Just to give you guys an idea of Israel's motives.
[img]http://www.sott.net/image/image/9591/israel-palestine_map.jpg[/img]
All I know is that if Israel returning to 1967 borders is suggested, then you are an anti-semite.
[QUOTE=lolwutdude]Wouldn't you be angry as hell when a country bombs your school?[/QUOTE]
only if i was a terrorist
[QUOTE=hayatli7]Are you serious? Ever heard of empathy?
EDIT: Or are saying that just to sound like one of those bad asses who don't care?[/QUOTE]
No I'm not serious, that wouldn't really solve a lot.
What I really think is that the disputed land should be split in two, each half being given to 1 of the sides.
[QUOTE=dennis232]All I know is that if Israel returning to 1967 borders is suggested, then you are an anti-semite.[/QUOTE]
Best post
The west bank border after the wall is finished:
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Westbank_barrier.png[/img]
So it's more than the 2000 picture but less than the 1967 picture.
Green line Vs. Wall
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/BarrierMay2005.png[/img]
Ah, but it's a [b]WALL[/b].
Look at the crooked border. People will get split up and homes will be bulldozed.
[QUOTE=CheddarSex]What I really think is that the disputed land should be split in two, each half being given to 1 of the sides.[/QUOTE]
They did. Until Israel decided to shit all over it.
Israel bombed the school because they were people firing mortars in it.
They already did something like that a week ago
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXXUOs27lI[/media]
[QUOTE=Stickocide]Do you really think repeatedly bombing people, killing piles of civilians as well as militants, including UN sponsored schools, is going to make people in Palestine more or less likely to support militants?
And also, I don't think that people 'don't give a shit' when innocent Israelis get killed. I thinks it's terrible when an innocent Israeli gets killed, and I don't know anyone who wouldn't feel the same.[/QUOTE]
I don't think they are treating them as terrorists anymore.
Since Gaza now pretty much belongs to them, they have altered their military doctrine to respond to attacks on their country with conventional military tactics.
Given the nature of Hamas (They frequently use Hospitals and schools as bases) I imagine there was good intel that those schools were being employed for something other than strictly educational purposes.
Which really makes sense actually. If we take out all the lovely little pet names we have for each side and rephrase it, it makes a lot more sense:
Gaza launches rocket attacks on Israeli Civilians inside Israel.
Israel initiates a military response and attacks Gaza. Seeing as Gaza lacks any major AA or ground defenses, Israel bypasses the part where they hit military installations and move directly to civilian targets. Which is exactly how a standard military operation works. Kill soldiers until you can't find any or they surrender. If you run out of soldiers and they still fight, then kill civilians until they surrender.
Hamas IS the government, they seized it some time ago from Fatah. Therefore they are no longer terrorists or guerrilla fighters, but the actual military arm of a state/province/country. Thereby they made an official attack on Israel.
I do have a question though, I'm poking around but I've yet to really find a good answer.
Why is it that Hamas has so much support? From everything I've read they are dicks even to their supporters and suppress freedom of the press/speech and abduct and kill members of any other religious faction. Fatah seemed to desire a much more...not necessarily peaceful, but have more realistic goals and based on what I'm seeing, tended to be more guerrillas rather than terrorists when they did choose to attack. To the point where they aren't considered terrorists by any government.
It's terrible that these people are dying, but this has become a conventional military conflict, albeit a very one sided one. With the Gaza strip no longer under official Israeli control, they are no longer people they have to protect and are instead foreign citizens launching attacks against their citizens. Like any half way decent government, they are most concerned about the lives of their own citizens. So when they get hit with rockets, Israel's only real choice is to respond with major military action. Because again, in the eyes of Israel, preserving Israelis lives is their primary goal.
As was stated earlier, the exact same thing would occur if Cuba started launching missiles at the US.
Or if Ireland (the republic, not northern) started launching missiles into the UK proper. Actually I'm not real sure what would happen there, but it is the best parallel I could come up with for our British friends.
[QUOTE=dennis232]All I know is that if Israel returning to 1967 borders is suggested, then you are an anti-semite.[/QUOTE]
Palestinians are semites. Infact most Israeli's probably aren't even semites at all, they are European.
[QUOTE=madjawa]Israel bombed the school because they were people firing mortars in it.
They already did something like that a week ago[/QUOTE]
They say they were firing mortars or rockets from near the school, and I believe them. But that still gives them absolutely no right to drop bombs on a school while there are still kids in it.
