• Facebook 'rape' page to stay despite charity criticism
    100 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Contag;32705671]You can't consent when you're drunk, in the same way you can't give consent in signing contracts when you're drunk.[/QUOTE] Uh...this is different abroad, but you [I]can[/I] write or sign binding contracts while intoxicated in the U.S., they key is that you be willingly intoxicated and not because of medical issues or something against your will. If I get you over here and you get piss drunk and sign a contract to sell your car for a bag of peanuts on a bar napkin, it's enforceable.
[QUOTE=CakeMaster7;32705793]of course not men can't be raped :downs:[/QUOTE] Didn't the FBI or something recently redefine rape to include the rape of men?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;32705464]Well, to be fair rape is incredibly hard to prove anyways. If a girl is drunk and acting flirtatious and people witness that, it is a lot more likely in a juries mind that the girl was consenting at the time of the act. I knew a guy who was accused of rape because the girl was drunk, had (consenting)sex with the guy, and later made the accusation because she had a boyfriend. Now, I'm not saying with 100% certainty that the guy I knew was telling the truth, or the girl was lying, but shit like that does happen. How do you prove rape in these cases? Our definition of justice is that the person must be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. How can you, in good conscience, convict someone who you are not sure beyond a reasonable doubt committed the crime? The problem isn't just the trivialization of rape, but the fact that it is just so fucking hard to prove if there aren't any witnesses to the act.[/QUOTE] Right, that is a legitimate problem, but it's one that's widely misused to justify not taking rape seriously. In my aforementioned Criminology class, there was one upper middle-class white male who didn't speak for the entire year, except to say the same thing you just said. Whilst it's problematic for sure, it's not good enough when people are just defending these men, and not the women who are raped. Firstly, women who claim they've been raped when they haven't (and they know they haven't) are scum, there's no denying that. Having said that, it's a very small minority of women who do say that they've been raped who are lying. Coming out as a rape victim isn't something people really do for kicks. The police (and prosecution, if it comes to that) will interrogate you thoroughly, and your substance use, sexual history, etc. becomes public knowledge. You will, in all likelihood, be blamed for the rape. Rape kits are often taken if the rape is reported soon afterwards, which are highly intrusive and probably traumatizing. You will be assumed by most people to be lying. You will always have the stigma of being a rape victim around you. This isn't something most women want to do, so the rate of people who go through this without actually having been raped is quite low (I believe it's less than 1% of prosecuted cases). I understand the scenario you've described, but that doesn't account for most cases of reported rape. I'm talking about cases where rape can be proved - because of hard evidence, like a conclusive rape kit, or the fact that the girl was underage, or if she was unable to consent due to being roofied. Drunk sex, as has been pointed out, is a very problematic thing RE: consent, but cases where the victim ingested alcohol to that point are basically never brought to trial. Just because a very small minority of people lie about it does not mean that you get to dismiss it altogether. [editline]10th October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Mlisen14;32706629]Didn't the FBI or something recently redefine rape to include the rape of men?[/QUOTE] They're doing this at the moment, I believe.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;32704649]People who get offended by jokes like this need to lighten up. A joke doesn't hurt anyone.[/QUOTE]but what if the holocaust was a joke
