[QUOTE=markfu;13150143]Where's the god damn agree rating?[/QUOTE]
On the first post
But that one sucks.
And it doesn't agree with the person I actually want to agree with.
Also I was wondering what you guys thought of this:
[quote=Bean-O]
To everyone who apologizes for Israel by saying "Well Israel has a right to defend itself." consider this:
Since when did Gaza, Palestine, Lebanon and all the other countries near Israel LOSE that right? If defending itself means moving in and crushing what little sign of sovereignty those countries have at the drop of a pin means "defense" to you then you need to find a freaking dictionary. The buffer zone argument is pure bullshit too.
This is why all the Muslims are so pissed off. Israel is so over-protective of itself that it practically launches offensives to prevent anyone from daring to do anything about them, the Muslims retaliate because they got stepped on, it's just back and forth. A textbook case of mutually stimulated aggression.
If no one started anything in the first place none of this would be happening. And it doesn't matter who started it. It has to fucking stop. And by "stop" I don't mean Israel continuing to treat anyone with a Muslim name like they're not a human being subject to their apartheid and occasional wholesale massacre in Palestine. "Stop" also means that the Muslims should start actually following and honoring the very goddamn soul of their "religion of peace", if they don't honor their part of the ceasefire than they just give more reason and justification for Israel to continue crushing and subjugating the countries immediately surrounding it and at the same time make the Israelis less trusting towards other agreements. For good reason too.
Everyone on both sides of the debate is like a fucking 5 year old. In fact even dumber. 5 year olds get bored and lose their grudges eventually. But these two, noooooo. They just can't let anything go. It's like the freaking Balkans. [/quote]
No one on either side commented on it, even though it was one of the more thought out posts in the last 10 pages or so.
I've been trying to argue that but let's face it, I don't have the patience to put in such eloquent words.
So firing the first rockets straight after a cease-fire:
That's defending yourself now? Sounds more like an offensive move.
You're looking at it too literally.
Hamas thinks long-game. Provoking Israel into another obvious blunder will help secure it's future.
The only thing that will topple hamas is another Palestinian popular movement. That is what Israel needs to work on.
So what do you say to clowns when they accuse Israel of "disproportionate force," "collective punishment," "apartheid" or "ethnic cleansing" ?
Here's a handy guide on how to shut these people up.
Disproportionate Force:
This is always the first thing our supposed peace-loving friends throw around when Israel does anything other than turning the other cheek.
If the Palestinians throw rocks, how can Israel respond with guns? If the Palestinian shoot bullets, how can Israel respond with artillery? If the Palestinians shoot little tin-can rockets how can Israel respond with thousands of tons of bombs?
On the surface it seems like a legitimate question. If the Palestinians pose no existential threat to Israel, why respond with such overwhelming force? Israel has access to tremendous military might. The Palestinians do not. It seems like a classic David VS Goliath scenario. However, it is, like all of these accusations - nonsense.
The first thing you need to know is that the idea that this is a conflict between big bad Israel (population: approximately 7 million) and little tiny Gaza (population: approximately 1.5 million) is a ridiculous notion to begin with. Hamas is sponsored by Iran, and the Palestinian leadership has been the beneficiaries of hundreds of millions of dollars of support from countries like [url=http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,50260,00.html"url]Saudi Arabia[/url], [url=http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Story.asp?Article=239808&Sn=BNEW&IssueID=31296"url]Bahrain[/url], [url=http://sweetness-light.com/archive/some-still-dont-buy-dubai-port-deal"url]Dubai[/url], [url=http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L14574029.htm"url]Qatar[/url] and the rest of the Arab world (and that's not even mentioning [url=http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/008181.php"url]Western contributions[/url]). Since we now know what that money is used for...
[img]http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/4388/19261cb9.jpg[/img]
[url=http://www.meforum.org/article/1926"url]Source: Middle East Quarterly, Summer 2008[/url]
We can then extrapolate that it's not just Israel VS the poor, abused Gazans...it's the entire big, bad Middle East VS little, tiny Israel.
