Australian Police - 10% of Firearms Seized are Homemade - Polidicks

[t]http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/brazilianhomemadesmglarge.jpg[/t] This is the tale of a Luty and Blimp making hard love, and this is the bastard child. [editline]23rd June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Ericson666;45184506][t]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-P5h8lGe-Xuw/UO3zzrIDGlI/AAAAAAAAakY/rEzwzlMN8Fw/s1600/GUN++HOMEMADE+%23+1.jpg[/t] aaaaaaaaahhhh what the fuck is that[/QUOTE] IIRC, it was made by a guy who worked for an auto-shop, and it's commonly known on gunforums as being a "Wombat-pattern Machine Pistol". Some have suggested that the mechanics are a mixture of a M3 Grease Gun and MP40, but no one is really sure as no cutaway has been found or any images of the construction released by the Sydney Police Department that captured it.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45185661]If the market price of a gun is high, fewer criminals will have access to them. I wouldn't call that mental gymnastics. At least not serious ones.[/QUOTE] The market price of automatic firearms is higher, again for control of power reasons not because criminals have a vested interest in public safety Automatic weapons have never been particularly plentiful in Australia. There's still loads of handguns and semi automatic rifles around. Australian police have long suspected there is still quite a number of buried caches out in the rural areas containing firearms people did not wish to turn in. semiautomatic pistols and illegal shotguns are still widespread and easily available, and they are of course the largest chunk of firearm homicide statistics. Automatic weapons are rarely used in crime. An increased amount of criminal elements arming themselves with homemade SMGs speaks more to increased conflict as of recently than it does to public safety.

By the way, think I should post this: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv33pCUkLRM[/media] This is the design that is flourishing right now with Bikie gangs. That's kinda terrifying actually.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45186130]Uhm... Why exactly is that? Is [I]every[/I] criminal now capable of making their own gun? And if so, why didn't they do it before? You're kinda making some leaps here, and I'm not sure I follow every one of them.[/QUOTE] What hes conveying to you is if the intent of gun control laws is to disarm criminals of firepower, it quite clearly hasn't done that. "if so why didnt they do it before" This isn't a new thing just fyi

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;45190475]er no, firearms are more expensive in the black market due to the risk, risk drives up price[/QUOTE]I charge you a million dollars for a peanut butter sandwich, because I'm allergic to peanuts and it's risky for me to handle peanut products. You don't buy my sandwich. You buy the sandwich from some other guy, because he's not a fucking retard and is willing to sell his merchandise at a reasonable price.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;45190730]I charge you a million dollars for a peanut butter sandwich, because I'm allergic to peanuts and it's risky for me to handle peanut products. You don't buy my sandwich. You buy the sandwich from some other guy, because he's not selling a million dollar sandwiches.[/QUOTE] Except the other guy is allegic to peanuts as well?

[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;45190751]Except the other guy is allegic to peanuts as well?[/QUOTE]So? There's other type of sandwiches, you don't [i]need[/i] peanut butter, and nobody is ever going to pay that much for a lousy peanut butter sandwich anyway.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;45190767]So? There's other type of sandwiches, you don't [i]need[/i] peanut butter, and nobody is ever going to pay that much for a lousy peanut butter sandwich anyway.[/QUOTE] All black market guns are illegal, though, so there [I]aren't[/I] other types of sandwiches, because everyone is allergic to every type.

But some sandwiches can be a peanutbutter and jelly sandwich, a nice blackforest ham with provolone sandwich, or turkey with lettuce sandwich. Because you know, some guns have different methods of creation, smuggling, and all that. And I want a blackforest ham sandwich with provolone and swiss. Don't judge me.

wasn't the british sten gun made out of plumbing parts

[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;45190845]All black market guns are illegal, though, so there [I]aren't[/I] other types of sandwiches, because everyone is allergic to every type.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45190909]But some sandwiches can be a peanutbutter and jelly sandwich, a nice blackforest ham with provolone sandwich, or turkey with lettuce sandwich. Because you know, some guns have different methods of creation, smuggling, and all that. And I want a blackforest ham sandwich with provolone and swiss. Don't judge me.[/QUOTE]This analogy has gotten well out of hand. Anyway, just because it's illegal doesn't mean that the risk involved warrants an increase in price. Nobody except tacticool autists will buy them if they're unbelievably expensive, and eventually somebody will come along and offer cheaper guns. Part of sales is knowing how much your product is truly worth, and how much a consumer will pay for it. Illegal firearms aren't some family heirloom, unless you never fire it they're going to pretty much be limited to one use before disposal. They have no real value because of this, and the supplier knows it. An example of this is an illegal fully automatic AR15, non-serialized and built from ghost parts, is going to be only slightly more expensive than it's legal semi-automatic counterpart. (really, you're paying for a handful of parts that are different) Meanwhile a full automatic AR15 is going to be thousands upon thousands of dollars, you're paying more for the legality of it.

Please, real men use staple guns as bases for their improvised firearms. Like this. [img_thumb]http://amodestpublication.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/staplezipgun.jpg[/img_thumb]

That is terrifyingly crappy.

