• Army wants Full Auto for Accuracy, not spray and pray
    224 replies, posted
[QUOTE=iFail;34204275]Maybe subguns are still in use in some places, but even highspeed, doorkicking types like seals are switching to SBR ARs like the mk18. For our current conflict where engagement ranges will go out farther than room to room, assault rifles dominate. Even for close range hostage rescue type work, I'll bet that ARs get more use simply because that's what most training time goes to. The manual of arms between most subguns like the mp5 and an AR is too different for using both to be efficient. The nonstandard pumps are usually breaching shotguns, if we're thinking about the same thing. Also, how the fuck did this get so complicated? For those with no knowledge or reading comp skill, one of the primary reasons for the switch to a full auto FCG is for semi auto accuracy. 3rd burst mechanically is inferior and it causes an inconsistent trigger pull even in semi auto. Also, tactically 3rd burst is outdated. It was originally designed for use on point targets, but training in the last two decades has emphasized the use of semi instead, to the point that many soldiers only get to shoot on the 3 round burst once or twice in their entire careers. For area targets there is no comparison between 3rd burst and auto, it's obvious that auto works better.[/QUOTE] I'd imagine that a semi-auto shotgun for both breaching and maybe some CQC close range work would be pretty good. For some extra info, apparently the trigger pull for the 3rd round in a burst is something like 12 pounds, and then the 1st is probably more like 6-8 pounds.
You know how much shit you have to go through to replace rifles? At the moment, we can't do it without spending years trading off the old ones and manufacturing new ones, even with our massive defense budget.
[QUOTE=Gundevil;34147618]Already takes 250,000 bullets for the Americans to kill one insurgent, imagine it now.[/QUOTE] No. Just no.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;34167678]No you idiots, we have to use the AK47. It has no recoil and a super high rate of fire, it's badass, i've used one in CoD.[/QUOTE] Nah use the AK74 it's classed as a sub machine gun so you can run faster bro [editline]15th January 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Gundevil;34147618]Already takes 250,000 bullets for the Americans to kill one insurgent, imagine it now.[/QUOTE] good it means they're on the range learning how to operate their weapon to the best of their ability and not fuck up and kill their friendly local ANA liaison Jamal [editline]15th January 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Zillamaster55;34214567]You know how much shit you have to go through to replace rifles? [/QUOTE] Lots of fucking bribes I think
[QUOTE=PrusseluskenV2;34147485]This has to be the dumbest shit the US Military did since they started using AR-type rifles. You guys know that Kalashnikov did? He designed the safety of the AK47 in a way that ensured if you disengaged the safety, the lever would go to semi, not full, thus the soldier wouldn't just blast away all his ammo if something happened. The AK safety is like this: Safe Auto Semi a.ka SAS. You'd have to pull it up a notch to enable full-auto. Why won't the US military just toss a three-way SAS safety on their rifles instead of going "hurr durr we need ten years to stop using burst and let soldiers use FA"?[/QUOTE] yeah AK's are cool in video games but in real life they also jam like a mother fucker, do not handle dirt (which is geographically ironic) and literally burn themselves up. they're really great pieces of machinery. that nobody who can afford better uses. and plus if you were actually properly trained with these kinds of firearms anyway what fucking difference does it make if it's semi, burst, auto or whatever? which the soldiers that get assigned these things generally, are, anyway, at least all of my US military buds (navy, marines, and army) can fire single rounds at a time with auto
[QUOTE=neutra;34147605]Just as Proto said, the reason they haven't made it FA for all these years is for the purpose of ammo conservation and trigger discipline.[/QUOTE] And the fact that firing full auto can cause the barrel to get hot as hell and overheat, causing damage. Well that's what happened to the first M16s. Not sure about the A3 and 4, but the insides may be fairly similar so I expect that it would cause overheating for the newer ones as well.
Main problems with AKs? The magazines easily get jumbled when being pushed down, causing a couple rounds to come loose and jam.
Kind of off-topic but, I think SBR's are going to be the death of SMG's. At the range they are used it's not really necessary to have a smaller caliber for control ability.