But let's even pretend that we were willing to concede the point that Israel has an organized, well-funded, well-trained Goliath military and the Palestinians are just a disorganized rabble of barbarians. Imagine the following analogy:
You are pulled into a fight with someone half your size who was armed only with toothpicks while you have a baseball bat already in your hands. Now at first, this fight starts with your opponent pricking you in the arms with the toothpick. You maintain your composure because hey after all, it's just a toothpick! Yeah sure it hurts, but it's not worth beating someone up over. Then your opponent starts poking you in the face. Again. And again. And he starts screaming about how much stronger he is than you. How he's going to kill you and your family. But you still maintain your composure because hey, it's just words and it's just toothpicks. Then he starts trying to stab you in the eye with his toothpicks, but you keep swatting his hands away because he can barely reach you. Still you do not retaliate because it's not worth beating someone up for this, no matter how annoying it may be. Finally, your opponent realizes he will not be able to defeat you in this way he tells you he wants to stop and be friends, he even shakes your hand.
As soon as you turn your back to him he rushes over with his toothpicks and stabs your wife or husband in the eye. You turn around just in time to see him do the same to your daughter or son.
What do you do? Are you going to toss him a baseball bat to make sure he has a "fair" chance...or are you going to do everything in your power to put a stop to it immediately? Would anyone fault you for reacting in the most efficient way you can think of to put an end to this threat once and for all? Probably not...unless you're wearing a yarmulke. Use that analogy next time some French guy tells you that Israel's response is "disproportionate."
Collective Punishment:
How can Israel lay a "siege" to Gaza that hurts innocent civilians in addition to the terrorists? (Or militants. Or peace-activists. Or same thing.) Why do the innocent women and children who have no access to food and supplies as result of this "blockade" of Gaza deserve to suffer for the actions of their governing body?
First of all, let's not forget [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/26/AR2006012600372.html"url]why Gaza is ruled by Hamas[/url] today.
In the first "democratic" election in the Palestinian territories (certified by no less an authority on democracy than EU Foreign Affairs Chief, Javier Solana himself!) the wonderful, peace-loving Palestinians elected [url=http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm"url] Hamas[/url], an organization sworn to destroy the state of Israel, by a landslide. NOTE: the Hamas charter does not say anything about freedom and liberation, nor does it say anything about settling on pre-1967 borders...it says DESTROY ALL OF ISRAEL. It says NO SOLUTION FOR THE PALESTINIAN QUESTION BUT JIHAD. It says INITIATIVES AND PROPOSALS ARE A WASTE OF TIME. But more on the Hamas charter later in the "apartheid" chapter. For now just remember that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians voted for these guys and the sitting government, the "more moderate" Fatah party willingly stepped aside, saying that Hamas was the "will of the people."
Every single Gazan that willingly voted for Hamas bears some responsibility for this nightmare. They all have blood on their hands...every single one of them.
Next, did you ever wonder who [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7061617.stm"url] powers[/url] Hamas offices, Hamas terrorist training camps and the homes of Hamas leaders? Did you ever wonder who gives Hamas the very [url=http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/23/world/middleeast/23mideast.html"url] fuel[/url] they use to transport their weapons, rockets and fighters? Did you ever wonder who provides [url=http://samsonblinded.org/blog/stop-watering-gaza.htm"url] water[/url] to the toilets that these jerks sit on after firing off a few rockets into an Israeli bus stop? That's right, the JEWS!
Think about that for a minute. You're at war with another country...a country whose democratically elected, internationally-recognized government has vowed to destroy you...whose government that along with controlling the electricity, water and fuel supplies you give them is engaged in active attempts to kill your women and children...whose government is TAKING THE ITEMS YOU ARE GIVING THEM AND USING THEM TO TRY AND KILL YOU. Pretend for a minute that it was you. Not some Jews you don't really know or care about, who live 6,000 miles away from you. It's you. You are physically handing someone gasoline that he then pumps into his car and tries to run you over with. You personally. Not some people you've never met and will never meet. YOU. Does that make sense? Would any sane individual even consider doing something like that? And yet that's exactly what Israel has done for the past three years! Enough already!
And you know what, apparently Hamas didn't get the message when Israel used these NON-VIOLENT methods...so guess what? It's war time.
