WHAT!? Russia wanted to "monitor" the US Polling stations. - Polidicks

Id think some independent observers wouldn't be a bad thing though... trump is an idiot but a broken clock is right twice a day. US elections are deemed corrupt as fuck compared to other western countries.

[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51237976]Id think some independent observers wouldn't be a bad thing though... trump is an idiot but a broken clock is right twice a day. US elections are deemed corrupt as fuck compared to other western countries.[/QUOTE] You're not kidding there. It's crazy. [t]https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/2300-5.jpg&w=1484[/t] One thing to note though is that it's not so much outright corruption as it is most states trying to get by with running polls on the cheap. Poll workers with little training, machines breaking down, absurdly long wait times. Some places can turn into a real shitshow real fast.

[QUOTE=Hidole555;51237439]So you're just going to ignore the invasions of Georgia and Ukraine then?[/QUOTE] Yes, just like the world ignored the invasion of Iraq, Haiti, Panama, Grenada and Cuba. Including many unjust proxy wars.

[QUOTE=Hidole555;51238013]You're not kidding there. It's crazy. [t]https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/2300-5.jpg&w=1484[/t] One thing to note though is that it's not so much outright corruption as it is most states trying to get by with running polls on the cheap. Poll workers with little training, machines breaking down, absurdly long wait times. Some places can turn into a real shitshow real fast.[/QUOTE] Heres how you solve that... national budgets per citizen for states to spend on their polling, and a rating system that hands out bonusses and penalties depending on their standing compared to other states. I should be a law maker.

When we offered observers to Obama and Bush elections, it was fine And, well, I don't think even meddling is going to save Trump anymore.

This is a fucking great political trap meant for the RT consuming base. If they get allowed they can spin horror stories about fraud, if they dont they can spin horror stories about fraud and attempts at hiding it. this is just a PR move

[QUOTE=Guriosity;51236983]Both candidates are for war. Only Clinton is aggressive towards Russia.[/QUOTE] Compared to Trump's ignorant appeasement maybe, Clinton is no more aggressive than the current administration and representatives in both parties

[QUOTE=Raidyr;51238524]Compared to Trump's ignorant appeasement maybe, Clinton is no more aggressive than the current administration and representatives in both parties[/QUOTE] Hmm, that's not my perspective on things. Trump will go protectionist route with economy and perhaps sanction or tarif. Hillary seems more aggressive and militarily then trump in predicted policy.

[QUOTE=DMGaina;51238354]Yes, just like the world ignored the invasion of Iraq, Haiti, Panama, Grenada and Cuba. Including many unjust proxy wars.[/QUOTE] This doesn't minimize the defensive importance of NATO in Eastern Europe, though? In fact, even though the US has done a lot of fucked up things, that doesn't justify Russia's actions or make them more okay. That'd be whataboutism.

[QUOTE=DMGaina;51238354]Yes, just like the world ignored the invasion of Iraq, Haiti, Panama, Grenada and Cuba. Including many unjust proxy wars.[/QUOTE] Tit for tat is not a good international policy decision algorithm... You don't ignore international rights violations or other scummy behaviour, if you do, pick yourself up, dust yourself off and keep calling it out while you continue not ignoring new ones. Look at me, i still call out the US for selecting Hiroshima and Nagasaki as targets.

[QUOTE=LtKyle2;51237206]With good fucking reason. If the US wasn't around Eastern Europe would already be under attack by Russia.[/QUOTE] You mean Russia would be annexed by Poland :cool: [editline]21st October 2016[/editline] Seriously though NATO is the deal breaker here, although the us is a very essential part of that

[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51238529]Hmm, that's not my perspective on things. Trump will go protectionist route with economy and perhaps sanction or tarif. Hillary seems more aggressive and militarily then trump in predicted policy.[/QUOTE] Donald "Why don't we attack more" Trump is definately the more aggressive of the two. He literally said in a speech that he wants to attack the Iranian Navy. Iran is a Russian Ally, do you think they will be happy with him if he did that? But that's assuming Russia doesn't talk him out of it, as they expand their bombing campaign in Syria and ramp up support in Ukraine because they know ol' Trump doesn't want to bother them directly.

