest in the democratic party!! please explain why they voted by a huge majority for bernie sanders over hillary clinton, when clinton seems to be so emblematic of the identity politics focus of the democratic party?
'their influence' ..what the hell are you talking about?? where's all the college student types controlling the platform of the democrats? they're all rich old fucks. surely if there was some hidden group of college student identity politics secret frankfurt school quasi-marxists they'd be able to actually implement policies that are currently popular among college students.. but they don't? what shit influence they have
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51407778]It's not their votes that count because they're a small demographic. It's their influence. And roughly 0% of what they said or did during the election was pro-Trump.[/QUOTE]
Do you actually believe an SJW canal is exerting a stranglehold on the Democrats?
[QUOTE=benzi2k7;51407790]they dont have any influence or huge interest in the democratic party!! please explain why they voted by a huge majority for bernie sanders over hillary clinton, when clinton seems to be so emblematic of the identity politics focus of the democratic party?
'their influence' ..what the hell are you talking about?? where's all the college student types controlling the platform of the democrats? they're all rich old fucks.[/QUOTE]
Except a large portion of the actual radical social leftists [B]did not[/B] vote for Bernie Sanders. I guess this is anecdotal and it might not extrapolate at all, but based on what I've personally heard from people (some of whom are my friends) as well as stuff that I've read, the real deal far left feminist types and racial agitators voted for Clinton in the primaries.
Never said they control the Democratic Party.
[QUOTE=plunger435;51407795]Do you actually believe an SJW canal is exerting a stranglehold on the Democrats?[/QUOTE]
I won't repeat myself for a third time.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51407812]Except a large portion of the actual radical social leftists [B]did not[/B] vote for Bernie Sanders. I guess this is anecdotal and it might not extrapolate at all, but based on what I've personally heard from people (some of whom are my friends) as well as stuff that I've read, the real deal far left feminist types and racial agitators voted for Clinton in the primaries.
Never said they control the Democratic Party.
I won't repeat myself for a third time.[/QUOTE]
holy hell if you're actually getting the impression that anarchists and marxists are voting for clinton then you're out of your god damn mind
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51407812]Except a large portion of the actual radical social leftists [B]did not[/B] vote for Bernie Sanders. I guess this is anecdotal and it might not extrapolate at all, but based on what I've personally heard from people (some of whom are my friends) as well as stuff that I've read, the real deal far left feminist types and racial agitators voted for Clinton in the primaries.[/QUOTE]
Nah, the far-left went for Bernie. Most Socialist organizations that were willing to approach the Democratic Party went for Bernie, and any other ones just stayed away from the Dems. Couldn't think of a single one that went for Hillary, and couldn't think of a single person I know on the left who went for her. (And if you're pretending that SJW are far-left get some help. They're just fucking liberals.)
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51407812]Except a large portion of the actual radical social leftists [B]did not[/B] vote for Bernie Sanders. I guess this is anecdotal and it might not extrapolate at all, but based on what I've personally heard from people (some of whom are my friends) as well as stuff that I've read, the real deal far left feminist types and racial agitators voted for Clinton in the primaries.
Never said they control the Democratic Party.[/QUOTE]you have no idea what you're talking about, go actually look at the demographics of who supported bernie. further thru your weird marxist frankfurt conditioning they somehow became more likely to support bernie.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Lzs1qIk.png[/IMG]
'far left' ..voting for clinton? you're living in a fantasy world.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51407812]Except a large portion of the actual radical social leftists [B]did not[/B] vote for Bernie Sanders. I guess this is anecdotal and it might not extrapolate at all, but based on what I've personally heard from people (some of whom are my friends) as well as stuff that I've read, the real deal far left feminist types and racial agitators voted for Clinton in the primaries.
Never said they control the Democratic Party.
I won't repeat myself for a third time.[/QUOTE]
You're contradicting yourself. If they're really the problem of modern liberal theory and have such a large influence as you say then they must be controlling the party. But since you say that's also not the case, then we can assume maybe you're over exaggerating how much influence they really have.
For how much you're complaining about college students effecting politics it didn't really at all this election.
"actual radical social leftists did not vote for Bernie Sanders"
thats the greatest sentence ever typed holy shit lol
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51407812]Except a large portion of the actual radical social leftists [B]did not[/B] vote for Bernie Sanders. I guess this is anecdotal and it might not extrapolate at all, but based on what I've personally heard from people (some of whom are my friends) as well as stuff that I've read, the real deal far left feminist types and racial agitators voted for Clinton in the primaries.[/QUOTE]
I have anecdotes that contradict your anecdotes. every damn "SJW" I know was extremely invested in bernie and was entirely dismissive of clinton. there was no enthusiasm for clinton at any stage of the proceedings. she was seen as the out of touch, unlikeable, unrelatable corporate shill that everyone now sees her as.
most minorities - like most of the majority - are working class.