Apartheid:
How can Israel be so unfair and racist to the Palestinians by restricting their movements in the West Bank with checkpoints and keeping them from entering Israel-proper for work? How can they strangle the Palestinian "economy" with their military occupation? Of course the Palestinians are upset, who wouldn't be?
Most important to remember about this nonsense is that there is NO LAW that states who can and cannot be an Israeli citizen. Not only are Arabs eligible for Israeli citizenship, several members of the [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giCkih0SjK8"url] Israeli Parliament are Arabs![/url] Note in that video the language used by the Arab members of the Parliament - they flat-out call the Israeli actions a war crime and aside from some shouting, what's the penalty? Trial for treason? Execution? Jail? NOTHING. Because Israel is a DEMOCRACY. It's a DEMOCRACY where even a non-Jewish Arab who is anti-Israel can be elected to public office! I'm not so big on the concept of apartheid but somehow I don't think that would fly in [url=http://www.un.org/av/photo/subjects/apartheid.htm"url] South Africa[/url]. Or [url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3541356.ece"url] Iran.[/url] Google how many Jews are in the Palestinian government today. Or Iran. Or any other Muslim-ruled country. I'll give you a hint, it's less than one.
As for the Palestinians who live under "occupation" in the West Bank...where were all these protesters and sympathizers before 1967 when the Jordanians ruled the West Bank and the Egyptians ruled Gaza and barred Jews and Christians from visiting their holy sites in Jerusalem? Why don't they speak out about the [url=http://ronmossad.blogspot.com/2008/12/difference.html"url] awful things[/url] that are broadcast over Palestinian government-run television?
And to bring up the earlier analogy about supplying your enemy with the fuel to kill you - if you are at war with the ruling body of a separate territory, and that ruling body regularly sends [url=http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisraelsum.html"url] suicide bombers[/url] into your country to kill thousands of your citizens over the course of 60 years...why would you allow them to continue? If you could seal that territory up and prevent these people from breaching the border, wouldn't you do that? Not only does this protect your own citizens, it keeps you from having to go after these people in their own territory where they hide behind innocent civilians and use them as human shields. So not only are you saving your own civilians, you're protecting theirs. But sure, it's totally racist.
Finally, let's go back to that [url=http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm"url] Hamas charter[/url] I brought up earlier. Here are a few selected quotes from that document:
Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps.
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."
Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters.
Arab and Islamic Peoples should augment by further steps on their part; Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews.
I think it pretty much speaks for itself...but just in case you need to point this out to a "peace-activist" who SUPPORTS Hamas, make sure when they complain to you about checkpoints and discrimination you ask them what Hamas has to say about the Jews.
Ethnic Cleansing:
Why does Israel kill so many Palestinian civilians? They must be trying to get them all to leave the West Bank and Gaza...or worse, kill them all just so more of those greedy, land-stealing Jews can move in.
This is probably the most ridiculous accusation of all. On the one hand, we're meant to believe that Israel has this unstoppable, juggernaut military that can lay waste to the pathetic Palestinian rock-throwing brigades in 10 seconds flat...but on the other hand it's not even capable of putting an end to this conflict for over 60 years. Despite trying everything possible to do so?
Huh?!?!?!
Well, there is one accurate part of that - the Israeli military could put an end to this conflict very swiftly and very painfully. You only need to turn on the news see the might of the Israeli Air Force. Israel rules the skies over Gaza and they ruled the skies over Lebanon in the 2006 war. They essentially destroyed the entire Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian air forces in the 1967 war before they managed to even get a single plane off the ground. And yet, they continue to show restraint, continue to put soldiers in harm's way by using ground forces in an attempt to minimize civilian casualties. Whether you believe the reasons for this are because of Israel's higher moral code (I do) or just because of some fear of international retaliation is irrelevant - the bottom line is that Israel has the power to ethnically cleanse most of the Middle East and doesn't do it. It's just NOT happening.
Furthermore, Israel has a much bigger problem than some Palestinians in Gaza. If current trends continue, Israeli Arabs - who again, are full Israeli citizens - may outnumber Israeli Jews [url=http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/1/11/124803.shtml"url] by the year 2020...[/url] that's 11 years.