[QUOTE=DesumThePanda;34217181]And the fact that firing full auto can cause the barrel to get hot as hell and overheat, causing damage. Well that's what happened to the first M16s. Not sure about the A3 and 4, but the insides may be fairly similar so I expect that it would cause overheating for the newer ones as well.[/QUOTE] That's a pretty much universal problem with all firearms. There was an incident somewhat recently where US forces were engaged in combat for a solid 6 hours and were faced with overhearing issues even though they were restricted to burst fire. That caused the Army to outfit the M4s in service with a heavier barrel. [QUOTE=facepuke;34219461]Kind of off-topic but, I think SBR's are going to be the death of SMG's. At the range they are used it's not really necessary to have a smaller caliber for control ability.[/QUOTE] SBRs and Carbines have already killed off the SMG when it comes to military use. SMGs almost never see action in the hands of military personel and are generally only used by law enforcement.
This has turned into another AR-15 vs AK debate.
[QUOTE=facepuke;34219461]Kind of off-topic but, I think SBR's are going to be the death of SMG's. At the range they are used it's not really necessary to have a smaller caliber for control ability.[/QUOTE] Except in domestic situations, when you don't want to kill the neighbors
[QUOTE=Contag;34220491]Except in domestic situations, when you don't want to kill the neighbors[/QUOTE] Says you, my neighbours are cunts.
[QUOTE=Contag;34220491]Except in domestic situations, when you don't want to kill the neighbors[/QUOTE] Frangible ammunition, motherfucker! You can never have too big a caliber, only too hard a bullet.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;34220779]Frangible ammunition, motherfucker! You can never have too big a caliber, only too hard a bullet.[/QUOTE] or you can go the sensible route and use 12 gauge rhodesian jungle or terminator rounds
[QUOTE=M_B;34216957]yeah AK's are cool in video games but in real life they also jam like a mother fucker, do not handle dirt (which is geographically ironic) and literally burn themselves up. they're really great pieces of machinery. that nobody who can afford better uses.[/QUOTE] an AK fed proper russian ammo will handle dirt just fine and not jam as much as an AR-15 the AKs US soldiers pick up in iraq are being fed ammo picked up from the ground, hence the jams I'd bet cartridge failures are the cause of most of those "jams" you mentioned. [editline]15th January 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=ButtsexV3;34220912]or you can go the sensible route and use 12 gauge rhodesian jungle or terminator rounds[/QUOTE] frangible works just fine.
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;34225065]an AK fed proper russian ammo will handle dirt just fine and not jam as much as an AR-15 the AKs US soldiers pick up in iraq are being fed ammo picked up from the ground, hence the jams I'd bet cartridge failures are the cause of most of those "jams" you mentioned. [/QUOTE] Those aren't AK-47s they're picking up. They're like shittier more easily mass produced later versions which are left over from hostilities between third world nations that are then put on the black market for dirt cheap.
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;34225065]frangible works just fine.[/QUOTE] terminator rounds are a frangible ammunition, similar to a glaser safety slug, but it mushrooms out and punches a hole about 3 inches wide in a soft target. It usually won't come out the other side either, but that depends on how big or small the target is. rhodesian jungle is just birdshot backed by #4 buckshot, as long as you can land the shot it'll never come out the other side.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;34220779]Frangible ammunition, motherfucker! You can never have too big a caliber, only too hard a bullet.[/QUOTE] I didn't think it was useful in rifles? [img]Frangible rounds are available in a wide array of pistol calibers, but due to the inherently high velocities of rifle rounds, frangible ammunition is much less effective in rifles[/img]
aykayforteesehvun is best gun 4ever
[QUOTE=Contag;34226855]I didn't think it was useful in rifles? [img]Frangible rounds are available in a wide array of pistol calibers, but due to the inherently high velocities of rifle rounds, frangible ammunition is much less effective in rifles[/img][/QUOTE] I'm sorry, I thought the ass-end of the post was a clear indication of sarcasm. Frangible ammo is all wonky, mostly good for training and some really specific sidearm applications.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;34229944]aykayforteesehvun is best gun 5ever[/QUOTE] FTFY Anyway, AKMs are mostly reliable. M16s just tend to be more finicky about needing lubricant and clean ammo. Both the M16 and AKM are still designed for semi-auto because full auto is a fucking waste of ammo almost all the time. The reason why the AKM has the side selector as safe-auto-semi is because that way if you just pull down the safety to the stop without thinking about it you're on semi. If you want full auto, it requires a positive action where you use the appropriate amount of force to push it down to the automatic position.
