[QUOTE=Camundongo;27047696]Why would be it be so hard for one officer to have a taser - and use that first? Hell, even tear or CS gas would be have been a better choice.[/QUOTE]
Well tear gas isn't exactly fast-acting in this case, so rubber bullets would be better.
[QUOTE=Xolo;27047726]Well tear gas isn't exactly fast-acting in this case, so rubber bullets would be better.[/QUOTE]
I was suggesting for the fact that guy would disorientated and unable to react quickly, meaning an officer could easily use rubber bullets, beanbag rounds or a taser to subdue him and cuff him.
[QUOTE=rnate;27046962]Uhh, no. An officer is NEVER trained to kill anyone. It is COMPLETELY and totally last resort. Looked more like first resort in the video. Obviously the criminal isn't in the right here, but the police didn't do much better.[/QUOTE]
SWAT teams are trained differently to police officers. They are trained to kill if the other person is armed, with what may have been a gun.
[QUOTE=Xolo;27047490]How was he a real criminal or a real threat? He was in his home, then woken up by banging and shouts outside his house, so he grabbed something to defend himself with then went to look and see what it was.[/QUOTE]
When you hear the police a-knocking you don't arm yourself. When you hear the SWAT you throw away anything that looks mildy dangerous just incase.
And yes, he was a threat for carrying something that was potentially a gun. You saw my posts in the other thread.
[QUOTE=Callius;27047493]It was a golf club, he wasn't even close enough to swing it and they could obviously see what it was. They were completely unjustified in shooting him 3 times.
Being a meth addict isn't a crime. Holding a golf club isn't a real threat, he's completely outnumbered and against armed cops, the 'best' he could have done was give one of them a slight bruising from swinging it at them.[/QUOTE]
They did not see what it was, they shot as soon as they saw a weapon. Taking the time to assess what the weapon was was time enough for the man to open fire and kill you if it were a gun.
[QUOTE=darksoul69;27047652]Tobba, if you were woken up in the middle of the night and dashed to get a golf club to defend yourself (and this is within probably less then 15 seconds) do you really think you would have been aware of what was going on around you, and furthermore able to drop the golf club in three seconds before getting shot?
I probably wouldn't, depending on how tired I was.[/QUOTE]
POLICE, SEARCH WARRANT
[QUOTE=Camundongo;27047696]Why would be it be so hard for one officer to have a taser - and use that first? Hell, even tear or CS gas would be have been a better choice.[/QUOTE]
Because he potentially had a gun. Convulsing with gun in your hand = discharge.
You guys are way too sure it was obvious it was a golf club.
[media]http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/1559/gunsx.png[/media]
This is what they saw.
this is a completely pointless discussion however because ultimately the thing at fault here is the retarded and bloated growth that is the war on drugs
I agree, blame that. Don't blame the SWAT team though, they were doing their job and protecting their lives.
[QUOTE=Rock Ironrod;27047948]
You guys are way too sure it was obvious it was a golf club.
[media]http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/1559/gunsx.png[/media]
This is what they saw.[/QUOTE]
Okay so they see a holding a thin metal pole straight up, so thats a gun?
For less than a second, in movement, in the dark.
Yes. It could have been a gun.
[QUOTE=MR-X;27047418]Trust me, when someone is yelling SEARCH WARRANT ( which most of them are all yelling) and knocking on the door you don't just ignore it or not hear it. [/QUOTE]
Okay so it's night, you hear shouting and suddenly men with guns burst through your front door. Confused and scared shitless you pick up a golf club. You get shot 3 times, and what are you talking about he was charging them? That's bullshit.
BAMBAMBAM!!!
STAY ON THE GROUND!!!
No fuck you sir, I'm just gonna run away, fuck those three rounds in my chest.
If you hear the police yelling that they have a search warrant, you don't arm yourself.
In either case, the SWAT team is [I]justified[/I] because he was armed. If he got scared shitless and picked up a gun, would you still support that he shouldn't have been shot?
[QUOTE=Rock Ironrod;27048158]If you hear the police yelling that they have a search warrant, you don't arm yourself.
In either case, the SWAT team is [I]justified[/I] because he was armed. If he got scared shitless and picked up a gun, would you still support that he shouldn't have been shot?[/QUOTE]
But he didn't, so it isn't justified, you can't bring things into this that didn't happen.
The police didn't know it wasn't a gun. They saw him, and a weapon. Taking any time to be sure of what it was could've meant being shot.
[QUOTE=Rock Ironrod;27048158]In either case, the SWAT team is [I]justified[/I] because he was armed. If he got scared shitless and picked up a gun, would you still support that he shouldn't have been shot?[/QUOTE]
No, because that would have been a gun, an actually dangerous object for the several armoured officers, not a club. Pointless discussion anyway, you can't tell for sure whether the guy was actually a dealer, whether he would have done something more drastic, etc. because there isn't any evidence other than the video from a shitty camera.
[editline]29th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rock Ironrod;27048208]The police didn't know it wasn't a gun. They saw him, and a weapon. Taking any time to be sure of what it was could've meant being shot.[/QUOTE]
But it wasn't a gun and they killed him, a potentially innocent guy. I might kill someone I thought was going to shoot me, on the street, but he just had a fork, am I justified?