Can the U.S. just go back to not giving a fuck about the eastern hemisphere? Please?

[QUOTE=Hidole555;51237838] First of all, Ukraine and Georgia are as Eastern Europe as it gets bruv. If the Caucasus wasn't considered European then Mont Blanc would be the tallest European mountain. You're just trying to carve up the map in a way so you can go "Well, Russia won't go [I]that far.[/I]" and it's painfully obvious.[/quote] The claim was that Trump would be abandoning NATO allies and leaving them to Russia, who you said would have already invaded by now without us. In order to criticize trump's foreign policy you're conflating countries like Poland and the Baltics with Ukraine and Georgia, which is stupid [quote]Ask any Czech or Slovak whether or not the Velvet Revolution was a good thing. How the fuck are non-violent transitions of power brought about by students and other civilians unhappy with communist regimes exploitative of any conflicts in any way?[/quote] The color revolutions I'm referring to are after soviet collapse and into Putin's rule, which signifies the time when Russian-Western interests completely diverge. Specifically I'm referring to Ukraine and Georgia's color revolutions, which are important because they are not NATO members, they are central to soviet-era nationalist territorial issues (e.g. ukraine and crimea, georgia and south ossetia) that drive a wedge between us and Russia while having a historical anti-communist edge, and they seek to resolve such forcefully with the aid of the West under the guise of liberalization/westernization in contrast to the post-communist governments. [quote]Damn those pesky Western nations forming military alliances and trade agreements! Why can't they just let the peaceful one-party authoritarian nations where political dissent and emigration is illegal be?![/quote] 'My power bloc is more righteous than yours' [quote]"e.g. Soros"... doing what? Do you realize how dumb it sounds bringing up his name like he's some sort of self-evident boogeyman?[/quote] Maybe if you knew anything you'd realize I was using his name to actually mean something outside of his current electoral context. Soros and his Open Society Foundation represents just one facet of NGO activity funding 'democratization' in ex-communist countries, ushering in nationalist parties that support neoliberal economic policies. In Ukraine, the International Renaissance Foundation has donated 100 million to activities in Ukraine with the goal of "[to] foster an open, participatory, pluralist society based on democratic values in Ukraine." Similar was done in Georgia: [quote] The Open Society Institute (OSI), funded by George Soros, supported Mikheil Saakashvili and a network of pro-democratic organizations. [...] One of the biggest forms of international involvement was with George Soros and the Open Society Foundation located in the United States.[citation needed] A non-governmental organization that’s mission is to promote democracy, human rights, and reform in various areas [...] Alexander Lomaia, Secretary of the Georgian Security Council and former Minister of Education and Science, is a former Executive Director of the Open Society Georgia Foundation (Soros Foundation), overseeing a staff of 50 and a budget of $2,500,000.[2] David Darchiashvili, presently the chairman of the Committee for Eurointegration in the Georgian parliament, is also a former Executive Director of the Open Society Georgia Foundation.[3][/quote] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Revolution[/url] The alignment between anti-soviet nationalists and billionaires who desire economic liberalization under the guise of democratization is a key part to understanding renewed conflict with Russia, and why someone like you should learn from the past that the old liberal empire's line of 'making the world safe for democracy' is just an ideological spin to make a 'good guy' out of what's otherwise two empires tangling over money and power [quote]These are parties and movements that are usually outlawed or suppressed by the government they are under. Can you really fault the NED for helping out opposition journalists in a shithole like Venezuela where the ruling party has run the country into the ground?[/quote] In Ukraine and Georgia they are not outlawed or suppressed at all, in Ukraine that's the reason they could seize power in the first place. But yea, I do fault our government for bankrolling movements that cause regime change in our interests, economic changes to our gain, and alienate other countries, making liberalization a zero-sum game of the West versus everyone else. It'll be the foundation for another big war. [quote]It is only causing instability because people over there are realizing what terrible systems they live under and what they're being denied simply because their governments are awful. Globalization brought the Berlin Wall down, the opposite of it is what put the Berlin Wall up.[/quote] These are all economic in nature, since these governments are based on old trade blocs and communist-era industries that are no longer competitive. Regardless, you didn't dispute what I said, especially the fact that these changes don't occur in a vacuum and are used by great powers as pawns to their own ends. You can argue for democratization all you want, it's going to be caught up between big powers, neither of which right now represent rule of the people or national sovereignty. [quote]Yes, we goddamn do have a democracy though. It is true that we do not have a [I]direct[/I] democracy but a democratic republic is still a form of democracy where we vote to elect representatives to vote on laws for us.