It'll either fire a bullet at what you're aiming at or explode and literally disarm you

[QUOTE=STRIDERS;45191285]Please, real men use staple guns as bases for their improvised firearms. Like this. [img_thumb]http://amodestpublication.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/staplezipgun.jpg[/img_thumb][/QUOTE] That looks janky as fuck.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45190660]By the way, think I should post this: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv33pCUkLRM[/media] This is the design that is flourishing right now with Bikie gangs. That's kinda terrifying actually.[/QUOTE] Storm Troopers would be more accurate, look at the way that thing jumps around.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45189846]I did know, though. Whether the guns on the black market are custom made or simply imported "real" guns doesn't really matter all that much to me. But the fact that they're now manufacturing guns themselves shows that the black market price has reached a certain point - a high one, probably.[/QUOTE] Id honestly expect prices to hit a cap and then start slowly trickling back down again without other major factors being involved. The information is becoming more widely available, and the equipment required to make things is definitely not getting more expensive over time.

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;45194780]Id honestly expect prices to hit a cap and then start slowly trickling back down again without other major factors being involved. The information is becoming more widely available, and the equipment required to make things is definitely not getting more expensive over time.[/QUOTE] Honestly it's cheap as hell to build a basic SMG. All you really need is a few dollars worth of plumbing parts, a drill press, and a welder. That'll make something that will shoot, however it'll be inaccurate. Then again it doesn't cost a whole lot more to make it accurate.

[QUOTE=RR_Raptor65;45193463]Storm Troopers would be more accurate, look at the way that thing jumps around.[/QUOTE] Actually Raptor, whatever happened to your MP design? You mind posting it in here?

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;45190730]I charge you a million dollars for a peanut butter sandwich, because I'm allergic to peanuts and it's risky for me to handle peanut products. You don't buy my sandwich. You buy the sandwich from some other guy, because he's not a fucking retard and is willing to sell his merchandise at a reasonable price.[/QUOTE] what a stupid analogy. in countries like australia (and here in nz) you're going to do heavy jail time for possession of an illegal firearm, therefore it's risky to sell, possess, buy even KNOW about illegal firearms, that risk makes them more expensive.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;45197454]what a stupid analogy. in countries like australia (and here in nz) you're going to do heavy jail time for possession of an illegal firearm, therefore it's risky to sell, possess, buy even KNOW about illegal firearms, that risk makes them more expensive.[/QUOTE]You're right, it was a stupid analogy and it went to hell pretty much right away. All of that aside you could say the same thing for anything else that's prohibited and carries a hefty penalty for possession. People still move drugs, people still produce drugs, people still sell drugs, and all the while these illicit drugs are far cheaper than they are legally. Maybe things are literally backwards down under, I don't know, but that's generally how the black market works here. Hell, even stolen merchandise that is valued in the millions of dollars isn't going to be fenced for even ten percent of it's market value. Depending on what you steal, there's so much risk involved that by your logic any brave thief should expect to get billions (instead of millions) for his or her hard work. Reality would disagree with you because nobody will pay market price for something if it'll mean they'll get in trouble for having it.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45196281]Actually Raptor, whatever happened to your MP design? You mind posting it in here?[/QUOTE] [img_thumb]http://i.imgur.com/dpPSgBu.jpg[/img_thumb] This? Would cost about $100 in materials and take about a week to make. Though when I calculated the cost I chose 4130 alloy steel for a lot of parts that really don't need to be alloy steel, you could use 1018 mild steel instead, the barrel could be substituted with an alloy steel pipe instead of an actual rifled barrel and the whole thing would be vastly less expensive. Replace the wood components with tubing and/or wire and it'd be easier to make too. Also the whole thing can be made with a hammer, an angle grinder, a welder and files. I actually have an [url=http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5320-1.pdf]ATF form 5320-1[/url] filled out for it, but since I'm not a corrupt politician looking to make some campaign money by buying a $700 machine gun from the manufacturer then selling it on the civilian market for $50k+ they'd never accept it.

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;45197906]You're right, it was a stupid analogy and it went to hell pretty much right away. All of that aside you could say the same thing for anything else that's prohibited and carries a hefty penalty for possession. People still move drugs, people still produce drugs, people still sell drugs, and all the while these illicit drugs are far cheaper than they are legally. Maybe things are literally backwards down under, I don't know, but that's generally how the black market works here. Hell, even stolen merchandise that is valued in the millions of dollars isn't going to be fenced for even ten percent of it's market value. Depending on what you steal, there's so much risk involved that by your logic any brave thief should expect to get billions (instead of millions) for his or her hard work. Reality would disagree with you because nobody will pay market price for something if it'll mean they'll get in trouble for having it.[/QUOTE] you're getting it wrong again? drugs are far more expensive due to their illegality, again, because of the risk involved. stolen merchandise is different, because why would you pay more for something you could get legally for less

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45183609]The fact these weapons are getting made shows that gun laws work - the black market is way too expensive, so they're starting to make their own shit (which will most probably be of inferior use).[/QUOTE] You realise that quite a lot of these here zippies are being sold on the Black Market, right?

