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[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38147565]Gun culture originated in a crapsack loose collection of towns and farms that barely agreed on anything. There was poor central government, the economy was primarily agrarian and many people kept firearms for defence purposes or hunting. The United States today is a post-industrial state covering a massive swathe of land and hundreds of millions of people. The Federal government today has powers it could only dream of 160 years ago and the country had gone through insanely massive socioeconomic and political changes. People don't need guns to protect themselves from Indians or rebelling slaves. Hunting is not required to survive. Crime rates have been in a decline and there's no threat of a foreign invasion either. Guns are much less important to the life of an average American today than 160 years ago.[/QUOTE] Defense isn't even why the second amendment exists. Self defense was just a way of life. Police couldn't be everywhere, particularly on the frontier, and occasionally you had reason to defend yourself. It is still true. Police can't be everywhere. Go to the midwest or pretty much anywhere in Alaska outside of the major cities. Farms even in places like California are a considerable distance away from police help. The US is big and spread out. The population density remains quite low and police response times for anything outside of a city is pretty dismal. We're talking hours in many cases. Rebellion against a government gone off the rails is the purpose behind the amendment. "blah blah blah you can't win a rebellion today" You don't need to win, you just need to cause sufficient damage to collapse the control of the government. The US is laid out to facilitate its destruction from within. That is why we have things like a civilian commander of the military (it also generally makes a coup d'etat difficult). Once the civilian government goes, the military is likely to go with it due to its heavily segmented nature and distributed command structure. Given that we sit on one of the most well funded militaries in the history of the planet, it is sorta important that the civilians have a few options in the event that it goes south. If not for us, then certainly for the rest of the world.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38147565]Gun culture originated in a crapsack loose collection of towns and farms that barely agreed on anything. There was poor central government, the economy was primarily agrarian and many people kept firearms for defence purposes or hunting. The United States today is a post-industrial state covering a massive swathe of land and hundreds of millions of people. The Federal government today has powers it could only dream of 160 years ago and the country had gone through insanely massive socioeconomic and political changes. People don't need guns to protect themselves from Indians or rebelling slaves. Hunting is not required to survive. Crime rates have been in a decline and there's no threat of a foreign invasion either. Guns are much less important to the life of an average American today than 160 years ago.[/QUOTE] Over simplification. Ignoring other social influences. Take a look at how guns are regarded among the disenfranchised and forgotten in the impoverished communities before saying something like that. Or maybe those small towns that still exist.
[QUOTE=GunFox;38148404]"blah blah blah you can't win a rebellion today" You don't need to win, you just need to cause sufficient damage to collapse the control of the government. The US is laid out to facilitate its destruction from within. That is why we have things like a civilian commander of the military (it also generally makes a coup d'etat difficult). Once the civilian government goes, the military is likely to go with it due to its heavily segmented nature and distributed command structure. Given that we sit on one of the most well funded militaries in the history of the planet, it is sorta important that the civilians have a few options in the event that it goes south. If not for us, then certainly for the rest of the world.[/QUOTE] But there is no correlation between civilian firearm ownership and democracy or lack of. Nor does a civilian armed populace really win a rebellion, revolution or civil war. It has always been international support or military defections. Even your war of independence. TLDR: Fantasy
[QUOTE=GunFox;38148404]Defense isn't even why the second amendment exists. Self defense was just a way of life. Police couldn't be everywhere, particularly on the frontier, and occasionally you had reason to defend yourself.[/QUOTE] The second amendment seems pretty concerned with militias. If you have a weak government that can't keep a standing army, you will be forced to rely on the people banding together into a ragtag force to have any hope in hell. [QUOTE=GunFox;38148404]It is still true. Police can't be everywhere. Go to the midwest or pretty much anywhere in Alaska outside of the major cities. Farms even in places like California are a considerable distance away from police help. The US is big and spread out. The population density remains quite low and police response times for anything outside of a city is pretty dismal. We're talking hours in many cases.[/QUOTE] Except most of the population is Urban or close to an urban area. [QUOTE=GunFox;38148404]Rebellion against a government gone off the rails is the purpose behind the amendment. "blah blah blah you can't win a rebellion today" You don't need to win, you just need to cause sufficient damage to collapse the control of the government.[/QUOTE] This is harder than you think, and less desirable than you think. [QUOTE=GunFox;38148404]The US is laid out to facilitate its destruction from within.[/QUOTE] If it was, it would have collapsed long ago. [QUOTE=GunFox;38148404]That is why we have things like a civilian commander of the military (it also generally makes a coup d'etat difficult).[/QUOTE] Except presidential systems tend to be more prone to corruption and collapse. [QUOTE=GunFox;38148404]Once the civilian government goes, the military is likely to go with it due to its heavily segmented nature and distributed command structure. Given that we sit on one of the most well funded militaries in the history of the planet, it is sorta important that the civilians have a few options in the event that it goes south. If not for us, then certainly for the rest of the world.[/QUOTE] America isn't immune to the flaws of other countries, and a revolution or attempted revolution isn't going to have a chance in hell of fixing that. [QUOTE=Swilly;38148489]Over simplification. Ignoring other social influences. Take a look at how guns are regarded among the disenfranchised and forgotten in the impoverished communities before saying something like that. Or maybe those small towns that still exist.[/QUOTE] They exist but most people live in or near urban areas. Also the people who tend to own guns are usually white, middle class, and male.
