[QUOTE=Rofl my Waff;13135661]Go away, you just read a single comment in a 65 page thread and came to a single conclusion, and Pvt, ryan is far from an angsty teenager.
At least the people debating now have been here for more than 1 or 2 posts.
Case reopened.[/QUOTE]
How has him not being here for long change the fact that he is completely fucking right?
It's far from the truth, every post made that demostrated peace you dismissed as void,
every post made that demostrated hate in other religions you dismissed as invalid.
Fuck, you have no clue what you're talking about. Seriously, you make outrageous presumptions that even doggunn was bothered by!
Go read the fucking book before you talk. This is exactly mimicing the book inherit the wind, when everyone hated darwin's book of evolution based off of bigoted thoughts, but no one bothered to read it. I did a research paper on religion, which I know isn't that big of a deal, but have personally studied the quran closer than you. You're stereotypes mean jack shit.
[QUOTE=Karskin;13135696]How has him not being here for long change the fact that he is completely fucking right?[/QUOTE]
He hasn't read any comments on the opposing view?
[QUOTE=Karskin;13135682]I'm a bigot for pointing out the truth? Also yes, that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying. Doesn't make me a bigot, just makes me smart.[/QUOTE]
Once you get to the point when you say a certain religion is designed to teach hate, it's a little too far - when it's obvious that they're not.
[QUOTE=Rofl my Waff;13135756]He hasn't read any comments on the opposing view?[/QUOTE]
Oh but I have non believer!
You see I can summerize them all into one brilliant statement that even the Roman aristocrats of the old Forums in Rome herself would ponder the very brilliance of,
"RRRRRRRRRRAWWGGWARGAFGAJDFADFH FUCKING GOD DAMN STUPID BIGOTS KILLLING AS MANY CIVILIANS AS THEY CAN FIND FUCKFCKFUCKFUCKING!! ISRAEL IS BAD IF YOU DONT AGREE YOUR OBVIOUSLY STUPID, BIASED AND IGNORANT."
Tears flow from my ducts.
[QUOTE=Rofl my Waff;13135748]It's far from the truth, every post made that demostrated peace you dismissed as void,
every post made that demostrated hate in other religions you dismissed as invalid.
Fuck, you have no clue what you're talking about. Seriously, you make outrageous presumptions that even doggunn was bothered by!
Go read the fucking book before you talk. This is exactly mimicing the book inherit the wind, when everyone hated darwin's book of evolution based off of bigoted thoughts, but no one bothered to read it. I did a research paper on religion, which I know isn't that big of a deal, but have personally studied the quran closer than you. You're stereotypes mean jack shit.[/QUOTE]
How do you know you've studied the Quran closer than me, that's quite a shot in the dark there.
[QUOTE=doggunn;13135768]Once you get to the point when you say a certain religion is designed to teach hate, it's a little too far - when it's obvious that they're not.[/QUOTE]
How is it obvious? You may have missed those 2 blocks of texts I posted.
[QUOTE=Mexinugget03;13135802]Oh but I have non believer!
You see I can summerize them all into one brilliant statement that even the Roman aristocrats of the old Forums in Rome herself would ponder the very brilliance of,
"RRRRRRRRRRAWWGGWARGAFGAJDFADFH FUCKING GOD DAMN STUPID BIGOTS KILLLING AS MANY CIVILIANS AS THEY CAN FIND FUCKFCKFUCKFUCKING!! ISRAEL IS BAD IF YOU DONT AGREE YOUR OBVIOUSLY STUPID, BIASED AND IGNORANT."
Tears flow from my ducts.[/QUOTE]
You clearly haven't read anything if you pointed out that hamas hit a UN installation when the reason the UN left was because of Isreali "misfires".
Talk more clear if you want to be taken seriously by the way.