Take a look at this video, direct from the Israeli Air Force:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAokqVFMvWU[/media]
Pay close attention to the footage. Note the buildings surrounding what appears at first to be a nondescript patch of land. If you're like me, you put your face up to the monitor and wondered which building was going to be targeted when suddenly there's an explosion and a small missile goes spiraling out of this empty space off into a field somewhere.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk"url]More video from the IDF[/url]
Because you see, Netanyahu is right. Hamas digs holes in the ground surrounded by residential buildings and fires missiles at innocent women and children. And that's when they're not firing from on top of apartment buildings. They do this, because they know that Israel will think not twice, not three times, but possibly SEVEN AND A HALF YEARS before retaliating. They cheat. They DELIBERATELY put Jews and Arabs in harms way. Israel tip-toes around and jumps through hoops to do all it can to both defend its citizens while minimizing civilian casualties on the other side.
Civilians by the way, who voted overwhelmingly for a party that swears not to rest until Israel is destroyed.
Now compare this to the other side.
The Palestinians DO engage in the following:
- Unprovoked suicide bombings against innocent men, women and children on buses, in cafes, pizza parlors, restaurants, hotels, etc, in heavily populated urban areas that are DELIBERATELY designed to kill as many civilians as possible (disproportionate force, collective punishment)
- Unprovoked rocket attacks fired from inaccurate launchers with no guidance systems that rain down on [url=http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C07E1DC1538F93AA15755C0A9629C8B63"url] kindergartens,[/url] [url=http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129104"url] bus stops[/url] and [url=http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/c.hsJPK0PIJpH/b.3883061/"url] playgrounds[/url] in an attempt to cause as much chaos, panic, death and terror and eventual evacuation of all non-Arabs from all cities within their firing range (collective punishment, ethnic cleansing)
- Bans of non-Muslims from visiting holy places such as Temple Mount (the holiest place in all of Judaism) including violence against innocent civilians who dare to break this decree (apartheid, disproportionate force)
Please note by the way that the attack on the kindergarten happened in 2004! FOUR YEARS AGO!
And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Really, I could spend years talking about all the deliberate murders of innocent people by these Hamas killers and never run out of material. All in attacks that SPECIFICALLY target innocent people, including children. Yet it is ISRAEL that is criticized when it responds to these murders and takes all the care in the world to try and prevent civilian tragedies.
So please, the next time one of these supposed "peace activists" throws these stupid catch-phrases at you, use the information you've read here to put them in their place.
UPDATE:
I am new to html (yes, n00b, I know) and I can't figure out why they won't work like this, so here is a list of the links I use in chronological order:
[url]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,50260,00.html[/url]
[url]http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Story.asp?Article=239808&Sn=BNEW&IssueID=31296[/url]
[url]http://sweetness-light.com/archive/some-still-dont-buy-dubai-port-deal[/url]
[url]http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L14574029.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/008181.php[/url]
[url]http://www.meforum.org/article/1926[/url]
[url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/26/AR2006012600372.html[/url]
[url]http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm[/url]
[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7061617.stm[/url]
[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/23/world/middleeast/23mideast.html[/url]
[url]http://samsonblinded.org/blog/stop-watering-gaza.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giCkih0SjK8[/url]
[url]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3541356.ece[/url]
[url]http://ronmossad.blogspot.com/2008/12/difference.html[/url]
[url]http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisraelsum.html[/url]
[url]http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm[/url]
[url]http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/1/11/124803.shtml[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk[/url]
[url]http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C07E1DC1538F93AA15755C0A9629C8B63[/url]
[url]http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129104[/url]
[url]http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/c.hsJPK0PIJpH/b.3883061/[/url]
[QUOTE=heatsketch;13152417]So what do you say to clowns when they accuse Israel of "disproportionate force," "collective punishment," "apartheid" or "ethnic cleansing" ?
Here's a handy guide on how to shut these people up.
Disproportionate Force:
This is always the first thing our supposed peace-loving friends throw around when Israel does anything other than turning the other cheek.
