Legal Experts: Pence May Now Be Implicated in Obstruction of Justice - Polidicks

[QUOTE=-nesto-;52647829]Yup[/QUOTE] I highly doubt that

[quote]Would you accept the conclusion of this if Mueller does find something?[/quote] [quote=-nesto-]Yup[/quote] Cool. :toxx: it then. Or don't if you want your silence to speak volumes.

[QUOTE=kijji;52647856]I highly doubt that[/QUOTE] [url=https://i.imgur.com/2cqWQGt.png]Save the post somewhere. [/url] Not that I believe him.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52647811]Would you accept the conclusion of this if Mueller does find something?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=-nesto-;52647829]Yup[/QUOTE] Will you toxx it so the consequences will be undeniable if you deny the results? [editline]late[/editline] fuck me

God it is going to be Election 2.0. Though I doubt Trump will make it past this one.

[QUOTE=ironman17;52647534]Too damn right. Previously, the situation would still have been shitty since Pence would have taken the reins. After all, Vice Presidents succeed the President if the President is dead in office or otherwise unfit for duty. But if both of them are locked away or put to sleep, BEFORE Pence has the opportunity to choose a successor, then in theory that leaves the Oval Office vacant. If such an event were to occur, what would happen next? Would we get an emergency election where it's anybody's game? Would the ruling party scramble to find a new President? Or would the States end up under martial law until the 2020 election?[/QUOTE] What would happen is Congress would just keep scrolling down the mile-long list of succession until they found someone that wasn't in handcuffs. The way our government is designed there's a line ten people deep that can take the Oval Office if everyone ahead of them in line is NFG. They planned ahead when they wrote the constitution and set this whole show up, and pretty much nothing short of a direct, surprise nuclear hit right square on the White House would leave us without a successor to the office...and that's not something that can happen, we'd know of a launch so far in advance the president would have time to casually saunter out and hold a press conference on the way out the door. James Mattis is the first name on that list I'd trust. But there's no guarantee we'd see it go that far down the line of succession.

The potential for a trial or even convictions is great and all but presidential pardons are still a thing. Trump can wipe all this away and continue business as usual.

[quote]The potential for a trial or even convictions is great and all but presidential pardons are still a thing. Trump can wipe all this away and continue business as usual.[/quote] He can pardon the federal crimes of others. He can't pardon himself or state crimes. There are many avenues this could go in which Trump would be powerless to do much more than fight against the charges with money and words.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52647944]He can pardon the federal crimes of others. He can't pardon himself or state crimes. There are many avenues this could go in which Trump would be powerless to do much more than fight against the charges with money and words.[/QUOTE] He cant pardon himself unless hes being impeached for a crime. He cant pardon for state crimes, but obstruction of justice in a federal case probably isn't a state crime. Honestly Trump still has the power here unless congress grows some balls and actually follows through with an impeachment.

[quote]Honestly Trump still has the power here unless congress grows some balls and actually follows through with an impeachment.[/quote] You presume there are no financial crimes here. There is plenty of evidence to suggest those are being investigated and pursued. Financial crime would be a thing that, for instance, Trump would not be able to pardon. If members of his campaign staff were soliciting illegal donations from Russia that implicates them as well. [quote]He cant pardon himself unless hes being impeached for a crime[/quote] Though it is a matter of constitutional lawyeral debate - there exists an argument that's oft repeated that he couldn't pardon himself even if he was being impeached as it would be him serving as (Edit: Fixed) the judge in his own case*. It's a fundamental rule of our justice system that no one may be allowed to serve as the judge in their own case.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52648079]You presume there are no financial crimes here. There is plenty of evidence to suggest those are being investigated and pursued. Financial crime would be a thing that, for instance, Trump would not be able to pardon. If members of his campaign staff were soliciting illegal donations from Russia that implicates them as well. Though it is a matter of constitutional lawyeral debate - there exists an argument that's oft repeated that he couldn't pardon himself even if he was being impeached as it would be him serving as (Edit: Fixed) the judge in his own case* - which would violate one of the core precepts at the heart of our criminal justice system's philosophical origins.[/QUOTE] Financial crimes cant be a federal crime? What very little constitutional writing exists on pardons and presidential commuting of crimes, it mentions no where what specific type of crime can't be pardoned, aside from state crimes and impeachment. Trump could not pardon himself of he was in the process of impeachment, but if he were convicted of crimes relating to the Russia investigation, then he could certainly pardon himself. Theres no precedent currently set on a president pardoning himself, so unless it somehow goes to the supreme court, Trump will get off scott free.

