[QUOTE=carcarcargo;45254495]Yeah but primitive Marxism also existed before Christianity as well, but that stuffs mostly just very basic communal living when it was necessary[/QUOTE]
Primitive communism*
And you're exactly right in reference to that. But many Christian communist settlements were planned that way not out of necessity but because of doctrine or belief.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];45254309']No, not really. The concept of Christian communism came well before. For instance, the settlers at Jamestown practiced Christian communalism. The Pope himself just said that these concepts existed within the Bible, and it was the Bible, not the Manifesto, which inspired Christian communism for much of its existence. Marx simply provided an economic incentive for the ideology, and gave it structure beyond religious philosophy. The actual practice, like primitive communism, existed and occurred long before Marx was even born.[/QUOTE]
Utopia was the how to book on this, and it was published in 1516.
[QUOTE] The Pope is incorrect, though, in assuming that communism was based off of Christianity- this isn't really the case, because primitive communism existed long before the Bible. To give credit to Christianity for what history deserves is kinda simplifying it.[/QUOTE]
Do you understand about what the Pope is talking about? [B][I][U]When he talks about communism he talks about the philosophy behind it, the praxis philosohpy et cetera[/U][/I][/B], which has nothing to do with "primitive communism". [B][I][U]He's not talking about the idea of organizing the means of production.[/U][/I][/B]
Marx was also a philosopher, let's not forget he wrote an essay on Feuerbach and his alienation thesis.
EDIT: Damn, too early to remember what things meant in latin
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;45254595]Do you understand about what the Pope is talking about? [B][I][U]When he talks about communism he talks about the philosophy behind it, the praxis philosohpy et cetera[/U][/I][/B], which has nothing to do with "primitive communism". [B][I][U]He's not talking about the idea of organizing the means of production.[/U][/I][/B]
Marx was also a philosopher, let's not forget he wrote an essay on Feuerbach and his alienation thesis.
EDIT: Damn, too early to remember what things meant in latin[/QUOTE]
So then he's still wrong? I don't see your point. The philosophy and historical practice of communism precedes Christianity and Marx, but both granted further depth to it through different interpretations and methods.
has the entire fucking world always been capitalism vs communism jfc
Clearly I'm a communist.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;45255292]has the entire fucking world always been capitalism vs communism jfc[/QUOTE]
no, but it always has been about those who have much, fucking those who have little, and those who have little, trying to improve their situation somehow(either by killing/removing those who have much or/and becoming them), you could say capitalism and communism is just another page in that struggle.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;45255292]has the entire fucking world always been capitalism vs communism jfc[/QUOTE]
If you base them off their most famous books, Wealth of Nations for capitalism and the Communist Manifesto for communism (obviously), then they're both roughly only 200 years old in today's understanding of them.
But they both have had some form throughout the centuries, just not known as they are today.
I'm in the process of reading Plato's Laws and it's interesting how he basically describes a simplistic form of communism as the ideal state of society, but passes over it because of it being impossible to make work with human nature.
[QUOTE=sgman91;45260573]I'm in the process of reading Plato's Laws and it's interesting how he basically describes a simplistic form of communism as the ideal state of society, but passes over it because of it being impossible to make work with human nature.[/QUOTE]
Interestingly, Plato's communism is actually relatively close to what we today call communalism. But overall it is somewhat representative of communism.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];45260670']Interestingly, Plato's communism is actually relatively close to what we today call communalism. But overall it is somewhat representative of communism.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it was definitely not the same communism of today, but it held many of the same ideals.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;45255292]has the entire fucking world always been capitalism vs communism jfc[/QUOTE]
if you want to believe Marx, then entire world has always been primitive communism as a default state assaulted by ideologies representative of the interests of a ruling class.
The class changes over time with the ideology, so communism was overtaken by some other system, probably the slave society. So the slaveholding class ruled society and oppressed the slaves and non-slaveholders. Then they were overthrown by the aristocratic class, who then oppressed everyone else. Then they were overthrown by the lords, who were overthrown by the artisans, who were overthrown by the bourgeoisie, who he claims will be overthrown by the proletariat and finally there will no longer be a ruling class because the majority will rule, and communism will be reestablished. Tah-dah, dialectics explained in one paragraph.
It's not always been communism vs capitalism, but Marx argues that it's always been one class oppressing one or more other classes, a minority oppressing the majority, and that the minority is always overthrown by another minority. Roughly, though, it's always been one class on top and the working class, be it proles, serfs, slaves, peasants, or whathaveyou, at the bottom or near it. So according to Marx:
tl;dr
Yes.
I mean the big issue being is that if it's not one then it's the other in history. If you're not all working towards one mutual wealth, then obviously there are private parties benefiting. It's like night and day, as long as there has been society, there has been the concept of a group all working together to make shit happen, and a group who works for themselves.
[editline]1st July 2014[/editline]
at the most basic level, of course.
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