Based commissar bernie sticking it to the liberals like he has been pretty much ever since the election ended (check his twitter.)
I think among most far leftists (which it's debateable whether he is) things like intersectional feminism are important, but are just a part of the problem. Can't skip out on the class analysis
[QUOTE=benzi2k7;51407845]you have no idea what you're talking about, go actually look at the demographics of who supported bernie. further thru your weird marxist frankfurt conditioning they somehow became more likely to support bernie.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Lzs1qIk.png[/IMG]
'far left' ..voting for clinton? you're living in a fantasy world.[/QUOTE]
You're right, they mostly did go for Bernie. That's a wrong on my part.
My main point is still true though. They never stopped talking about identity politics the whole time. And Sanders realizes that this is a loser strategy and that's why he said what he did today. I don't think that a lot of people will go for it.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51407910]You're right, they mostly did go for Bernie. That's a wrong on my part.
My main point is still true though. They never stopped talking about identity politics the whole time. And Sanders realizes that this is a loser strategy and that's why he said what he did today. I don't think that a lot of people will go for it.[/QUOTE]that's not what he said!!! he said it is not enough on its own, how are you in college if you seemingly don't have the ability to take in information..
also if you were so completely wrong about the voting intentions of far left social college types maybe you need to rethink some more things? you don't have a 'main point'. your main point was that some college cabal of students have a huge amount of influence in the democratic party and are obsessed with purely identity politics.. which is not true in anyway, hence why they voted for bernie.
if you're not including racism, sexism, homo/transphobia as "identity politics" then I don't know what the fuck you're saying
america has practiced identity politics since its inception
[editline]21st November 2016[/editline]
king tiger, I want to ask you right now - if you are serious about wanting to create a post-"identity politics" world, you better drop all your prejudices immediately and get all your friends to do so too, because I can tell you for a fact that minorities are going to fucking suffer otherwise
[QUOTE=Turnips5;51407984]america has practiced identity politics since its inception[/QUOTE]
yes and it's gotten to the point where people in charge of social media companies are playing identity politics and actually censoring others because of it. this wouldn't be so fucked if social media wasn't basically the new media platform everyone flocks to for information. it's time to stop.
[QUOTE=benzi2k7;51407941]that's not what he said!!! he said it is not enough on its own, how are you in college if you seemingly don't have the ability to take in information..
also if you were so completely wrong about the voting intentions of far left social college types maybe you need to rethink some more things? you don't have a 'main point'. your main point was that some college cabal of students have a huge amount of influence in the democratic party and are obsessed with purely identity politics.. which is not true in anyway, hence why they voted for bernie.[/QUOTE]
"Hey I'm a Latina vote for me!" that is identity politics.
He said "that's not good enough." I'm pretty sure he doesn't actually mean "oh yeah, we need to double down here." It's pretty obvious what he means by the phrase "that's not good enough." That is part of the reason why the Dems failed and he would have to be a massive idiot to be condoning an [I]increase[/I] in it.
If you think Bernie is actually lobbying for more identity politics because he used the word "enough" then I think you're hugely misreading what he said.
I never said a cabal of students control the Democratic Party or have "a huge amount of influence" over it. I've denied saying this over four times now. I've explained it clearly. You're wasting time with nonsense.
if you could actually achieve that, if you could ACTUALLY make that happen, I could respect what you're saying. if that's what you want to achieve, I would help you do it.
if you want minorities of all kinds to shut up forever and be second class citizens, they are always going to fight against whatever vision you have. they will dedicate their lives to being a thorn in your side. they see all their political support disappearing and being stamped out of existence. it's why the "left" (that is, the highly conservative neoliberals you call democrats) has found it such an effective strategy up until now.
[editline]21st November 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=TheJoey;51408015]yes and it's gotten to the point where people in charge of social media companies are playing identity politics and actually censoring others because of it. this wouldn't be so fucked if social media wasn't basically the new media platform everyone flocks to for information. it's time to stop.[/QUOTE]
social media censorship?? I'm talking about fucking slavery. US slavery was white identity politics.
[QUOTE=froztshock;51407402]Which sub reddit is this?[/QUOTE]
Couldn't make it any funnier than it already is: /r/HillaryClinton
this is the image they link to:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/91sn32Q.jpg[/img]
Clinton supporters are weird.