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;34225065]an AK fed proper russian ammo will handle dirt just fine and not jam as much as an AR-15 the AKs US soldiers pick up in iraq are being fed ammo picked up from the ground, hence the jams I'd bet cartridge failures are the cause of most of those "jams" you mentioned.[/QUOTE] i'm not even referring to modern times or iraq but thanks anyway :D they're glorified pieces of shit, put the controller down and accept it
[QUOTE=M_B;34231509]i'm not even referring to modern times or iraq but thanks anyway :D they're glorified pieces of shit, put the controller down and accept it[/QUOTE] hahaha you want to argue mate? you know what? I won't even make an argument about the performance and details of the weapon itself, since you're so skeptical. I'll just make general arguments. Why do AKs remain the service arms of many nations? Venezuela actually [b]adopted[/b] the AK103 recently (2007-2008 if my memory serves me correctly), a modernized version of the AKM, as their primary service rifle. Finland uses the Rk. 62 and the Rk 95 as their primary service rifles, both of which are AK variants. Surely a modern, first world country like Finland would pick something [b]better than an AK VARIANT[/b] (OH MY FUCKING GOSH) as their primary service arm. Same with Poland (except some may not consider them entirely first world). AK-74s and 47s remain as service rifles of many CIS nations, even those with close ties to the west? why? because they're great at what they do. [editline]15th January 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Swilly;34225345]Those aren't AK-47s they're picking up. They're like shittier more easily mass produced later versions which are left over from hostilities between third world nations that are then put on the black market for dirt cheap.[/QUOTE] I said "AKs" for a reason, to refer to any of the variants that may be encountered in a 3rd world country, which could be AK47s, AKMs/AKMSs, AK-63s, or Type 56s. Maybe even a M70. [editline]15th January 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Hunt3r.j2;34230429]FTFY Anyway, AKMs are mostly reliable. M16s just tend to be more finicky about needing lubricant and clean ammo. Both the M16 and AKM are still designed for semi-auto because full auto is a fucking waste of ammo almost all the time. The reason why the AKM has the side selector as safe-auto-semi is because that way if you just pull down the safety to the stop without thinking about it you're on semi. If you want full auto, it requires a positive action where you use the appropriate amount of force to push it down to the automatic position.[/QUOTE] this is true [video=youtube;pv287-W-pQ8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv287-W-pQ8[/video] M16 has a safe-semi-auto selector because each selector position is a good pi/2 radians apart from the last, opposed to the ~pi/16 radians on the AK trololol
that's all well and fine but the AK that was in discussion was the 47. [QUOTE=PrusseluskenV2;34147485]This has to be the dumbest shit the US Military did since they started using AR-type rifles. You guys know that Kalashnikov did? He designed the safety of the AK47 in a way that ensured if you disengaged the safety, the lever would go to semi, not full, thus the soldier wouldn't just blast away all his ammo if something happened. The AK safety is like this: Safe Auto Semi a.ka SAS. You'd have to pull it up a notch to enable full-auto. Why won't the US military just toss a three-way SAS safety on their rifles instead of going "hurr durr we need ten years to stop using burst and let soldiers use FA"?[/QUOTE] again, thanks, though!
i love reading this thread, theres so many [i]gun experts[/i]
[QUOTE=Uncle Bourbon;34239829]i love reading this thread, theres so many [i]gun experts[/i][/QUOTE] trotskygrad knows his stuff though, especially when he totally disregards that people adopt AKs because they're cheaper then dirt and only a retard wouldn't know how to operate them.
[QUOTE=M_B;34239152]that's all well and fine but the AK that was in discussion was the 47. again, thanks, though![/QUOTE] The AK is similar in it's manual of arms for just about the entire family. The M16 doesn't really need an SAS selector because the thumb has to go the extra mile to get full auto, and it's easier to engage semi.
[QUOTE=M_B;34216957]yeah AK's are cool in video games but in real life they also jam like a mother fucker, do not handle dirt (which is geographically ironic) and literally burn themselves up. [/QUOTE] What, is your only experience with AKs one you dug up in Eastern Europe and proceeded to fire? Jamming? I've personally seen AKs work fine in places that gummed up M16s and caused all sorts of problems. AKs are used because they're cheap, simple to operate, extraordinarily reliable in adverse conditions, and offer either high power (with the 7.62s) or reasonable accuracy (with the newer 5.45s).
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;34239870]trotskygrad knows his stuff though, especially when he totally disregards that people adopt AKs because they're cheaper then dirt and only a retard wouldn't know how to operate them.[/QUOTE] actually I'm pretty sure finland adopted the Rk. because of their perpetual fear of russia... though it makes less sense now that the primary weapon is in 5.45 and the Rk. is in 7.62 [editline]16th January 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=M_B;34239152]that's all well and fine but the AK that was in discussion was the 47. [/QUOTE] you said "AKs", which usually applies to all rifles and variants of it.
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