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;45197454]what a stupid analogy. in countries like australia (and here in nz) you're going to do heavy jail time for possession of an illegal firearm, therefore it's risky to sell, possess, buy even KNOW about illegal firearms, that risk makes them more expensive.[/QUOTE] The same applies for drugs I can tell you right now steroids and cocaine don't cost a great deal more than they would in a pharmacy. These aren't real economic factors you speaking on, and its a moot point - black markets operate in a pseduo free market, i.e if these people were priced out as you are postulating (with no evidence) they've taken a free market solution to that - make your own.

[QUOTE=RR_Raptor65;45198077][img_thumb]http://i.imgur.com/dpPSgBu.jpg[/img_thumb] This? Would cost about $100 in materials and take about a week to make. Though when I calculated the cost I chose 4130 alloy steel for a lot of parts that really don't need to be alloy steel, you could use 1018 mild steel instead, the barrel could be substituted with an alloy steel pipe instead of an actual rifled barrel and the whole thing would be vastly less expensive. Replace the wood components with tubing and/or wire and it'd be easier to make too. Also the whole thing can be made with a hammer, an angle grinder, a welder and files. I actually have an [url=http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5320-1.pdf]ATF form 5320-1[/url] filled out for it, but since I'm not a corrupt politician looking to make some campaign money by buying a $700 machine gun from the manufacturer then selling it on the civilian market for $50k+ they'd never accept it.[/QUOTE] I still say you should make a "civilian model" and have a semi-auto dakkah for use as a carbine rifle. Also that really fucking blows that you can't get it accepted for building, would be a nice little gun for project/use. One question I don't believe I have ever asked though: Is it illegal to release blueprints on how to build a gun like this? Would be a kinda funny experiment to see if you released the blueprints for building if it somehow managed to show up on the streets somewhere.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45186130]Uhm... Why exactly is that? Is [I]every[/I] criminal now capable of making their own gun? And if so, why didn't they do it before? You're kinda making some leaps here, and I'm not sure I follow every one of them.[/QUOTE] You can make a gun with a piece of pipe and a nail. It's not exactly hard.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45201597]I still say you should make a "civilian model" and have a semi-auto dakkah for use as a carbine rifle. Also that really fucking blows that you can't get it accepted for building, would be a nice little gun for project/use. One question I don't believe I have ever asked though: Is it illegal to release blueprints on how to build a gun like this? Would be a kinda funny experiment to see if you released the blueprints for building if it somehow managed to show up on the streets somewhere.[/QUOTE] The hard part would be fitting all the parts necessary for semi-auto in there. Full auto is easy, there's just a simple sear not unlike what the DP-28 has. As far as I know, information isn't illegal in the US and frankly it shouldn't be. I would actually be perfectly okay with jumping through a few Federal hoops to file a 5320 to build this thing, but that's not even an option for lowly peasants like us anymore and that just pisses me off.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;45198080]you're getting it wrong again? drugs are far more expensive due to their illegality, again, because of the risk involved. stolen merchandise is different, because why would you pay more for something you could get legally for less[/QUOTE]lol no they're not! Black market pharmaceutical prices are a fucking FRACTION of what they are legally, otherwise there wouldn't be any goddamn black market. Your second sentence is literally my point. Why the hell would I pay like 5000+ for a full-auto MAC-10 clone when I literally can buy one legally for that price, tax stamps included. I'm going to be paying fucking 300-500 max for it, probably less than that, because I will have to [b]throw it away after I fire it in anger[/b] because it's not only a highly illegal weapon, but it's also killed motherfuckers. Carrying that is like tattooing "I am a murderer please have no sympathy on me" right on my forehead, the cops aren't going to be nice about it. Look, I get what you're saying but you're mistaken on what items warrant a higher price. Examples: I can buy a steak, but if I want one from a lion I will have to pay more I can buy a hooker, but if I want one in the 10-13 age range, I'll have to pay more (or go to Thailand) I can buy a gun, even an illegal gun for less than a thousand bucks, but if I want a SMAW (there is no legal equivalent) I will have to pay more

[QUOTE=RR_Raptor65;45202128]The hard part would be fitting all the parts necessary for semi-auto in there. Full auto is easy, there's just a simple sear not unlike what the DP-28 has. As far as I know, information isn't illegal in the US and frankly it shouldn't be. I would actually be perfectly okay with jumping through a few Federal hoops to file a 5320 to build this thing, but that's not even an option for lowly peasants like us anymore and that just pisses me off.[/QUOTE] I was looking at [URL="http://thehomegunsmith.com/pdf/BSP-Semi-Auto.pdf"]the guide regarding how to build a semi-auto Luty[/URL], and I was wondering if something in similar practice could be done with the DP-28 sear. Anyay though, you should really give that build a shot, and have it as a little something to show n' tell on FP, and possibly get one of the other gun club guys to help you write up a book for places like Scribd and /K/. I can only imagine that people would love ya' for making a pretty bad-ass machine gun. Also, what exactly does the 5320 allow on the legal basis? Can you literally just design your own machine pistol and build it, and call it as your own..? Isn't that a loophole of sorts? Was this sorta thing only allowed before the Hughes Amendment? Either way though, you could always try convincing your local Police Department into adopting your design haha.