If the Palestinians throw rocks, how can Israel respond with guns? If the Palestinian shoot bullets, how can Israel respond with artillery? If the Palestinians shoot little tin-can rockets how can Israel respond with thousands of tons of bombs?
On the surface it seems like a legitimate question. If the Palestinians pose no existential threat to Israel, why respond with such overwhelming force? Israel has access to tremendous military might. The Palestinians do not. It seems like a classic David VS Goliath scenario. However, it is, like all of these accusations - nonsense.
The first thing you need to know is that the idea that this is a conflict between big bad Israel (population: approximately 7 million) and little tiny Gaza (population: approximately 1.5 million) is a ridiculous notion to begin with. Hamas is sponsored by Iran, and the Palestinian leadership has been the beneficiaries of hundreds of millions of dollars of support from countries like [url=http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,50260,00.html"url]Saudi Arabia[/url], [url=http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Story.asp?Article=239808&Sn=BNEW&IssueID=31296"url]Bahrain[/url], [url=http://sweetness-light.com/archive/some-still-dont-buy-dubai-port-deal"url]Dubai[/url], [url=http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L14574029.htm"url]Qatar[/url] and the rest of the Arab world (and that's not even mentioning [url=http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/008181.php"url]Western contributions[/url]). Since we now know what that money is used for...
[img]http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/4388/19261cb9.jpg[/img]
[url=http://www.meforum.org/article/1926"url]Source: Middle East Quarterly, Summer 2008[/url]
We can then extrapolate that it's not just Israel VS the poor, abused Gazans...it's the entire big, bad Middle East VS little, tiny Israel.
But let's even pretend that we were willing to concede the point that Israel has an organized, well-funded, well-trained Goliath military and the Palestinians are just a disorganized rabble of barbarians. Imagine the following analogy:
You are pulled into a fight with someone half your size who was armed only with toothpicks while you have a baseball bat already in your hands. Now at first, this fight starts with your opponent pricking you in the arms with the toothpick. You maintain your composure because hey after all, it's just a toothpick! Yeah sure it hurts, but it's not worth beating someone up over. Then your opponent starts poking you in the face. Again. And again. And he starts screaming about how much stronger he is than you. How he's going to kill you and your family. But you still maintain your composure because hey, it's just words and it's just toothpicks. Then he starts trying to stab you in the eye with his toothpicks, but you keep swatting his hands away because he can barely reach you. Still you do not retaliate because it's not worth beating someone up for this, no matter how annoying it may be. Finally, your opponent realizes he will not be able to defeat you in this way he tells you he wants to stop and be friends, he even shakes your hand.
As soon as you turn your back to him he rushes over with his toothpicks and stabs your wife or husband in the eye. You turn around just in time to see him do the same to your daughter or son.
What do you do? Are you going to toss him a baseball bat to make sure he has a "fair" chance...or are you going to do everything in your power to put a stop to it immediately? Would anyone fault you for reacting in the most efficient way you can think of to put an end to this threat once and for all? Probably not...unless you're wearing a yarmulke. Use that analogy next time some French guy tells you that Israel's response is "disproportionate."
Collective Punishment:
How can Israel lay a "siege" to Gaza that hurts innocent civilians in addition to the terrorists? (Or militants. Or peace-activists. Or same thing.) Why do the innocent women and children who have no access to food and supplies as result of this "blockade" of Gaza deserve to suffer for the actions of their governing body?
First of all, let's not forget [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/26/AR2006012600372.html"url]why Gaza is ruled by Hamas[/url] today.
In the first "democratic" election in the Palestinian territories (certified by no less an authority on democracy than EU Foreign Affairs Chief, Javier Solana himself!) the wonderful, peace-loving Palestinians elected [url=http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm"url] Hamas[/url], an organization sworn to destroy the state of Israel, by a landslide. NOTE: the Hamas charter does not say anything about freedom and liberation, nor does it say anything about settling on pre-1967 borders...it says DESTROY ALL OF ISRAEL. It says NO SOLUTION FOR THE PALESTINIAN QUESTION BUT JIHAD. It says INITIATIVES AND PROPOSALS ARE A WASTE OF TIME. But more on the Hamas charter later in the "apartheid" chapter. For now just remember that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians voted for these guys and the sitting government, the "more moderate" Fatah party willingly stepped aside, saying that Hamas was the "will of the people."