[/quote] It's an oligarchy. The only thing that separates us from Russia is degree of liberalism, which essentially means Russia is ruled by one oligarchic clique whereas we are more pluralistic about it. You don't need to be Hitler to deserve international condemnation. [quote]You lost me. Are you talking about the portrayal of Putin by people like Garry Kasparov? The Russian chess grandmaster that tried to run for office but couldn't due to a bullshit meeting hall requirement? Who was arrested at the Pussy Riot trial and would have gone to jail via false police testimony that was only disproved through video evidence recorded by bystanders? A situation where were it the Russia of decades ago there would be no political evidence and he would be yet another in a long line of political prisoners of corrupt, authoritarian regimes?[/qupte] Nah, I'm talking about this [quote]To understand Putin’s moves in Ukraine from a domestic standpoint, go back to the start of Putin’s return to the Kremlin, announced in late 2011, effective early 2012. His return to the presidency from his prime minister’s perch has been nothing at all like Putin’s first eight years in the Kremlin. His base is vastly different now than 1999-2008. Then, his base was primarily Russia’s urban liberals and bourgeois elites. Putin lost them in 2011; his base is now Russia’s Silent Majority. Putin’s politics have changed accordingly. Let’s go back, briefly, even further to 1999-2000, when Putin first rose to power. The forgotten ugly truth is that Putin came to office with the enthusiastic support of Russia’s liberals — the St. Petersburg (neo)liberals, and also many of the most prominent Moscow intelligentsia liberals. Putin’s political mentor in the 1990s was the liberal mayor of St. Petersburg, Anatoly Sobchak — Putin was his deputy mayor and his muscle. More important are Putin’s old ties to the neoliberal “St. Petersburg Clan” that designed and supervised Russia’s brutal market reforms under Yeltsin. The St. Petersburg clan was led by Anatoly Chubais, USAID’s favorite Russian (and Larry Summers’ too, who famously called the Chubais Clan running Yeltsin’s disastrous economy “The Dream Team”). When Putin first rose to power, not only Chubais but the whole cadre of Petersburg free-market liberals supported Putin as the Pinochet who would protect and promote free-market reforms in Russia. Chubais praised Yeltsin for resigning from the Kremlin and appointing Putin in his place: “It is a brilliant decision, extremely precise and profound, and apart from anything else, very brave.” Putin’s economic team was stacked with Petersburg liberals — German Gref, Alexei Kudrin, Andrei Illarnionov (now with the CATO Institute) —and the main liberal political party, SPS, threw its support behind Putin’s first election for president in 2000. But it wasn’t just free-market Petersburg Clansmen who supported Putin. Anti-Fascist Youth Action (AYA) leader Pyotr Kaznacheyev joined the Kremlin as an economic advisor until 2005 (today he’s a partner at an oil and mining consultancy). And Yevgenia Albats, the leading critic of KGB abuses during the 1990s and author of the book “The State Within a State: The KGB and Its Hold on Russia” threw her support behind Putin half a year after he launched his brutal war in Chechnya, and urged other liberals to set aside their fears (and principles) to back Putin as well. In Albats’ “Does a KGB Resume Make Putin a Stalin?” Albats wrote: “I cannot help noticing that much of the judgment heaped on Putin for his KGB past resembles much of the judgment that was heaped by the KGB itself on many Soviet citizens — myself included — back in the bad old days. “Those who know Putin well almost universally describe him as an exceptionally honest man, modest in his private life and deeply religious. “Let's give Vladimir Putin a chance. Let's not relegate him to a corner where he'll have no reason to prove he can do better than many expect him to. Let's leave Russia some hope.” Today, as you might expect, Yevgenia Albats is one of Putin’s fiercest liberal critics.[/quote] [url]https://pando.com/2014/05/14/sorry-america-the-ukraine-isnt-all-about-you/[/url] Originally Putin was the strongman of Russian liberalism [quote]How is the EU contrary to the notion of independence?[/quote] Holy shit [quote]Member states in the EU are free to come and go as they please but most stick around because a united Europe is far better than the Europe we had 100 years ago.[/quote] They stick around because capitalism has transcended the national level and they'll tank their economies by throwing a nationalist tantrum against the rule of international finance [quote]The crisis in Ukraine started because their trade deal with the EU was nixed at the last second.[/quote] Yes, because it wasn't offering the provisions (specifically a big enough loan) that'd stabilize Ukraine enough to help Yanukovych get re-elected. So he did like every other politician would do and took a Russian economic bailout [quote]So you have one side where people can vote to leave the EU, and they can, and then you have the other where people want to join the EU, but can't because of interference of a foreign power. You tell me whose citizens are truly independent.[/quote] There wasn't a majority support for the EU in Ukraine actually, and the EU is entirely a capitalist union that does not serve the interests of the native working class and was brought around by liberal national elites, those who can afford to be 'global citizens'