The chances of the munitions fired from the school a have a ridiculously low chance of actually killing anyone. How does afew stray and random bombs fired in the general direction of Israeli towns justify annihalating a school while there are still children in it?
Please think about want your country is doing, and really ask yourself, truthfully if you think what it is doing is ok. You live in a free country, you can voice your opinion, make a sign protest.
I would like to think that Israeli citizens are better than the Israeli government.
[QUOTE=GunFox]I don't think they are treating them as terrorists anymore.
Since Gaza now pretty much belongs to them, they have altered their military doctrine to respond to attacks on their country with conventional military tactics.
Given the nature of Hamas (They frequently use Hospitals and schools as bases) I imagine there was good intel that those schools were being employed for something other than strictly educational purposes.
Which really makes sense actually. If we take out all the lovely little pet names we have for each side and rephrase it, it makes a lot more sense:
Gaza launches rocket attacks on Israeli Civilians inside Israel.
Israel initiates a military response and attacks Gaza. Seeing as Gaza lacks any major AA or ground defenses, Israel bypasses the part where they hit military installations and move directly to civilian targets. Which is exactly how a standard military operation works. Kill soldiers until you can't find any or they surrender. If you run out of soldiers and they still fight, then kill civilians until they surrender.
Hamas IS the government, they seized it some time ago from Fatah. Therefore they are no longer terrorists or guerrilla fighters, but the actual military arm of a state/province/country. Thereby they made an official attack on Israel.
I do have a question though, I'm poking around but I've yet to really find a good answer.
Why is it that Hamas has so much support? From everything I've read they are dicks even to their supporters and suppress freedom of the press/speech and abduct and kill members of any other religious faction. Fatah seemed to desire a much more...not necessarily peaceful, but have more realistic goals and based on what I'm seeing, tended to be more guerrillas rather than terrorists when they did choose to attack. To the point where they aren't considered terrorists by any government.
It's terrible that these people are dying, but this has become a conventional military conflict, albeit a very one sided one. With the Gaza strip no longer under official Israeli control, they are no longer people they have to protect and are instead foreign citizens launching attacks against their citizens. Like any half way decent government, they are most concerned about the lives of their own citizens. So when they get hit with rockets, Israel's only real choice is to respond with major military action. Because again, in the eyes of Israel, preserving Israelis lives is their primary goal.
As was stated earlier, the exact same thing would occur if Cuba started launching missiles at the US.
Or if Ireland (the republic, not northern) started launching missiles into the UK proper. Actually I'm not real sure what would happen there, but it is the best parallel I could come up with for our British friends.[/QUOTE]
Pretty sure we wouldn't start shelling schools.
[quote]Israel initiates a military response and attacks Gaza. Seeing as Gaza lacks any major AA or ground defenses, Israel bypasses the part where they hit military installations and move directly to civilian targets. Which is exactly how a standard military operation works. Kill soldiers until you can't find any or they surrender. If you run out of soldiers and they still fight, then kill civilians until they surrender. [/quote]
Are you honestly trying to justify large loss of life and the shelling of densely populated civilian areas because that's what standard military operation is? I can understand where you're coming from, I understand why Israel is doing it, but I sure as hell can't see a way to use it as justification.
[quote]Given the nature of Hamas (They frequently use Hospitals and schools as bases) I imagine there was good intel that those schools were being employed for something other than strictly educational purposes.[/quote]
Never understood this justification either. Hey look that terrorist is using a few children who can't understand the situation as cover, welp guess we better drop those bombs guys. Every time an attack on a civilian area, or a school happens, I hear the justification of Hamas hiding within those positions and using innocents as shields.
To me, that's not really justifying taking out the innocents to get to Hamas.
[QUOTE=GunFox]
Israel initiates a military response and attacks Gaza. Seeing as Gaza lacks any major AA or ground defenses, Israel bypasses the part where they hit military installations and move directly to civilian targets. Which is exactly how a standard military operation works. Kill soldiers until you can't find any or they surrender. If you run out of soldiers and they still fight, then kill civilians until they surrender.
[/QUOTE]
Uhuh... I really never pegged you as uneducated.
The more you kill civilians, the more organizations like hamas have a right to exist and the more strengthened they become, Israel can continue the pound the shit out of palestine and kill thousands, you aren't going to suppress an already suppressed people. Also, that is hardly a "standard military operation"
[QUOTE=GunFox]
Hamas IS the government, they seized it some time ago from Fatah.
[/QUOTE]
Acutally they were democratically elected.