[QUOTE=Janizaurd;27048210]No, because that would have been a gun, an actually dangerous object for the several armoured officers, not a club. Pointless discussion anyway, you can't tell for sure whether the guy was actually a dealer, whether he would have done something more drastic, etc. because there isn't any evidence other than the video from a shitty camera.[/QUOTE]
So you agree that if he had a gun, it would've been right to shoot. The police thought he had a gun, so they shot.
Why do you think it's unjustified? It is sad that a man was killed, but you can't blame the SWAT team for shooting. It was inevitable once he was armed.
[QUOTE=Rock Ironrod;27048208]The police didn't know it wasn't a gun. They saw him, and a weapon. Taking any time to be sure of what it was could've meant being shot.[/QUOTE]
The officer hesitates before he shoots, he doesnt immediately shoot. If the guy was holding a gun he was holding it like a fucking club and he should have recognised that
[QUOTE=RAG Frag;27048264]The officer hesitates before he shoots, he doesnt immediately shoot. If the guy was holding a gun he was holding it like a fucking club and he should have recognised that[/QUOTE]
The officer does. The SWAT doesn't. They're in dangerous situations where hesitating means you [I]will[/I] get shot. If not from this guy, then the next guy you see in the dark holding something threateningly.
[QUOTE=Rock Ironrod;27048300]The officer does. The SWAT doesn't. They're in dangerous situations where hesitating means you [I]will[/I] get shot. If not from this guy, then the next guy you see in the dark holding something threateningly.[/QUOTE]
No I mean, the officer who shot hesitated
The guy was holding as far as SWAT was concerned a weapon. Not only was he holding it, he had it raised up as in to hit someone. SWATs not going to "hey buddy, put it down alright.", that's a cop's job. SWAT raids typically consist of this. A bunch of drug dealers in a house with guns and worse. They were conducting a raid on a supposed Drug Dealer. Drug Dealers try to go out with a bang.
[QUOTE=darkrei9n;27048338]The guy was holding as far as SWAT was concerned a weapon. Not only was he holding it, he had it raised up as in to hit someone. SWATs not going to "hey buddy, put it down alright.", that's a cop's job. SWAT raids typically consist of this. A bunch of drug dealers in a house with guns and worse. They were conducting a raid on a supposed Drug Dealer. [b]Drug Dealers try to go out with a bang.[/b][/QUOTE]
You watch too much movies, if they use guns, it's only to protect themselfs, not to kill a few cops before they get shot themself.
[QUOTE=RAG Frag;27048331]No I mean, the officer who shot hesitated[/QUOTE]
What? No he didn't. The instant he took aim he fired. Follow the flashlight, there was a half a second between the light hitting him and the gunshots going off. In that time, he thought "weapon" and fired.
[QUOTE=mobrockers;27048373]You watch too much movies, if they use guns, it's only to protect themselfs, not to kill a few cops before they get shot themself.[/QUOTE]
If you would like I could go ask my teacher who was in SWAT about how many houses they raided had some sort of weapon.
[QUOTE=Rock Ironrod;27048380]What? No he didn't. The instant he took aim he fired. Follow the flashlight, there was a half a second between the light hitting him and the gunshots going off. In that time, he thought "weapon" and fired.[/QUOTE]
I keep watching and timing that moment and I just notice a slight hesitation there
The only hesitation I see, personally, is aiming time.
[QUOTE=Rock Ironrod;27048516]The only hesitation I see, personally, is aiming time.[/QUOTE]
Nah he pretty much had the gun there. Still noticing a pause.
I'm seeing the flashlight like an indicator of where he's aiming, and him centering the shot once it lands before he fires.
But that's just my intepretation.
But still raid shouldn't happen in first place... and that what is wrong with that whole situation.
Sheesh. They could have at least knocked and clearly announced their presence first or something, instead of all shouting over each other and then busting down the door.
Poor guy probably had no idea what was going on and died before he realised his mistake.
[QUOTE=HeatPipe;27048692]But still raid shouldn't happen in first place... and that what is wrong with that whole situation.[/QUOTE]
I don't see how, unless you're blaming the war on drugs like that other guy. In which case I agree.
Just don't blame the SWAT team themselves, they were justified in shooting.
[QUOTE=Rock Ironrod;27048258]So you agree that if he had a gun, it would've been right to shoot. The police thought he had a gun, so they shot.
Why do you think it's unjustified? It is sad that a man was killed, but you can't blame the SWAT team for shooting. It was inevitable once he was armed.[/QUOTE]
It's bad because it wasn't a gun. It's the SWAT team's fault for not recognizing the object, and because of that a possibly innocent man was killed. As I said, if I kill someone I thought was holding a gun, but in fact wasn't, am I justified?
[QUOTE=Janizaurd;27048740]It's bad because it wasn't a gun. It's the SWAT team's fault for not recognizing the object, and because of that a possibly innocent man was killed. As I said, if I kill someone I thought was holding a gun, but in fact wasn't, am I justified?[/QUOTE]
They were in a situation where they didn't have time to ascertain what weapon it was. If it was a gun, he could have shot and killed someone in the time it took for them to be sure.[QUOTE=BLOODGA$M;27048723]Sheesh. They could have at least knocked and clearly announced their presence first or something, instead of all shouting over each other and then busting down the door.
Poor guy probably had no idea what was going on and died before he realised his mistake.[/QUOTE]
That's silly and you should feel silly.
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