[QUOTE=Conscript;51241361]-oh god I broke the formatting his post is right up there just read it-[/QUOTE] First of all, I never mentioned Trump. This started because you said it's hard to believe Russia would attack Eastern Europe when they are already doing so. Second, you claim there was not majority support for the EU in Ukraine. Here is a [URL="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7212672.stm"]BBC news article from 2008[/URL], claiming a poll found 63% of Ukrainains wishing to join the EU. Here is a [URL="https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=uk&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fratinggroup.ua%2Fresearch%2Fukraine%2Focenka_situacii_na_vostoke_vneshnepoliticheskie_orientacii_naseleniya.html&edit-text=&act=url"]late-2014 Assessment[/URL] by Ukrainian Sociological group РЕЙТИНГ (Rating) claiming that support for joining the EU was at 64% (up from 55% the previous April) and even support for joining NATO was at 51% favorable, with a quarter against and the rest undecided. The poll was conducted with a sample size of 2000 Ukrainians representative of age, gender, and region. Most European nations have done quite well with sensible regulations of capitalism allowing them to improve the well-being of their society miles ahead of the rest of the world. The issues of the modern working class are not strictly because of capitalism but because they are slowly being replaced by advanced technology. We're approaching a future where without a significant investment in education, the average person will simply be unemployable. The thing is, you can't make technology just go away. You can only adapt and prepare for when it's widely utilized. Rather than bemoaning our current position in the world, we should be looking at how to best deal with current trends and where they will lead. That's what the people who jumped the Berlin Wall did. That's what the students who lead the color revolutions did. That's what the liberal Russians who criticize Putin still do. There is no plausible context that makes the invasion of Ukraine acceptable and not indicative of the value Putin's leadership puts on the territorial sovereignty of his neighbors. It deserves the strongest of international condemnation and sanctions and no amount of whataboutism or semantics about nationalism and oligarchies will change that.

You're all welcome here in case your new president fucks up even harder than your current government