like gunfox said, you don't need to win, you just need to make a really big mess of things. the gov't doesn't want to clean up after a giant shitstorm, so they keep their armed populous happy.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38147565]Gun culture originated in a crapsack loose collection of towns and farms that barely agreed on anything. There was poor central government, the economy was primarily agrarian and many people kept firearms for defence purposes or hunting. The United States today is a post-industrial state covering a massive swathe of land and hundreds of millions of people. The Federal government today has powers it could only dream of 160 years ago and the country had gone through insanely massive socioeconomic and political changes. People don't need guns to protect themselves from Indians or rebelling slaves. Hunting is not required to survive. Crime rates have been in a decline and there's no threat of a foreign invasion either. Guns are much less important to the life of an average American today than 160 years ago.[/QUOTE] I certainly agree that guns are less of a necessity than they were 160 years ago. I still don't think it warrants taking away firearms. I should always be able to have the means to defend myself, even if it calls for carrying around a pistol. On the other hand, the whole Second Amendment thing I'm kind of torn about, as while I think we should be able to defend ourselves against a tyrannical government, it seems slightly antiquated to believe that it would be possible. Until the day I can instantly sever someone's arm off Jackie Chan style, or be able to have a personal armed escort, I'll take matters into my own hands. As unfortunate as it is, law enforcement just isn't quick enough to respond to a situation before it can get out of hand. Even getting away from self defense, firearms are a large hobby to millions of people. I enjoy collecting old rifles, much like a person would enjoy collecting old cars. I shouldn't be punished due to the illegal actions of others.
[QUOTE=Neat!;38151658]like gunfox said, you don't need to win, you just need to make a really big mess of things. the gov't doesn't want to clean up after a giant shitstorm[/QUOTE] Except you are seriously fucked if your revolution fails. [QUOTE=Neat!;38151658]so they keep their armed populous happy.[/QUOTE] They also realise "Well bugger, we need to find ways to make sure this never happens again". And restricting the populations access to weapons is one way. [QUOTE=Leo Leonardo;38152366]I certainly agree that guns are less of a necessity than they were 160 years ago. I still don't think it warrants taking away firearms. I should always be able to have the means to defend myself, even if it calls for carrying around a pistol. On the other hand, the whole Second Amendment thing I'm kind of torn about, as while I think we should be able to defend ourselves against a tyrannical government, it seems slightly antiquated to believe that it would be possible. Until the day I can instantly sever someone's arm off Jackie Chan style, or be able to have a personal armed escort, I'll take matters into my own hands. As unfortunate as it is, law enforcement just isn't quick enough to respond to a situation before it can get out of hand. Even getting away from self defense, firearms are a large hobby to millions of people. I enjoy collecting old rifles, much like a person would enjoy collecting old cars. I shouldn't be punished due to the illegal actions of others.[/QUOTE] This is a much more reasonable argument, however I am arguing against the pure unadulterated insanity that the right to bear arms gives you the ability to competently overthrow a government.
you can't completely overthrow the government? we already told you that.