[QUOTE=doggunn;13135768]Once you get to the point when you say a certain religion is designed to teach hate, it's a little too far - when it's obvious that they're not.[/QUOTE]
No religion is designed to teach hate. When it comes to Islam however there is a fundemental flaw in it's design. You see, with the five pilars (something each muslim must meet perfictly in order to be loved by allah and thus accepted to heaven) are nearly impossible for every muslim to meet the requirements for. (most muslims are raised in cultures that allow no second chances for this) This leaves them with but one option, martyrdom. Be it violent or not (usually violent) most who have lost hope in meeting the requirements of the five pilars often believe it is their only option.
This is why Islam is a self destructive religion doomed to faliure.
Now stop talking about religion. This is about how Hamas started a war with Israel.
[QUOTE=Rofl my Waff;13135871]You clearly haven't read anything if you pointed out that hamas hit a UN installation when the reason the UN left was because of Isreali "misfires".
Talk more clear if you want to be taken seriously by the way.[/QUOTE]
He's mocking you, and he's doing a good job of it too.
[QUOTE=Karskin;13135852]How do you know you've studied the Quran closer than me, that's quite a shot in the dark there.[/QUOTE]
??? It's blatantly obvious, sorry for the stereotyping when anyone with any knowledge of the quran wouldn't type disturbingly retarded comments like the ones you've presented us with.
[QUOTE=Karskin;13135888]He's mocking you, and he's doing a good job of it too.[/QUOTE]
Mocking a mocker does not make a mockery of me.
[QUOTE=Rofl my Waff;13135889]??? It's blatantly obvious, sorry for the stereotyping when anyone with any knowledge of the quran wouldn't type disturbingly retarded comments like the ones you've presented us with.[/QUOTE]
Prepare for the biggest ownage of your life
Waiting for you to google search "islamic hate"
[QUOTE=Rofl my Waff;13135871]You clearly haven't read anything if you pointed out that hamas hit a UN installation when the reason the UN left was because of Isreali "misfires".
Talk more clear if you want to be taken seriously by the way.[/QUOTE]
You can either admit to your short commings or continue to argue with me. Your desire to save face means very little to me.
[QUOTE=Mexinugget03;13135626]Oh lets also not forget how the civilians let hamas set up rocket launchers in their Goddamned backyards pointed at Israel.[/quote]
Because when armed militants are loading weapons in your backyard, you go out in your bathrobe and cup of coffee and ask them nicely to please do it on someone else's lawn.
[quote]Oh lets also not forget how theres a video of civilians loading munitions onto a hamas truck shortly before it's bombed by an Israeli LGB.[/quote]
Because twenty Palestinians represent the entire country.
[quote]Also in the broader spectrum of things, blame Israels arab neighbors. If it wasent for them there probably wouldnt be a conflict right now and there may even have been a palastine. But thats OK. Keep attacking the Israeli's for defending their country.[/quote]
Keep attacking the Palestinians for defending what used to be their country.
[quote]Point is, if you start a war with another country then use your civilians as sheilds and tools and militia then dont get all fucking butthurt when they start dying.[/quote]
If you sign the Geneva Convention, don't get butthurt when you have to abide by it.
[quote]Case fucking closed motherfuckers.[/QUOTE]
This is why twelve year olds are not allowed to make decisions like this.
People die in war. I cannot sugar coat this statement. Even more die when they choose to stay in the middle of battles while still on the fence about being civilians or not.
And Ive been watching the news. All these reports of civilian casualties are coming from palestinian officials. You try and tell me thats not a biased source.
[QUOTE=Mexinugget03;13135626]Oh just like hamas and palastine. Bottom line - Stop trying to kill the jews because it's your religion. It isn't nice and no one benifits from it.
Typical angsty teenager bullshit though to make out the Israeli's as the bad guys for no real reason then wholeheartedly support hamas and palastine regardless of the fact that they started the fucking war and the reason why so many civilians are being killed is because they either support the anti Israeli militants, cant read the FLYERS SAYING, LEAVE NOW THERE IS GOING TO BE A BATTLE HERE - LOVE ISRAEL (last I heard most of Israels oh so friendly neighbors were taking in refugees) and hamas is using them as sheilds. Like a few days ago when they shot some rounds at an Israeli position from a UN built school full of refugees. No shit they returned fire, what else are you supost to do when someone shoots at you?
