[QUOTE=thisispain;33593224]is that really relevant when debating what the flag represents and what the confederacy stood for?
[/QUOTE]
"So far from engaging in a war to perpetuate slavery, [b]I am rejoiced that slavery is abolished.[/b] I believe it will be greatly for the interests of the South. So fully am I satisfied of this, as regards Virginia especially, that I would cheerfully have lost all I have lost by the war, and have suffered all I have suffered, to have this object attained."
Robert E Lee said that.
The flag was just a battle flag and to associate it with Slavery and Racism is wrong. As I said in my first post, it's when extremists got a hold of it as a symbol for their bigotry that it became a negative symbol. There's also the fact that Southerners felt a grudge after the war and flew it out of spite against the North, giving it a negative representation of Southern ideals.
[QUOTE=Master X;33593265]If I'm not mistaken, he only started saying shit like that [i]after[/i] the war started and he realized he could use anti-slavery to damage the South. Didn't he own slaves?[/QUOTE]
Source on him owning slaves. His own slave owning would be illegal.
[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;33593270]from a prepared speech. I can sugar coat things too[/quote]
So nothing anything anyone says can be trusted because everyone can prepare what they say?
Either way, his intentions aren't even really important. The fact of the matter is that he abolished one of the worst institutions known to man. If he did it to cripple the south, good for him.
[quote]catch all as in whatever falls through the cracks in the state.[/QUOTE]
Still implies that the Federal Government has more power.
[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;33593197]Again no, it was about states rights.
The United States isn't supposed to be a nation, it's supposed to be a union. it's right there in the name. As is the federal government is the top power and what they say goes no matter what the states say, but that's not how it's supposed to be. the federal government is meant to be a catch all law system that accounts for laws not in place by the individual states.[/QUOTE]
thank god we have a constitutional scholar in here that can tell us what our country is supposed to be
[QUOTE=thisispain;33593279]umm what do you have to prove this?[/QUOTE]
an education
[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;33593307]an education[/QUOTE]
So you pulled it out of your ass.
[QUOTE=mrcsb;33593298]thank god we have a constitutional scholar in here that can tell us what our country is supposed to be[/QUOTE]
We were a union right up until Lincoln went and fucked it up.
[QUOTE=thisispain;33593279]umm what do you have to prove this?
[editline]5th December 2011[/editline]
ultimately it's the word of a former united states president against yours. yawmwen posted something that shows he did think slavery was evil and simply insisting that he didn't believe that isn't very strong evidence.
unless you can read zombie minds[/QUOTE]
Well thankfully I don't have to. Although that would be a great power to have during the Zombie apocolypse. Actually probably not... I'm sure they're just thinking about brains.
This is a part of a letter he wrote to Horace Greenly, "my paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not either to save or destroy slavery, If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."
Again, it wasn't until after they decided to free slaves to damage the South did he start speaking out against slavery so fiercely. You can tell from the quote that he's trying to save the Union, not free slaves. Freeing slaves is just a tool he used to save the Union.
[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;33593316]We were a union right up until Lincoln went and fucked it up.[/QUOTE]
We still are a fucking Union. Lincoln preserved our Union you dunce. The Confederates wanted to create *hurr* A CONFEDERACY.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;33593312]So you pulled it out of your ass.[/QUOTE]
It's pretty common knowledge. You learn it all through middle and high school.
[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;33593316]We were a union right up until Lincoln went and fucked it up.[/QUOTE]
this is satire, right?
[QUOTE=Master X;33593329]It's pretty common knowledge. You learn it all through middle and high school.[/QUOTE]
What state?
[QUOTE=Master X;33593321]Again, it wasn't until after they decided to free slaves to damage the South did he start speaking out against slavery so fiercely.[/QUOTE]
but he spoke out against slavery before he was even president. and certainly you can't say all the other abolitionists were doing it just to spite the south. more historical revisionism.
[QUOTE=thisispain;33593345]but he spoke out against slavery before he was even president. and certainly you can't say all the other abolitionists were doing it just to spite the south. more historical revisionism.[/QUOTE]
And he continued to be against slavery after the war ended. So it isn't like his whole goal was to fuck up the south and then re-institute slavery.
[QUOTE=Master X;33593329]It's pretty common knowledge. You learn it all through middle and high school.[/QUOTE]
Then surely it shouldn't be too hard to cite some source.
[QUOTE=Master X;33593329]It's pretty common knowledge. You learn it all through middle and high school.[/QUOTE]
pff glad i didn't go to an american middle school then.
[QUOTE=Master X;33593329]It's pretty common knowledge. You learn it all through middle and high school.[/QUOTE]
surely it shouldn't be a challenge to find a citation for such "common knowledge"
p.s. a good percentage of what you learn in high school is complete bullshit. hope that helps
[QUOTE=yawmwen;33593335]What state?[/QUOTE]
North Carolina (which if I'm not mistaken was one of those states that was in the middle). I think NC and two other states were just used to fight on mostly. My education was not Bible belt influenced though if you're going to try and imply that. I had a damn good historian for a teacher in high school.
[QUOTE=mrcsb;33593362]p.s. a good percentage of what you learn in high school is complete bullshit. hope that helps[/QUOTE]
That's also a pretty baseless thing to say.