[QUOTE=Neat!;38152573]you can't completely overthrow the government? we already told you that.[/QUOTE] The second amendment was created in a time when the United States didn't have a standing army and when such would have been impossible. If you tried an uprising today it would fail unless you had a great deal of support (Foreign intervention can often be a deciding factor in revolutions) and had a competent leadership. Saying that guns alone can protect you from tyranny is insanity.
when did we say that? we're saying we will throw a shit fit if the government does anything stupid. it'll be small, but we'll take out a good portion of soldiers and cause some nasty collateral damage in the process.
the entire "2nd amendment is to allow for armed revolution" schtick is just a fantasy even apart from debating whether it would succeed, you're presupposing that people would actually have a revolution in the first place (they wouldn't)
[QUOTE=Neat!;38152754]when did we say that? we're saying we will throw a shit fit if the government does anything stupid. it'll be small, but we'll take out a good portion of soldiers and cause some nasty collateral damage in the process.[/QUOTE] The last time the USA came close to that was the Civil War. Guess how well that went for the south.
still made a mess of things and made a big impact on the history of america
[QUOTE=Neat!;38152826]still made a mess of things and made a big impact on the history of america[/QUOTE] Are you mentally challenged? It didn't work out well at all for the states rebelling. They thought that their right to own slaves was being infringed upon, and so a massive war broke out. The result? Slavery is banned in its entirety and the United States underwent even more centralisation.
[QUOTE=Neat!;38152754]we're saying we will throw a shit fit if the government does anything stupid.[/QUOTE] But that isn't how governments operate, even dictatorships. And that certainly isn't how people, especially the american people operate.
wait how would taxing gun production help anything there's still tons of guns already created and in circulation
[QUOTE=Carnage2323;38154439]wait how would taxing gun production help anything there's still tons of guns already created and in circulation[/QUOTE] Guns have to come from somewhere, because the supply is being constantly replenished.
I hope he was at least really fucking drunk
[QUOTE=Perfumly;38154563]I hope he was at least really fucking drunk[/QUOTE] He wasn't apparently.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38154528]Guns have to come from somewhere, because the supply is being constantly replenished.[/QUOTE] what if they don't come from the U.S. then taxes don't affect that
[QUOTE=Carnage2323;38154635]what if they don't come from the U.S. then taxes don't affect that[/QUOTE] Tariffs do.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38154846]Tariffs do.[/QUOTE] what if it doesn't come from legal means
[QUOTE=Carnage2323;38154879]what if it doesn't come from legal means[/QUOTE] What % of shootings are commit with illegal firearms? Considering most shootings are not pre-meditated. (this is a genuine question, not a challenge)
[QUOTE=NoDachi;38154937]What % of shootings are commit with illegal firearms? Considering most shootings are not pre-meditated. (this is a genuine question, not a challenge)[/QUOTE] Time to do some searching
[QUOTE=Carnage2323;38154879]what if it doesn't come from legal means[/QUOTE] A lot of legal guns can very easily become illegal guns. America produces tons of guns, and these move around the population. The same thing happened in countries in Europe after the Napoleonic wars. Once the armies demobilised you had all these guns lying around that nobody was using, so of course they are going to be easy to get your hands on if you have a lot of guns floating around.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38155034]A lot of legal guns can very easily become illegal guns. America produces tons of guns, and these move around the population. The same thing happened in countries in Europe after the Napoleonic wars. Once the armies demobilised you had all these guns lying around that nobody was using, so of course they are going to be easy to get your hands on if you have a lot of guns floating around.[/QUOTE] you didn't answer my question Also it's surprisingly hard to find out facts on illegal firearm usage
He does have a point though, nearly every illegal gun in the states started life as a perfectly legitimate baby weapon. Around 500,000 every year simply get 'lost' in the production industry. Many of them flooding over the border fuelling the violence in mexico.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;38155134]He does have a point though, nearly every illegal gun in the states started life as a perfectly legitimate baby weapon. Around 500,000 every year simply get 'lost' in the production industry. Many of them flooding over the border fuelling the violence in mexico.[/QUOTE] But would raising taxes on production really help that issue? Surely there's a better solution than he proposed
[QUOTE=Carnage2323;38155168]But would raising taxes on production really help that issue? Surely there's a better solution than he proposed[/QUOTE] There's clearly a problem when a lot of guns simply vanish from a massive industry. You could alternatively put strict regulations on the production of firearms and impose harsh penalties on negligent companies, plus put high tariffs on the export of guns in bulk.
we already do that also, the goobermint is sending guns over to mexistan they've admitted it, it's operation fast and furious
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