Oh lets also not forget how the civilians let hamas set up rocket launchers in their Goddamned backyards pointed at Israel.
Oh lets also not forget how theres a video of civilians loading munitions onto a hamas truck shortly before it's bombed by an Israeli LGB.
Also in the broader spectrum of things, blame Israels arab neighbors. If it wasent for them there probably wouldnt be a conflict right now and there may even have been a palastine. But thats OK. Keep attacking the Israeli's for defending their country.
Point is, if you start a war with another country then use your civilians as sheilds and tools and militia then dont get all fucking butthurt when they start dying.
Case fucking closed motherfuckers.[/QUOTE]
You're dumb as a post
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Flaming" - GunFox))[/highlight]
This is directed at [b]Rofl my Waff[/b]:
You are being too relative. The 3 Abrahamic religions are not equally violent, intolerant and expansionist. Nowhere in the Jewish Talmud or the Christian Bible does it call on believers to force the world to submit to god at the point of a sword. It says this specifically in the Qu'ran, as well as the Sunnah and Ahadith, on numerous occasions, and if you like I will quote them for you (in full context).
There are also things such as divine abrogation. Barbaric practices such as stoning and animal sacrifice were abrogated more than once, being replaced with different instructions from god. There are the different covenants, the Noahic covenant, the Mosaic covenant, the Abrahamic covenant, etc. For the entire book of genesis, Christians (and possibly Jews, I don't know) believe that there was no sin, as god had not yet given Moses the 10 commandments. In the New Testament, Jesus abrogated stoning and other Israelite laws and customs, as seen in this verse:
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace (Eph: 2:15)
and also
"I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (Gal. 2:14)
On top of this, instances such as Lots daughters sleeping with him or Simeon and Levi massacring Shechem, which are told of in the bible, were not religious commands or instructions. They were stories about things that happened then and there.
Now, in the Qu'ran, the abrogation is almost exactly the opposite. When Muhammed lived in Mecca, it was at a point early on in his career as a religious leader, and he had few followers outside his immediate family, and no political or military power (which lay with the Pagan Meccans and surrounding Jewish tribes). He naturally preached brotherhood with neighbours, and to attract Jews he tried to make Islam compatible with their religion. He told them they worshipped the same God and even made it so that Muslims had to face Jerusalem in prayer, but this only lasted a short time, as his own followers weren't too fond of it, so Muhammed changed it (this little fiasco was partly the basis for Salman Rushdies "The Satanic Verses", as when Muhammed backtracked he claimed that satan had tricked him and given him verses while pretending to be Gabriel).
The later verses of the Qu'ran, chronologically, also happen to be the more violent, oppressive, and expansionist. This is because, as Muhammed gained more and more power, wealth and followers, he began persecuting non-Muslims more and more, waging unprovoked warfare against them solely for their material wealth (which Muhammed personally got one fifth of), and committing genocide against the Jews of the Arabian peninsula, in one instance checking each boy for pubic hair, and any that had hit puberty were executed along with their fathers.
When Muslims asked Muhammed why some verses given later on contradicted earlier verses, he claimed it was divine, as evidenced by the following verses:
"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?" (Qur'an 2:106)
"When We substitute one revelation for another, — and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), — they say, ‘Thou art but a forger’: but most of them understand not." (Qur'an 16:101)
This is the reason that Muslims can both quote peaceful verses and claim theirs is a religion of peace, while at the same time supporting terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah (a'la CAIR and MPAC). Such is the duality of Islam.
Now, regarding the typical argument in favor of the palestinians that they are only fighting back because they are poor and oppressed and have no other option, they fail to take into account that the majority of suicide bombers in Israel and the Palestinian territories are generally better educated, more intelligent, more financially stable and have brighter futures than the average citizen. Suicide bombing is just a tactic; it is martyrdom that they seek, and whether this is the instant martyrdom of suicide bombing, or a gunshot wound on a battlefield, they get what they are after.