[QUOTE=devotchkade;32706638]Right, that is a legitimate problem, but it's one that's widely misused to justify not taking rape seriously. In my aforementioned Criminology class, there was one upper middle-class white male who didn't speak for the entire year, except to say the same thing you just said. Whilst it's problematic for sure, it's not good enough when people are just defending these men, and not the women who are raped. Firstly, women who claim they've been raped when they haven't (and they know they haven't) are scum, there's no denying that. [/quote] I completely agree, I'm just saying why I perceived most rape cases not being brought to trial. You have actually taken a class in this so I will defer to you. I don't have any statistics or actual inside knowledge, all I have is my own anecdotal evidence and perception. [quote]Having said that, it's a very small minority of women who do say that they've been raped who are lying. Coming out as a rape victim isn't something people really do for kicks. The police (and prosecution, if it comes to that) will interrogate you thoroughly, and your substance use, sexual history, etc. becomes public knowledge. You will, in all likelihood, be blamed for the rape. Rape kits are often taken if the rape is reported soon afterwards, which are highly intrusive and probably traumatizing. You will be assumed by most people to be lying. You will always have the stigma of being a rape victim around you. This isn't something most women want to do, so the rate of people who go through this without actually having been raped is quite low (I believe it's less than 1% of prosecuted cases). I understand the scenario you've described, but that doesn't account for most cases of reported rape. I'm talking about cases where rape can be proved - because of hard evidence, like a conclusive rape kit, or the fact that the girl was underage, or if she was unable to consent due to being roofied. Drunk sex, as has been pointed out, is a very problematic thing RE: consent, but cases where the victim ingested alcohol to that point are basically never brought to trial. Just because a very small minority of people lie about it does not mean that you get to dismiss it altogether. [/QUOTE] Out of curiosity, what does a rape kit entail? I mean, if the guy admits to having sex with a woman, and says it was consensual, what does a rape kit prove? Signs of force?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;32706790]I completely agree, I'm just saying why I perceived most rape cases not being brought to trial. You have actually taken a class in this so I will defer to you. I don't have any statistics or actual inside knowledge, all I have is my own anecdotal evidence and perception. [/quote] Most rape cases aren't brought to trial because there's controversy over whether the sex was consensual, most aren't brought to trial because no-one listens to the victim (especially if they're quite young), or the victim is deemed to be unreliable in some way (like she drank alcohol or used some illicit drug, or she was wearing 'slutty' clothes, or is/was a sex worker, or has any kind of history at all of mental illness, including depression). I studied a case where someone got off rape even though they admitted to raping a woman because the defence had taken pictures off the victim's Facebook of her smiling a few weeks after it occurred. Their argument was that she wasn't negatively impacted by the rape, and so he went free. [QUOTE=yawmwen;32706790]Out of curiosity, what does a rape kit entail? I mean, if the guy admits to having sex with a woman, and says it was consensual, what does a rape kit prove? Signs of force?[/QUOTE] Rape kits vary from place-to-place, but... if sex is admitted, then, yes, it's mostly signs of force. Obviously this again is very problematic, because of rough sex and S&M, etc.. However, when the vulva's been torn apart to a certain degree (and it does have to be extraordinarily torn up), rape is usually the case. Also signs of non-genital damage are recorded (like if the person was forced down), as well as tests to determine if the victim's been given certain drugs. If there's no sign of significant damage, and the man admits to having sex but claims it's consensual, and there's no other evidence against him, he'll go free. For other cases, then DNA is taken. Rape kits aren't the standard in every US state, though, and aren't even always used when they are taken (see Alaska under Palin). [editline]10th October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;32705729]Yea, so what happens when two people are drunk and have sex? Is it mutual rape?[/QUOTE] Not legally, but some people argue that this is the case (I don't happen to be one of them). [editline]10th October 2011[/editline] Oh also, most rape is committed by someone that the victim knows (rather than the sterotypical stranger-in-dark-alley scenario the media would have you believe), which infinitely complicates things as I'm sure you can imagine.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;32706001]Uh...this is different abroad, but you [I]can[/I] write or sign binding contracts while intoxicated in the U.S., they key is that you be willingly intoxicated and not because of medical issues or something against your will. If I get you over here and you get piss drunk and sign a contract to sell your car for a bag of peanuts on a bar napkin, it's enforceable.[/QUOTE] Haha oh wow that's great. off to America for me! [editline]10th October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=CakeMaster7;32705793]of course not men can't be raped :downs:[/QUOTE] men are victim to about a fifth of the sexual assault (inc. rape) that women are it's just that it's not usually seen as serious sexual assault, and barely anyone reports it due to shame [editline]10th October 2011[/editline] and a fifth is still huge btw