[QUOTE=thisispain;33593359]pff glad i didn't go to an american middle school then.[/QUOTE]
This surely wasn't taught in my middle school.
One thing I feel I should mention (aka I'm about to fuck up every anti-CSA argument ever), the Confederate states were set out to abolish slavery anyway.
[quote]Article I, Sec. 9. (I) The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; and Congress is required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same.
(2) Congress shall also have power to prohibit the introduction of slaves from any State not a member of, or Territory not belonging to, this Confederacy.
(3) The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.
(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.
(5) No capitation or other direct tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration hereinbefore directed to be taken.
(6) No tax or duty shall be laid on articles exported from any State, except by a vote of two-thirds of both Houses.
(7) No preference shall be given by any regulation of commerce or revenue to the ports of one State over those of another.
(8) No money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in consequence of appropriations made by law; and a regular statement and account of the receipts and expenditures of all public money shall be published from time to time.
(9) Congress shall appropriate no money from the Treasury except by a vote of two-thirds of both Houses, taken by yeas and nays, unless it be asked and estimated for by some one of the heads of departments and submitted to Congress by the President; or for the purpose of paying its own expenses and contingencies; or for the payment of claims against the Confederate States, the justice of which shall have been judicially declared by a tribunal for the investigation of claims against the Government, which it is hereby made the duty of Congress to establish.
(10) All bills appropriating money shall specify in Federal currency the exact amount of each appropriation and the purposes for which it is made; and Congress shall grant no extra compensation to any public contractor, officer, agent, or servant, after such contract shall have been made or such service rendered.
(11) No title of nobility shall be granted by the Confederate States; and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.
(12) Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
(13) A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
(14) No soldier shall, in time of peace, be quartered in any house without the consent of the owner; nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
(15) The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated; and no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized.
(16) No person shall be held to answer for a capital or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor be compelled, in any criminal case, to be a witness against himself; nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
(17) In all criminal prosecutions the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor; and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
(18) In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved; and no fact so tried by a jury shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the Confederacy, than according to the rules of common law.
(19) Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
(20) Every law, or resolution having the force of law, shall relate to but one subject, and that shall be expressed in the title. [/quote]
[QUOTE=Master X;33593368]North Carolina (which if I'm not mistaken was one of those states that was in the middle). I think NC and two other states were just used to fight on mostly. My education was not Bible belt influenced though if you're going to try and imply that. I had a damn good historian for a teacher in high school.[/QUOTE]
Well it's a matter of taking your word for it, can you seriously not find a source for your claim?
[QUOTE=Master X;33593368]I had a damn good historian for a teacher in high school.[/QUOTE]
try asking him for his sources, it would really help your argument right about now
[QUOTE=yawmwen;33593335]What state?[/QUOTE]
They teach that in the North that he wasn't initially antislavery until after tensions rose and he saw it as a tactic to weaken the confederacy
[QUOTE=Master X;33593368]North Carolina (which if I'm not mistaken was one of those states that was in the middle). I think NC and two other states were just used to fight on mostly. My education was not Bible belt influenced though if you're going to try and imply that. I had a damn good historian for a teacher in high school.[/QUOTE]
Well even in the bible belt we learn that Lincoln was an abolitionist and wanted to re-unify the country. He did't do it to fuck the south.
[QUOTE=OvB;33593292]
The flag was just a battle flag and to associate it with Slavery and Racism is wrong.[/QUOTE]
robert E lee was certainly not one of the main people behind the secession. simply because he was glad slavery was gone doesn't mean that the people who seceded and created that flag were not for slavery because they definitely were. again quoting the C.S. vice prez:
[quote]"cornerstone" of the new government "rest[ed] upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth".[/quote]
Another thing, the emancipation proclamation didn't even apply to union states, so honest abe only freed about 75% of slaves
[QUOTE=Master X;33593368]North Carolina (which if I'm not mistaken was one of those states that was in the middle). I think NC and two other states were just used to fight on mostly. My education was not Bible belt influenced though if you're going to try and imply that. I had a damn good historian for a teacher in high school.[/QUOTE]
Obviously not if he is teaching you Lincoln was only in it to fuck the South. North Carolina, by the way, was a state slave that was part of the confederacy, and is a southern state that is as victim to the "southern pride" bias that most southern states share.
So actually review your shit with another source.
[QUOTE=mrcsb;33593362]surely it shouldn't be a challenge to find a citation for such "common knowledge"
p.s. a good percentage of what you learn in high school is complete bullshit. hope that helps[/QUOTE]
You want MLA or what? I posted a quote from a letter he wrote above. You can Google that quote and get a million hits. Pick your source.
Perhaps I was too haste in saying that it's common knowledge. Me being from NC, they have a lot of the curriculum based around the civil war.
Also, I agree with that sentiment about what you learn being largely bullshit.
[QUOTE=Master X;33593399]Also, I agree with that sentiment about what you learn being largely bullshit.[/QUOTE]
An enormous generalization.
[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;33593372]One thing I feel I should mention (aka I'm about to fuck up every anti-CSA argument ever), the Confederate states were set out to abolish slavery anyway.[/QUOTE]
Where does it say that?
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