[QUOTE=Turnips5;51408029]social media censorship?? I'm talking about fucking slavery. US slavery was white identity politics.[/QUOTE]
i understood that. what i'm saying now is the current reality. mending and twisting of information just because a few people at twitter hq want it that way, or because they're paid to have it that way.
slavery isn't anything compared to the ability to potentially start a race war at the tip of a hashtag.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51408018]"Hey I'm a Latina vote for me!" that is identity politics.
He said "that's not good enough." I'm pretty sure he doesn't actually mean "oh yeah, we need to double down here." It's pretty obvious what he means by the phrase "that's not good enough." That is part of the reason why the Dems failed and he would have to be a massive idiot to be condoning an [I]increase[/I] in it.
If you think Bernie is actually lobbying for more identity politics because he used the word "enough" then I think you're hugely misreading what he said.
I never said a cabal of students control the Democratic Party or have "a huge amount of influence" over it. I've denied saying this over four times now. I've explained it clearly. You're wasting time with nonsense.[/QUOTE]as i said he means that it's not good enough in terms of have it be there but also combine it with economic policies and standing up to wealthy interests. you are the one acting like it has completely failed & needs abandoning.
i say "he said it is not enough [B]on its own[/B]" yet from that you take it as me saying we need to double down or increase it? he literally said 'beyond identity politics' and followed that up with his economic points, you cannot have valid economic policies without taking into account intersectionality & basic identity. you're the one completely misunderstanding what bernie is saying.
[QUOTE=Kaelnukem;51408040]Couldn't make it any funnier than it already is: /r/HillaryClinton
this is the image they link to:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/91sn32Q.jpg[/img]
Clinton supporters are weird.[/QUOTE]
Oh jeez the irony.
[QUOTE=TheJoey;51408015]yes and it's gotten to the point where people in charge of social media companies are playing identity politics and actually censoring others because of it. this wouldn't be so fucked if social media wasn't basically the new media platform everyone flocks to for information. it's time to stop.[/QUOTE]
false information and fake news articles are a much bigger problem on social media platforms than identity politics
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51408018]I never said a cabal of students control the Democratic Party or have "a huge amount of influence" over it. I've denied saying this over four times now. I've explained it clearly. You're wasting time with nonsense.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=King Tiger;51407778]It's not their votes that count because they're a small demographic. [B]It's their influence[/B]. And roughly 0% of what they said or did during the election was pro-Trump.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=King Tiger;51407602]I realize that this is a fringe within a wing of a party, but it has [B]great power[/B] and an [B]asymmetrically loud voice[/B].[/QUOTE]
you need to put your arguments into words better if that's what you didn't want to say
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51407189]He's going to be abandoned by a huge number of progressive SJWs for this. He'll probably lose much of the political capital that he had if this becomes big news.
The Democratic Party is a nightmare shitshow right now. No message, no leaders, no platform, no government control. Practically no party at all.[/QUOTE]
I don't think this puts that many white voters at stake. Trump exceeded expectations in pretty much every white demographic that was previously thought to have been infested with SJWs, which suggests that whether they know it or not the SJWs are usually up against a silent majority that doesn't like them. Black people would probably be more divided over a democratic party without identity politics, but the only thing that the establishment has left for them is Hillary Clinton, whose political career just reached a dead end.
[QUOTE=TheJoey;51408054]i understood that. what i'm saying now is the current reality. mending and twisting of information just because a few people at twitter hq want it that way, or because they're paid to have it that way.
slavery isn't anything compared to the ability to potentially start a race war at the tip of a hashtag.[/QUOTE]
you wouldn't be able to start a race war if people weren't so goddamn racist in the first place!
everyone has twisted information this election. it's fucking awful and it needs to stop. but instead both sides are ramping up insane rhetoric
[QUOTE=Kaelnukem;51408040]Couldn't make it any funnier than it already is: /r/HillaryClinton
this is the image they link to:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/91sn32Q.jpg[/img]
Clinton supporters are weird.[/QUOTE]
I wonder if, in an alternate universe where Clinton and Bernie had their positions on issues switched and Bernie was the one with political/Wall Street connections coming into this election, how pro-Clinton voters would respond. Would they vote for the same candidate, or the same policies/positions?
If the DNC had conspired to stop the first woman president from getting elected because they played favorites and chose to prioritize identity politics for while males instead, Clinton voters would never let us hear the end of it.
Hillary won the popular vote by a greater margin than Kennedy did so I don't think it's a problem of message, just poor strategy.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.