[QUOTE=Higginz511;32704835][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cycXuYzmzNg[/media][/QUOTE] the more you post that guy's videos the more I find them unfunny so please stop, I like him
[QUOTE=Mlisen14;32703975]Yeah, except when you've been raped it possibly has a little more significance than you're lending to it. I'm not saying it should be taken down, but joking about rape allows people to have a sense of flippancy about it. Rape really isn't taken as a serious matter by lots of people. For example if you make a homophobic remark or a joke about 9/11 on Facepunch you'll see people up in arms for pages about it. Even people who made jokes about Steve Jobs' and other people's deaths have been banned for it. Yet there's been only a few people in this thread who see rape jokes as offensive - despite insistence that rape is a pretty horrible reality in society. I think if you're going to make it light hearted in nature it isn't just going to go away, it becomes more culturally acceptable.[/QUOTE] You are just pointing out how terrible it is lately when comedians or just people in general are being attacked for non-PC jokes. Somebody has been raped in real life!?? Stop the presses! [B]DONT EVER MAKE A RAPE JOKE AGAIN, YOU MIGHT HURT SOMEONE'S FEELINGS[/B] Somebody has also been the recipient of a racist stereotype before, so we should stop doing any jokes that revolve around racial/cultural differences or stereotypes? Somebody ban the Chappelle show from re-runs, nevermind the fact it's hilarious. Kevin Hart has routines about domestic violence. Domestic Violence in real life is a bad thing, but that doesn't mean I can't see the comedic side and find his routine hilarious.
[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;32709898]Somebody ban the Chappelle show from re-runs, nevermind the fact it's hilarious.[/QUOTE] you mean that show that the creator left and shut down because he thought he was supporting racism rather than defending it? all people are asking is what's the price of a cheap joke?
Looks like these people have never heard of sickipedia
[QUOTE=thisispain;32709924]you mean that show that the creator left and shut down because he thought he was supporting racism rather than defending it? all people are asking is what's the price of a cheap joke?[/QUOTE] It was a number of issues that led to Chapelle abandoning the show, not just the direction he felt the prospective third season was taking. "In a June 2004 stand-up performance in Sacramento, California, Chappelle walked off the stage after berating his audience for constantly shouting "I'm Rick James, bitch!," which became a catchphrase from the popular "Rick James" sketch. After a few minutes, Chappelle returned and continued by saying, "The show is ruining my life." He stated that he disliked working "20 hours a day" and that the popularity of the show was making it difficult for him to continue his stand-up career, which was "the most important thing" to him. He also told the audience: You know why my show is good? Because the network officials say you're not smart enough to get what I'm doing, and every day I fight for you. I tell them how smart you are. Turns out, I was wrong. You people are stupid.[16]" [editline]10th October 2011[/editline] My point is, there will always be someone who is potentially deeply offended by someone's brand of humor. If these people were so direly offended by a page of rape jokes, they could just.... Not look at that page?
except that joking about rape makes it more acceptable which is why anti-semitic and racist jokes are generally looked down on
[QUOTE=Contag;32710016]except that joking about rape makes it more acceptable which is why anti-semitic and racist jokes are generally looked down on[/QUOTE] No it doesn't? Joking about beating up women, hasn't made wife beaters acceptable. Joking about dealing drugs to young kids, hasn't made it acceptable. Joking about KKK hasn't made the KKK any more acceptable. I could go on with a list as long as my arm. It's a joke, not some social programming speech designed to influence people into thinking rape is acceptable. [editline]10th October 2011[/editline] If we're dealing with a population where everyone has learning disorders, then maybe that argument could be made.