Every single Gazan that willingly voted for Hamas bears some responsibility for this nightmare. They all have blood on their hands...every single one of them.
Next, did you ever wonder who [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7061617.stm"url] powers[/url] Hamas offices, Hamas terrorist training camps and the homes of Hamas leaders? Did you ever wonder who gives Hamas the very [url=http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/23/world/middleeast/23mideast.html"url] fuel[/url] they use to transport their weapons, rockets and fighters? Did you ever wonder who provides [url=http://samsonblinded.org/blog/stop-watering-gaza.htm"url] water[/url] to the toilets that these jerks sit on after firing off a few rockets into an Israeli bus stop? That's right, the JEWS!
Think about that for a minute. You're at war with another country...a country whose democratically elected, internationally-recognized government has vowed to destroy you...whose government that along with controlling the electricity, water and fuel supplies you give them is engaged in active attempts to kill your women and children...whose government is TAKING THE ITEMS YOU ARE GIVING THEM AND USING THEM TO TRY AND KILL YOU. Pretend for a minute that it was you. Not some Jews you don't really know or care about, who live 6,000 miles away from you. It's you. You are physically handing someone gasoline that he then pumps into his car and tries to run you over with. You personally. Not some people you've never met and will never meet. YOU. Does that make sense? Would any sane individual even consider doing something like that? And yet that's exactly what Israel has done for the past three years! Enough already!
And you know what, apparently Hamas didn't get the message when Israel used these NON-VIOLENT methods...so guess what? It's war time.
Apartheid:
How can Israel be so unfair and racist to the Palestinians by restricting their movements in the West Bank with checkpoints and keeping them from entering Israel-proper for work? How can they strangle the Palestinian "economy" with their military occupation? Of course the Palestinians are upset, who wouldn't be?
Most important to remember about this nonsense is that there is NO LAW that states who can and cannot be an Israeli citizen. Not only are Arabs eligible for Israeli citizenship, several members of the [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giCkih0SjK8"url] Israeli Parliament are Arabs![/url] Note in that video the language used by the Arab members of the Parliament - they flat-out call the Israeli actions a war crime and aside from some shouting, what's the penalty? Trial for treason? Execution? Jail? NOTHING. Because Israel is a DEMOCRACY. It's a DEMOCRACY where even a non-Jewish Arab who is anti-Israel can be elected to public office! I'm not so big on the concept of apartheid but somehow I don't think that would fly in [url=http://www.un.org/av/photo/subjects/apartheid.htm"url] South Africa[/url]. Or [url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3541356.ece"url] Iran.[/url] Google how many Jews are in the Palestinian government today. Or Iran. Or any other Muslim-ruled country. I'll give you a hint, it's less than one.
As for the Palestinians who live under "occupation" in the West Bank...where were all these protesters and sympathizers before 1967 when the Jordanians ruled the West Bank and the Egyptians ruled Gaza and barred Jews and Christians from visiting their holy sites in Jerusalem? Why don't they speak out about the [url=http://ronmossad.blogspot.com/2008/12/difference.html"url] awful things[/url] that are broadcast over Palestinian government-run television?
And to bring up the earlier analogy about supplying your enemy with the fuel to kill you - if you are at war with the ruling body of a separate territory, and that ruling body regularly sends [url=http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisraelsum.html"url] suicide bombers[/url] into your country to kill thousands of your citizens over the course of 60 years...why would you allow them to continue? If you could seal that territory up and prevent these people from breaching the border, wouldn't you do that? Not only does this protect your own citizens, it keeps you from having to go after these people in their own territory where they hide behind innocent civilians and use them as human shields. So not only are you saving your own civilians, you're protecting theirs. But sure, it's totally racist.
Finally, let's go back to that [url=http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm"url] Hamas charter[/url] I brought up earlier. Here are a few selected quotes from that document:
Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps.
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."
Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters.
Arab and Islamic Peoples should augment by further steps on their part; Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews.