[quote]Financial crimes cant be a federal crime?[/quote] Could be - but they can also be brought by the State, which is what Mueller already appears to be setting up. [quote]it mentions no where what specific type of crime can't be pardoned, aside from state crimes and impeachment.[/quote] Which is exactly what it would be if the NY AG brought financial crimes against the President of the United States: a state crime. [quote]if he were convicted of crimes relating to the Russia investigation, then he could certainly pardon himself.[/quote] Again, that's a matter of spirited constitutional debate. There are many, many, constitutional scholars who would say that Trump pardoning himself goes against the very spirit and legal heart of law-with-a-capital-L. He would be serving as his own judge at the very [I]least[/I] which is about the least lawful thing I could think a person could do in our criminal justice system. You know those throwaway hollywood movie lines about 'serving as judge, jury, and executioner'? Trump would literally be his own Judge, Jury, and Executioner if he pardoned himself. [quote] unless it somehow goes to the supreme court, Trump will get off scott free.[/quote] If Trump does that, you can bet your arse that it will not only [I]immediately[/I] go to the SCOTUS but that they will convene an emergency session that night if not that [B]hour[/B] and put whatever other matters aside until they'd hashed out the constitutionality of his declaration because he's just caused the largest constitutional crisis this country has yet seen in that singular act. The implication that the President can pardon himself of any and all crimes that do not rise from the State (or perhaps even from the state if he so dares to trod on even that ground) would serve as the foundation for a literal dictatorship.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52647876]Cool. :toxx: it then. Or don't if you want your silence to speak volumes.[/QUOTE] What does toxx it even mean? And I'm in the same boat with nesto. I'll accept the outcome of the investigation no matter what. But is getting to be pretty pathetic to be honest. The best analogy I can think with everyone getting over excited over these "revelations" is like a dog getting over excited whenever the front door opens because it thinks its going on a walk but never actually does.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52648109]Financial crimes cant be a federal crime? What very little constitutional writing exists on pardons and presidential commuting of crimes, it mentions no where what specific type of crime can't be pardoned, aside from state crimes and impeachment. [B]Trump could not pardon himself of he was in the process of impeachment, but if he were convicted of crimes relating to the Russia investigation, then he could certainly pardon himself. Theres no precedent currently set on a president pardoning himself, so unless it somehow goes to the supreme court, Trump will get off scott free.[/B][/QUOTE] There's a wrinkle with this logic: The precedent is not strongly tested, but it is generally assumed that the sitting President is unassailable by [I]criminal[/I] charges, as this would give the Judiciary undue control over the Executive. As such, Trump is unlikely to face any criminal indictments while he is in the Oval Office. Impeachment, however, is a [I]political[/I] trial and sentence, and it supplants criminality for enacting punishments on a sitting President. Once Trump is out of office, he is a normal civilian with respect to legal immunity and he can be charged for everything he is allegedly liable for that has not passed its statute of limitations -- and he can't pardon himself after he leaves office. [I]His successor could,[/I] however, and that's the risk after Trump leaves office whether it's early or in preparation for inauguration.

[quote]What does toxx it even mean? And I'm in the same boat with nesto. I'll accept the outcome of the investigation no matter what.[/quote] It means that you accept that if you do not hold to whatever you wrote in your Toxx (or if what you wrote in your Toxx does not come to pass) that you [I]will[/I] be banned from the forums permanently. Unless you put in an escape clause, wherein you have to do something entertaining or degrading for the mods to appeal your ban - which the mods are further in their rights to ignore. In other words: You bet your account on it - and it's a bet you can't take back. That said, will you :toxx:? If you're so absolutely sure that you'll accept the results of this investigation you shouldn't have any trouble doing so and you lose nothing. You don't even need to write an escape clause - because you won't need it, right?

The toxx could be simplified to "If I deny the results of the Mueller investigation, ban me". And no that's not me toxxing, I'm not the one with a credibility problem.

If I deny the results of the Mueller investigation, ban me. :toxx: [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Toxx: permaban me if I deny the validity of Meuller investigation into Trump admin. No escape." - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]

I applaud you for having the courage of your convictions, MrRalgoman; I hope only that your convictions do not fail you. My hat's off to you, sir/ma'am.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52648198]I applaud you for having the courage of your convictions, MrRalgoman; I hope only that your convictions do not fail you. My hat's off to you, sir/ma'am.[/QUOTE] How about you? Will you accept that Trump is not guilty if he is found not guilty?