[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;32710048]No it doesn't? Joking about beating up women, hasn't made wife beaters acceptable. Joking about dealing drugs to young kids, hasn't made it acceptable. Joking about KKK hasn't made the KKK any more acceptable. I could go on with a list as long as my arm. It's a joke, not some social programming speech designed to influence people into thinking rape is acceptable. [editline]10th October 2011[/editline] If we're dealing with a population where everyone has learning disorders, then maybe that argument could be made.[/QUOTE] whelp no point arguing with you i'd have more hope convincing a rock that it is sapient but just case you aren't completely hopeless [url]http://psr.sagepub.com/content/8/1/79.short[/url] [url]http://psp.sagepub.com/content/34/2/159.short[/url] [url]http://das.sagepub.com/content/12/3/267.short[/url]
[QUOTE=devotchkade;32704903]This. Part of the reason people are against rape jokes is because it's not really something society takes seriously.[/QUOTE]Well on the other side of the coin...[QUOTE=yawmwen;32705464]Well, to be fair rape is incredibly hard to prove anyways. If a girl is drunk and acting flirtatious and people witness that, it is a lot more likely in a juries mind that the girl was consenting at the time of the act.[/QUOTE]You have this! Rape is "trivialized" in a LOT of ways, both by jokes and by women (nearly all the time it's a woman, nobody gives a shit if a man's raped) using it as an excuse. It's a serious crime, yes, but there are so many factors involved as to why it's serious, why it's not taken "seriously" or isn't prosecuted enough that it's a quagmire to even get into. This whole thread is over a page on facebook based around a rather crude, insensitive joke. Nobody is saying rape isn't to be taken seriously, nor are they advocating rape itself. It's a fucking joke. Going anything beyond that is ridiculous and unnecessary. There's no grand social issue here, there's no secret combine of misogynist assholes looking to secure rape or even anyone proposing that those who were raped to simply suck it up and deal with it. This is just people getting offended by an offensive joke which was, by design, meant to offend people. It's funny BECAUSE it's offensive, because rape, itself, is not funny.[QUOTE=Contag;32705671]You can't consent when you're drunk, in the same way you can't give consent in signing contracts when you're drunk. Obviously that's a big problem when a great deal of people love to get trashed and have casual sex.[/QUOTE]I treat this exactly like a car accident. You consented to get drunk, you put yourself in that situation, you're partially at fault. This is why I don't drink, because I don't want to inhibit my senses to the point that I'm incapable of making rational decisions. It's probably something hard to swallow for a rape victim but it's the absolute truth.
kind of missing the point there, those jokes are rooted in irony as in it's so out of the strata in culture that it doesn't even register as anything except awkward and awkward things make people laugh. however, a rape joke is just a cheap shot and you'll have to ask yourself if you make them how saying them affects the way the world around you works and listens to you. i feel americans severely disrespect their comedians in that manner by not believing in the power of comedy. it's not just a joke, a joke has meaning behind it. if you watch comedy and don't see the bigger meaning and picture you missed the reason why the joke was made. george carlin joked about rape and used it in an ironic way that demonstrated how fucked up the situation towards rape was. these assholes are just a bunch of idiots shooting semen on each other over really crap jokes and anyone who views comedy as a living breathing thing will be offended because basically it raped people's sense of humour. facebook shouldn't censor it but i think the people who liked the comment should have a giant banner that says "I THINK RAPE IS FUNNY BECAUSE MY BRAIN IS EMPTY. SEND ME HATE MAIL". that is the only fair thing to do, anything else besides that can fuck off. [editline]10th October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;32710090]This whole thread is over a page on facebook based around a rather crude, insensitive joke. Nobody is saying rape isn't to be taken seriously, nor are they advocating rape itself. It's a fucking joke. Going anything beyond that is ridiculous and unnecessary. There's no grand social issue here, there's no secret combine of misogynist assholes looking to secure rape or even anyone proposing that those who were raped to simply suck it up and deal with it. This is just people getting offended by an offensive joke which was, by design, meant to offend people. It's funny BECAUSE it's offensive, because rape, itself, is not funny.[/QUOTE] again you're missing the point.