I think it pretty much speaks for itself...but just in case you need to point this out to a "peace-activist" who SUPPORTS Hamas, make sure when they complain to you about checkpoints and discrimination you ask them what Hamas has to say about the Jews.
Ethnic Cleansing:
Why does Israel kill so many Palestinian civilians? They must be trying to get them all to leave the West Bank and Gaza...or worse, kill them all just so more of those greedy, land-stealing Jews can move in.
This is probably the most ridiculous accusation of all. On the one hand, we're meant to believe that Israel has this unstoppable, juggernaut military that can lay waste to the pathetic Palestinian rock-throwing brigades in 10 seconds flat...but on the other hand it's not even capable of putting an end to this conflict for over 60 years. Despite trying everything possible to do so?
Huh?!?!?!
Well, there is one accurate part of that - the Israeli military could put an end to this conflict very swiftly and very painfully. You only need to turn on the news see the might of the Israeli Air Force. Israel rules the skies over Gaza and they ruled the skies over Lebanon in the 2006 war. They essentially destroyed the entire Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian air forces in the 1967 war before they managed to even get a single plane off the ground. And yet, they continue to show restraint, continue to put soldiers in harm's way by using ground forces in an attempt to minimize civilian casualties. Whether you believe the reasons for this are because of Israel's higher moral code (I do) or just because of some fear of international retaliation is irrelevant - the bottom line is that Israel has the power to ethnically cleanse most of the Middle East and doesn't do it. It's just NOT happening.
Furthermore, Israel has a much bigger problem than some Palestinians in Gaza. If current trends continue, Israeli Arabs - who again, are full Israeli citizens - may outnumber Israeli Jews [url=http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/1/11/124803.shtml"url] by the year 2020...[/url] that's 11 years.
Take a look at this video, direct from the Israeli Air Force:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAokqVFMvWU[/media]
Pay close attention to the footage. Note the buildings surrounding what appears at first to be a nondescript patch of land. If you're like me, you put your face up to the monitor and wondered which building was going to be targeted when suddenly there's an explosion and a small missile goes spiraling out of this empty space off into a field somewhere.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk"url]More video from the IDF[/url]
Because you see, Netanyahu is right. Hamas digs holes in the ground surrounded by residential buildings and fires missiles at innocent women and children. And that's when they're not firing from on top of apartment buildings. They do this, because they know that Israel will think not twice, not three times, but possibly SEVEN AND A HALF YEARS before retaliating. They cheat. They DELIBERATELY put Jews and Arabs in harms way. Israel tip-toes around and jumps through hoops to do all it can to both defend its citizens while minimizing civilian casualties on the other side.
Civilians by the way, who voted overwhelmingly for a party that swears not to rest until Israel is destroyed.
Now compare this to the other side.
The Palestinians DO engage in the following:
- Unprovoked suicide bombings against innocent men, women and children on buses, in cafes, pizza parlors, restaurants, hotels, etc, in heavily populated urban areas that are DELIBERATELY designed to kill as many civilians as possible (disproportionate force, collective punishment)
- Unprovoked rocket attacks fired from inaccurate launchers with no guidance systems that rain down on [url=http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C07E1DC1538F93AA15755C0A9629C8B63"url] kindergartens,[/url] [url=http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129104"url] bus stops[/url] and [url=http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/c.hsJPK0PIJpH/b.3883061/"url] playgrounds[/url] in an attempt to cause as much chaos, panic, death and terror and eventual evacuation of all non-Arabs from all cities within their firing range (collective punishment, ethnic cleansing)
- Bans of non-Muslims from visiting holy places such as Temple Mount (the holiest place in all of Judaism) including violence against innocent civilians who dare to break this decree (apartheid, disproportionate force)
Please note by the way that the attack on the kindergarten happened in 2004! FOUR YEARS AGO!
And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Really, I could spend years talking about all the deliberate murders of innocent people by these Hamas killers and never run out of material. All in attacks that SPECIFICALLY target innocent people, including children. Yet it is ISRAEL that is criticized when it responds to these murders and takes all the care in the world to try and prevent civilian tragedies.