You have to realize that regardless of whether Israel had ever done anything remotely hostile, or whether Israel made every concession possible, conveniant grievances like closing the border for their own safetyare just aids, and you would find that if they did every single thing possible to appease the Muslims of Gaza, and indeed the Muslim world in general, until they became Muslims ourselves, the attacks would not stop. Hezbollah means "Party of God"; HAMAS stands for "Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement". These groups are ALL ABOUT, and COMPLETELY revolve around Islam, in its purest form. Hamas is COMPLETELY about the destruction of the Jews, and the Palestinian people have been thoroughly indoctrinated by and unwaveringly support them.
Here is a passage from the Hamas charter:
" Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised."
Notice the references to the Arab and Islamic world and to Allah's victory and not the Palestinian peoples victory. To read the entire charter go here:
[url]http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm[/url]
Yes, Israel has killed innocents in the course of it's wars, as has any other nation that has ever fought a war. The difference between Israel, and groups like Hezbollah, and Hamas, is that Israel doesn't purposely target innocent civilians. Israel doesn't go out on missions with the sole purpose of shooting dead an innocent family and then crushing their infants head on a rock (look up Samir Kuntir, and the heros greeting he got on return to Lebanon). Israel doesn't fight without a uniform, from amidst civilians, and from schoolyards and the tops of hospitals, and they don't target ambulances or NGO's and they don't disguise their own bombs as ambulances or NGO's, all things that Hezbollah and Hamas use as regular tactics, and which are all against the Geneva convention (which you seem to only care about when there are [i]claims[/i] that Israel [i]may[/i] be breaking them, without mentioning the lengths Hamas goes to in order to see their own civilians come to harm).
Let's get some perspective on how Islam is spread. It is not spread by converts. It is spread by the sword and by demographics. Before the mid 630's (AD), The Mediterranean, North Africa and the Middle East were Christian and Pagan, Persia was Zoroastrian and Jain, India ranged from modern day Afghanistan to Burma and was Hindu, Buddhist and Jain. They were also very advanced and sophisticated cultures. Within a year, they were all conquered by Islam, at the point of a sword (Islam is NOT spread by converts which explains why, after the Battle of Vienna in 1683, when the Poles and other European powers stopped the Ottoman advance and effectively saved Christian Europe, Islam started languishing, and fell into a rut that continued until the 1970's, because it wasn't subjugating new peoples, it wasn't innovating or creating anything new, and it had just about run out of Dhimmis, whose poll taxes kept the economy afloat. But I'm getting off point). Nowadays, there are hardly any Zoroastrians or Jains left, there are no Buddhists left in India, and people believe the lie that the Palestinian Arabs lived in the Levant before the Jews.
Israel is far from perfect, and has made mistakes as any nation in war does. The difference is, is that if Hamas would just stop firing rockets, if the Palestinians would actually, truly commit to peace and lay down their arms, Israel would stop the invasions, the blockades, the walls. The Palestinians were given a chance for their own state twice, in 1948, and again in 2000. In 2000, they were offered more than 90% of the land they wanted. They spat at the offer and started the Al Aqsa Intifada.
Israel is not evil. They treat their enemies in their hospitals, they give food and medicine and electricity to the people who want to kill them, and they put up with unrelenting rocket fire for 3 years after pulling out of Gaza, including 6 months of a supposed cease fire, in addition to giving plenty of warning, prior to this invasion.
Now watch this video. It is a clip from Hamas run childrens TV. I'm sure you've heard of Farfour the mouse and Assad the rabbit.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em-MnAYiEWk[/url]
In the video the man interviewing the little girl asks her:
"What is more important, Peace and full rights, or Shahada (martyrdom in the name of Allah)"
and the girl answers:
"Shahada"
The Palestinians don't want a state of their own; they just can't abide the Jews having a state of their own.
Let's talk again of Islam being a "religion of peace".