[QUOTE=GunFox]
Why is it that Hamas has so much support? From everything I've read they are dicks even to their supporters and suppress freedom of the press/speech and abduct and kill members of any other religious faction. [/quote]
The Palestinian people were sick of the siege, and didn't realise what dicks Hamas were.
[QUOTE=GunFox]
Or if Ireland (the republic, not northern) started launching missiles into the UK proper. Actually I'm not real sure what would happen there, but it is the best parallel I could come up with for our British friends.[/QUOTE]
They would be fucking riots in the streets if we started causing massive civilian casualties in Ireland.
That, and our method would be FUCKLOADS better than dropping huge amounts of ordnance on population centers in the hopes of killing militants.
[b]Edit:[/b]
There are rules in modern warfare regarding civilians.
In a modern war you would destroy the military, then sieze the government.
Not kill as many civilians as you can until the enemy can't fight anymore. This isn't WW2 and we don't rely on wartime economies.
Depending on your views this wasn't started by Hamas firing rockets into Israel. The rocket attacks only really got started when Israel began it's military campaign anyway.
My view is that the actions of Hamas are a response to the continued siege of Gaza.
I'm not religious though, so my views might seem stupid to others, in the same way that Zionists seem stupid to me.
[QUOTE=KillerTV]Pretty sure we wouldn't start shelling schools.[/quote]
If we spotted cuban artillery firing on civilian targets in Florida you are damn skippy we'd NAPALM that school.
[quote]Are you honestly trying to justify large loss of life and the shelling of densely populated civilian areas because that's what standard military operation is? I can understand where you're coming from, I understand why Israel is doing it, but I sure as hell can't see a way to use it as justification.[/quote]
What shelling? I've only seen reports of Air attacks from Israel. Not that I'm saying they aren't using artillery to hit targets, but from what I've read Israel is using largely directed fighter attacks equipped with bombs. Though if you have evidence to the contrary, I will gladly take that back.
Hamas is the one using the mortars and unguided rockets.
[quote]Never understood this justification either. Hey look that terrorist is using a few children who can't understand the situation as cover, welp guess we better drop those bombs guys. Every time an attack on a civilian area, or a school happens, I hear the justification of Hamas hiding within those positions and using innocents as shields.
To me, that's not really justifying taking out the innocents to get to Hamas.[/QUOTE]
The ultimate goal is to prove that using innocents as shields just gets more people killed. If you stop every time they scurry into a hospital or a school, then they will be free to drop mortars or rockets on Israelis all day long.
Here is the thing: Israel cares about Israeli lives. They are infinitely more important to them than occupants of the Gaza strip. Rightfully so, it is the Israeli government's JOB to protect its citizens by any means necessary. The same applies to both the UK and US governments.
It is horrible beyond words that children (and other innocents) are dying in these attacks, but the Israeli government wouldn't be doing its job if it allowed its own people to die when they could do something to stop it.
Hamas loves to attack from hospitals and schools because it KNOWS there will be terrible PR backfire. THEY are the ones pulling them into this conflict. Not the other way around.
But here, let me ask you this:
You are the Israeli government. Gaza militants launch rockets at your citizens. You WATCH this occur from aerial drones. You know they are there. You know they are killing your people.
What do you do? What is your response?
You can't really send in commandos. Israelis are hardcore, but if they are captured, they will continue to shell your people AND they have gained collateral to use against you in negotiations. Assuming their helicopter isn't cut right out of the sky on the way in.
Mechanized ground forces supported by armored cavalry may take days to safely reach the target. And they run the risk of being pincered and cut off from reinforcements. Again the enemy winds up with hostages, and potentially even gains tanks. And still, more shells head your way. Killing YOUR civilians.
Your final option is of course simply to bomb the school. Virtually zero chance of any losses on your side and you are nearly assured that you will neutralize the location as an effective firebase. Kids aren't going to come back once it has been bombed. Furthermore you can bomb the school outside of when school is in session. Which would prevent virtually all civilian casualties on the opposing side and prevent the children, or the fireteams from returning.
Dudes get this.
The Israeli government is a sham.
The whole country is run by JEWS!
The banks, the post office, the police, everything!
It's shocking, I know.
[url="http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/History+of+Israel/HISTORY-%20The%20State%20of%20Israel"]Read[/url] [url="http://www.pmo.gov.il/PMOEng/Government/Panel/"]more.[/url]
[QUOTE=SeamanStains]Acutally they were democratically elected.[/quote]
Most Government's of the world refuse to accept that HAMAS was democratically elected without any fraud.