Unless they are like "HAHA!! FUCK RAPE VICTIMS, THEY DESERVE IT! LOL" I don't see a big problem. It's a joke, just get over it, it's just a facebook page. Rape has played a tragic part in my life, I can understand the pain more than most, but getting rid of everything you oppose or are offended by isn't right. You can be upset about something like this sure, but if we got rid of everything that offended a group of people, THERE'D BE NOTHING FUCKIN' LEFT.
[QUOTE=thisispain;32710094]kind of missing the point there, those jokes are rooted in irony as in it's so out of the strata in culture that it doesn't even register as anything except awkward and awkward things make people laugh. however, a rape joke is just a cheap shot and you'll have to ask yourself if you make them how saying them affects the way the world around you works and listens to you.[/QUOTE]No, I see your point, but you're not really seeing mine. In fact you've made mine for me in the opening sentence. You can't say "these jokes are rooted in irony, they're awkward and awkwardness makes people laugh EXCEPT FOR RAPE JOKES, which are cheap." No, it doesn't work like that. As George Carlin said, "one standard will do just fine." Some jokes, also, can still be jokes without some secret message behind them. Comedy is not universally witty political quips or jokes with an agenda. Comedy is subjective, there are many different types of jokes, of particular styles in delivery of jokes and different mediums to present them. A joke can go along [i]just fine[/i] with no meaning behind it, or else Mitch Hedberg wouldn't have had success. Some of his jokes were just plain retarded, but were extremely hilarious partly because of that fact. Sometimes, quite often actually, you can take things for face value.
[quote]It said that more than 800 million people around the world used Facebook as a place to discuss and share things that are important to them.[/quote] "things that are important to them" Rape jokes = important I also recall several groups being shut-down for much less. These include several groups for activists in the UK, and a group called Racebending, which called out Avatar: The Last Airbender for not having a racially diverse cast. Facebook is simply being two-faced on this matter and hiding under the guise of "free speech."
i agree that's kinda fucked up but this got blown out of proportion
[QUOTE=Contag;32709710]Haha oh wow that's great. off to America for me! [editline]10th October 2011[/editline] men are victim to about a fifth of the sexual assault (inc. rape) that women are it's just that it's not usually seen as serious sexual assault, and barely anyone reports it due to shame [editline]10th October 2011[/editline] and a fifth is still huge btw[/QUOTE]I know I used ":downs:" to show I wasn't being serious
[QUOTE=camacazie638;32695182]Free speech does not mean you should speak; this is disgusting.[/QUOTE] If you're offended, get the fuck over yourself. No one has to tone themselves down just because you want them to.
[QUOTE=thisispain;32695192]we marginalize rape all the time anyway. how many times have you heard someone say they got raped when they lost in a game?[/QUOTE] i knew a rape victim who said that before. needless to say, i didn't quite know how to respond.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;32695178]She does realize that can easily be turned around in the form of 'when you're making jokes about something like rape, you really need to get a life'?[/QUOTE] The world is oversensitive nowadays.
[QUOTE=Alex_DeLarge;32716148]If you're offended, get the fuck over yourself. No one has to tone themselves down just because you want them to.[/QUOTE] wbc
I dont like how the title implies that anything someone finds offensive should be removed. I can take offense to nearly everything if i want to, this shit can fuck off.
[QUOTE=camacazie638;32695182]Free speech does not mean you should speak; this is disgusting.[/QUOTE] what in particular is revolting?
[QUOTE=Murkrow;32701612]I sort of expected seeing a facebook group called RAPE and underneath "50 people like this" or something like that[/QUOTE] ? [url]http://www.facebook.com/Rrrape[/url]
[QUOTE=KingKombat;32717696]wbc[/QUOTE] And I totally believe those evangelist morons have the right to speak their minds but I also have the right to call them evangelist morons.
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