[quote]Will you accept that Trump is not guilty if he is found not guilty?[/quote] Nope. He's already caused plenty of problems, terrors, and ruined plenty of international and intelligence relationships to be guilty of more than a few things in my book. That would mean denying all that I know presently about Trump, regardless of whether he's found guilty of russian collusion, whether he's found guilty of financial crimes, whether he's found guilty of obstruction of justice (which, I mean, good luck getting a not guilty on that one)...

[QUOTE=-nesto-;52647682]Its gonna be election night 2.0 if Mueller doesn't find anything.[/QUOTE] Rightfully so, anybody with half a brain can reasonably conclude the current administration is guilty as sin. If they're not brought to task for it, it doesn't mean they didn't do anything, it means our justice system is completely neutered and worthless. Anybody who thinks otherwise has their head up their ass.

[QUOTE=-nesto-;52647682]Its gonna be election night 2.0 if Mueller doesn't find anything.[/QUOTE] One does not impanel a grand jury on nothing.

[QUOTE=MrRalgoman;52648204]How about you? Will you accept that Trump is not guilty if he is found not guilty?[/QUOTE] Depends what he's exonerated of. If the charge is election fraud by working with a hostile government then sure, I'll accept that. I won't accept it if he's exonerated of crimes against humanity though (along with the rest of his racist anti-american cabinet)

[QUOTE=Del91;52647553]I think the speaker of the house is next in line. [editline]4th September 2017[/editline] fuck my merge[/QUOTE] Ech. That would be Paul Ryan IIRC, though isn't there a slim chance he can get dragged into this shit-storm, too? [QUOTE=Cone;52647628]Pence and Ryan might see justice, albeit like 30 years from now when they've ceased to be relevant. Trump is an exceedingly crappy old butterball who may or may not have brain damage though so he can just go for time-outs[/QUOTE] Oh, fucking [I]ew[/I]. Imagine if Trump got out of it because it turns out he had an impairment this whole time.

[QUOTE=Zero-Point;52649040]Ech. That would be Paul Ryan IIRC, though isn't there a slim chance he can get dragged into this shit-storm, too? Oh, fucking [I]ew[/I]. Imagine if Trump got out of it because it turns out he had an impairment this whole time.[/QUOTE] Imagine if they find that Trump's personal physician lied on his letter regarding Trump's health. What if he was severely demented as well as suffering from intense Alzheimers? :v: and people voted him in

[QUOTE=Quark:;52649137]Imagine if they find that Trump's personal physician lied on his letter regarding Trump's health. What if he was severely demented as well as suffering from intense Alzheimers? :v: and people voted him in[/QUOTE] What do you mean "if"? What kind of medical assessment is "his blood pressure is astonishingly excellent"? HIPPA protects the President just as much as an average citizen but I'm confident that he's medically unfit for office.

I'd rather have Pence go down before Trump honestly. Trump is an idiot nut job, but at least he's an idiot. Pence is a smart nutjob, and that is much more dangerous. The last thing we need is for Trump to go down and have him become president, so either take Pence down first or knock them both off at the same time.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;52658343]I'd rather have Pence go down before Trump honestly. Trump is an idiot nut job, but at least he's an idiot. Pence is a smart nutjob, and that is much more dangerous. The last thing we need is for Trump to go down and have him become president, so either take Pence down first or knock them both off at the same time.[/QUOTE] a president pence would be an ineffectual lame duck, a president pence whom is implicated partially in the crimes of trump would be on extremely thin ice. this all assumes that a democrat majority happens as retribution as well

[QUOTE=Sableye;52658461]a president pence would be an ineffectual lame duck, a president pence whom is implicated partially in the crimes of trump would be on extremely thin ice. this all assumes that a democrat majority happens as retribution as well[/QUOTE] I remember when I said Trump would be a lame duck, leashed by a saner Congress...

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;52658343]I'd rather have Pence go down before Trump honestly. Trump is an idiot nut job, but at least he's an idiot. Pence is a smart nutjob, and that is much more dangerous. The last thing we need is for Trump to go down and have him become president, so either take Pence down first or knock them both off at the same time.[/QUOTE] Pence's policy is still coming through either way, but right now it is coming on the back of Trump's lunacy. I would hate every minute of a Pence presidency, and would undoubtedly find the vast majority of his policy to be destructive and shortsighted at best, but at least if Trump were impeached I could table the fear that that glass-jawed little brat of a president was no longer pushing us towards the greatest constitutional crisis in US history. Pence is a dirtbag, but he's a dirtbag who respects the office and plays by the rules.