[QUOTE=SeamanStains]
Not kill as many civilians as you can until the enemy can't fight anymore. This isn't WW2 and we don't rely on wartime economies.
[/QUOTE]
Not to quote fallout, but war never changes. The goals are always the same. Make the other side lose.
There are rules to battle. Don't shoot medics, don't execute hostages, don't use napalm, don't use biological weapons...
But there are no rules to war.
[QUOTE=Calmoo]Just to give you guys an idea of Israel's motives.
[img]http://www.sott.net/image/image/9591/israel-palestine_map.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
The Palestinian Territory isn't that reduced.
[QUOTE=GunFox]
But there are no rules to war.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that it's pretty fucked up.
Instead of dropping bombs on an entire school full of children how about they evacuate the towns that are being shelled instead. I'm sure if you actually asked the inhabitants.
"What would you prefer? The inconvenience of having to leave your home for afew days so you are safe, or would you like the convenience of staying at your home under sporadic rocket fire, at the cost of afew douzen Palestinian children?"
[b]Edit:[/b]
Israel needs to give back some land, including the West Bank. Have the boarders to Gaza and the West Bank touching for just enough to drop a giant 4 way UN checkpoint between the 2 areas of Palestine and the 2 areas of Israel.
Then maybe, eventually some peace can be restored to the region and maybe the resentment will decrease over time.
[QUOTE=doggunn]The Palestinian Territory isn't that reduced.[/QUOTE]
Feel free to fix the maps in photoshop if you like
[QUOTE=TH89]Feel free to fix the maps in photoshop if you like[/QUOTE]
Look at toxicpiano's image.
[QUOTE=GunFox]If we spotted cuban artillery firing on civilian targets in Florida you are damn skippy we'd NAPALM that school.
What shelling? I've only seen reports of Air attacks from Israel. Not that I'm saying they aren't using artillery to hit targets, but from what I've read Israel is using largely directed fighter attacks equipped with bombs. Though if you have evidence to the contrary, I will gladly take that back.
Hamas is the one using the mortars and unguided rockets.
The ultimate goal is to prove that using innocents as shields just gets more people killed. If you stop every time they scurry into a hospital or a school, then they will be free to drop mortars or rockets on Israelis all day long.
Here is the thing: Israel cares about Israeli lives. They are infinitely more important to them than occupants of the Gaza strip. Rightfully so, it is the Israeli government's JOB to protect its citizens by any means necessary. The same applies to both the UK and US governments.
It is horrible beyond words that children (and other innocents) are dying in these attacks, but the Israeli government wouldn't be doing its job if it allowed its own people to die when they could do something to stop it.
Hamas loves to attack from hospitals and schools because it KNOWS there will be terrible PR backfire. THEY are the ones pulling them into this conflict. Not the other way around.
But here, let me ask you this:
You are the Israeli government. Gaza militants launch rockets at your citizens. You WATCH this occur from aerial drones. You know they are there. You know they are killing your people.
What do you do? What is your response?
You can't really send in commandos. Israelis are hardcore, but if they are captured, they will continue to shell your people AND they have gained collateral to use against you in negotiations. Assuming their helicopter isn't cut right out of the sky on the way in.
Mechanized ground forces supported by armored cavalry may take days to safely reach the target. And they run the risk of being pincered and cut off from reinforcements. Again the enemy winds up with hostages, and potentially even gains tanks. And still, more shells head your way. Killing YOUR civilians.
Your final option is of course simply to bomb the school. Virtually zero chance of any losses on your side and you are nearly assured that you will neutralize the location as an effective firebase. Kids aren't going to come back once it has been bombed. Furthermore you can bomb the school outside of when school is in session. Which would prevent virtually all civilian casualties on the opposing side and prevent the children, or the fireteams from returning.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7814054.stm[/url]
^ The school shelling article.
As for what I'd do, I'd send in mechanized Infantry with an emphasis on minimising civilian casualties. I know it's not an easy thing to do, and in reality there would be massive flaws with my approach. The backlash and support this garners for Hamas is only doing the same amount of damage as direct loss of life though,
I wouldn't be good in charge of the military, I couldn't make the decision to shell a populated school to hit militants, but I do understand the reasoning behind it. If I look from a viewpoint that is purely based on achieving my objective, then minimising the risk to my own citizens while neutralizing threats seems like the best course of action. However, innocent men, women, and children are involved which I can't see how anyone can simply brush off, or pay no attention to.