Terrorism is just a tactic, Islam is the goal, and violence and expansionism have been central tenets of Islam for the past 1400 years. Before the U.S could have ever provoked the Islamic world, and at a time when the Ottoman empire was still vast and powerful, Barbary Pirates raided the Mediterranean and beyond. They attacked merchant ships, raided coastal settlements as far as England, carrying off the residents to be slaves, and generally were a huge pain in the neck for everyone. They started attacking American trade ships, which led to the creation of the U.S Navy and the U.S Marines, as well as the First and Second Barbary wars, some of the first wars the U.S fought. When Thomas Jefferson and John Adams met the Algerian ambassador to England in 1786, to ask him the reason behind the attacks, this is the answer they received:
"Islam was founded on the Laws of the Prophet, and it was written in their Quran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners and that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found."
The Algerian ambassador added that every Muslim slain in these battles was sure to go to "Paradise."
You see, this Islamic Jihad against non-Muslims has been happening long before Israel existed or the U.S was engaged in any activity that could be deemed oppressive, insulting, or egregious to Muslims (aside from not being Muslim, that is). Just as Islamic Jihad takes place in Southern Thailand, on the Island of Mindanao in the Philippines, in Sudan against the Black Muslims, Christians and Animists, in India against the Hindus, in Chechnya against the Russians. In fact, what was once just a nationalist struggle for a sovereign state for the Chechen people has since evolved into, by the Chechen rebels own proud admission, another front for the global Jihad.
[QUOTE=heatsketch;13136193]
"What is more important, Peace and full rights, or Shahada (martyrdom in the name of Allah)"
[/QUOTE]
That's not what the word Shahada means.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahada[/url]
There's a bunch of other problems in your post but this one really struck me.
[QUOTE=Chippay;13136227]That's not what the word Shahada means.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahada[/url][/QUOTE]
I can assure you that Shahada can be interpreted badly - sometimes martyrdom.
Just a little side note, I know you and I will never see eye to eye doggunn, but I'm quite glad you saw errors in what karskin said about islam being inertly evil...
[QUOTE=doggunn;13136262]I can assure you that Shahada can be interpreted badly - sometimes martyrdom.[/QUOTE]
I can assure you that's not what the Shahada is. The Shahada is the professment of faith and is one of the five pillars of Islam. It has nothing to do with martyrdom.
In the context taught in Palestinian childrens text books, Shahada is martyrdom in the name of Allah
point out the other problems, please, and I will try and address them
[QUOTE=Rofl my Waff;13136288]Just a little side note, I know you and I will never see eye to eye doggunn, but I'm quite glad you saw errors in what karskin said about islam being inertly evil...[/QUOTE]
I'm welcome to disputing wars, conflicts, history - but when it comes to just plain out calling other religions evil, it's really just ignorant.
[QUOTE=doggunn;13136320]I'm welcome to disputing wars, conflicts, history - but when it comes to just plain out calling other religions evil, it's really just ignorant.[/QUOTE]
I think almost all religions are "evil," Islam just being the evilest.
[QUOTE=heatsketch;13136311]In the context taught in Palestinian childrens text books, Shahada is martyrdom in the name of Allah[/QUOTE]
No. It really is not.
This is really not debatable. The Shahada has [B]nothing to do with martyrdom.[/B]
The Shahada is simply saying, and believing, that there is one God, Allah, and Muhammad was his messanger.
People twisting the Quran to justify terrorism doesn't make the Shahada have anything to do with Martyrdom. Nor does Christians twisting scripture to justify bombing abortion clinics mean that the "Our Father" prayer has anything to do with exterminating every non-christian in the world.
[QUOTE=Karskin;13136328]I think almost all religions are "evil," Islam just being the evilest.[/QUOTE]
I only see Scientology as evil... wait, that's not a religion!
[QUOTE=doggunn;13136320]I'm welcome to disputing wars, conflicts, history - but when it comes to just plain out calling other religions evil, it's really just ignorant.[/QUOTE]
Why do you find it so implausible that there exists a religion that would be considered evil by the prevailing moral standards here in the west?
And I mean a religion as practiced today.
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