No matter the situation though, whether it be the UK military flattening a northern Irish school in response, a US military napalming a Cuban school, or the Israeli military shelling a Palestinian school I would expect the exact same amount of backlash and would condemn it just as much.
[QUOTE=KillerTV][url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7814054.stm[/url]
^ The school shelling article.
As for what I'd do, I'd send in mechanized Infantry with an emphasis on minimising civilian casualties. I know it's not an easy thing to do, and in reality there would be massive flaws with my approach. The backlash and support this garners for Hamas is only doing the same amount of damage as direct loss of life though,
I wouldn't be good in charge of the military, I couldn't make the decision to shell a populated school to hit militants, but I do understand the reasoning behind it. If I look from a viewpoint that is purely based on achieving my objective, then minimising the risk to my own citizens while neutralizing threats seems like the best course of action. However, innocent men, women, and children are involved which I can't see how anyone can simply brush off, or pay no attention to.
No matter the situation though, whether it be the UK military flattening a northern Irish school in response, a US military napalming a Cuban school, or the Israeli military shelling a Palestinian school I would expect the exact same amount of backlash and would condemn it just as much.[/QUOTE]
Oh so they are hitting them with shells. Well that just seems unnecessary. At least use planes. Thanks for the link, I retract my earlier statement. :)
But yeah, I don't blame anyone for getting angry or condemning the action. I could easily swing the other way on the topic, but I just can't come up with any other solution.
Which really is sorta my stance on most of this conflict. I keep trying to come up with better solutions from the Israeli perspective and I keep finding that they have taken the logical response.
A cold and calculated response, but often comparatively better than their other options.
[QUOTE=GunFox]Oh so they are hitting them with shells. Well that just seems unnecessary. At least use planes. Thanks for the link, I retract my earlier statement. :)
But yeah, I don't blame anyone for getting angry or condemning the action. I could easily swing the other way on the topic, but I just can't come up with any other solution.
Which really is sorta my stance on most of this conflict. I keep trying to come up with better solutions from the Israeli perspective and I keep finding that they have taken the logical response.
A cold and calculated response, but often comparatively better than their other options.[/QUOTE]
Watch this before continuing please. That goes for all of you in this thread too I suppose.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw9cv2RKUTs[/media]
[QUOTE=doggunn]The Palestinian Territory isn't that reduced.[/QUOTE]
This comment has reaffirmed my belief that you have no clue what you're talking about.
[QUOTE=doggunn]Look at toxicpiano's image.[/QUOTE]
Which is the same map just enlarged.
[QUOTE=lazyguy]Dudes get this.
The Israeli government is a sham.
The whole country is run by JEWS!
The banks, the post office, the police, everything!
It's shocking, I know.
[url="http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/History+of+Israel/HISTORY-%20The%20State%20of%20Israel"]Read[/url] [url="http://www.pmo.gov.il/PMOEng/Government/Panel/"]more.[/url][/QUOTE]
GOD DAMN THIS IS SOME KIND OF JEWISH NWO CONSPIRACY!!
[QUOTE=SeamanStains]Of course the UN condemns it. How about some fucking action for once.[/QUOTE]
It's the UN, their buisness is not taking care of any.
[QUOTE=GunFox]Which is exactly how a standard military operation works. Kill soldiers until you can't find any or they surrender. If you run out of soldiers and they still fight, then kill civilians until they surrender.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=GunFox]The ultimate goal is to prove that using innocents as shields just gets more people killed. If you stop every time they scurry into a hospital or a school, then they will be free to drop mortars or rockets on Israelis all day long.[/QUOTE]
Someone who understands warfare? On FP? Pinch me, I must be dreaming.
If you think GunFox understands warfare then you need to be slapped. My brother who has served 2 tours of duty in Iraq actually got mad after reading his comments because they have no logical backing at all.
[QUOTE=Rofl my Waff]This comment has reaffirmed my belief that you have no clue what you're talking about.[/QUOTE]
Unlike you, I've been to Israel, and I've been to the wall.
[QUOTE=Rofl my Waff]Which is the same map just enlarged.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps you should take a look at the image. I was talking about the wall. And Israel don't have any of their population in that "2000 West Bank Israeli controlled area".
[b]Edit:[/b]
Fuck it, I can't stand Rof[U][I][U][I][I][U][I][U][I][U][I][U][I][U][I][U][/U][/I][/U][/I][/U][/I][/U][/I][/U][/I][/U][/I][/I][/U][/I][/U]l my Waff.
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