So please, the next time one of these supposed "peace activists" throws these stupid catch-phrases at you, use the information you've read here to put them in their place.[/QUOTE]
I love it when people make sense.
*Bows* thank you, thank you.
The anti-Israel crowd tend to be the loudest, and logic & reason often get drowned out or buried in the process of their bloviating.
I understand what Israel is doing,, I just hate the bloodthirstiness of the people I know.
[QUOTE=heatsketch;13152417]words[/QUOTE]
A big chunk of your links don't work champ, just pointing that out.
Wow, amazing post, heatsketch. Very well constructed.
[QUOTE=Chippays;13152602]A big chunk of your links don't work champ, just pointing that out.[/QUOTE]
Fixed. The links in the body of the text still don't work but I've included them all again at the bottom of the post
And Chippays;
Seeing as how you seem to be one of several resident Palestinian standard bearers around these parts, I'm assuming you vehemently disagree with much of what I just posted.
Now that I've made sure the sources are easily reachable, I'd like for you to read my post if you haven't already, to review the sources provided, and then to construct a clearly worded and well sourced rebuttal to anything you may disagree or take issue with, a process which I can then repeat, in the true and classic style of gentlemanly debate.
_______
And TY to any and all who have or will give kudos
Post whatever you want, but I feel that as a Jew with family affected by the Holocaust, that our histories are in vain. I don't understand why we can't let the Palestinians have their land... It just isn't right to me, and maybe it's just because I was raised that way.
[QUOTE=heatsketch;13152767]And Chippays;
Seeing as how you seem to be one of several resident Palestinian standard bearers around these parts, I'm assuming you vehemently disagree with much of what I just posted.
Now that I've made sure the sources are easily reachable, I'd like for you to read my post if you haven't already, to review the sources provided, and then to construct a clearly worded and well sourced rebuttal to anything you may disagree or take issue with, a process which I can then repeat, in the true and classic style of gentlemanly debate.
_______
And TY to any and all who have or will give kudos[/QUOTE]
Awesome, I don't give a shit though. You're free to circlejerk about Israel all you want, zionism woohoo
[QUOTE=thisispain;13152822]Post whatever you want, but I feel that as a Jew with family affected by the Holocaust, that our histories are in vain. I don't understand why we can't let the Palestinians have their land... It just isn't right to me, and maybe it's just because I was raised that way.[/QUOTE]
It sounds to me like you buy into the myth that the Jews stole the Palestinians land and that every single Palestinian alive today is entitled to land.
The Palestinians were offered their own state TWICE.
Once in 1948, when the UN divided the remaining 20% of the British Mandate of Palestine (as 80% of it became Jordan) between the Jews and the Arabs. That's right, the Arabs. Before 1967, there was no such thing as a "Palestinian people". They weren't called that. Prior to 1967, Jordan ruled the West Bank and Egypt ruled Gaza. They were called Arabs; Jordanians; Egyptians... But not Palestinians. Prior to 1948, "Palestinian" was used in reference to ANYone who lived there, whether Arab, or Jew.
Anyway, the UN divided up what was left of the British Mandate of Palestine... Half became Israel, and half was to become an Arab state... but before that could happen, the newly formed countries of Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Jordan, along with Egypt, immediately invaded the newly formed Jewish nation. The Arab armies vastly outnumbered the Jews, and figured they were in for a quick victory; that they would push the Jews into the sea and be home in time for Ramadan. They were sorely mistaken, and the Jews, despite losing 1% of their total population, successfully defended themselves, repelling the Arabs (who were home in time for Ramadan, after all!)
As this war got underway, it was the invading Arab armies who had the "Palestinian" Arabs leave their homes. Most of the 750,000 of the Palestinian refugees who left did so without ever seeing a Jewish soldier... they did so at the urging of their fellow Arab armies. In fact, in some cases the Jews pleaded with the Arabs to stay: [url]http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/appeal.html[/url]
At the same time this was happening, 800,000 Jews were expelled from Arab Muslim lands, lands on which their ancestors had lived for thousands of years... yet we never hear about their "right of return".
This may be because Israel resettled them. They are fellow Hebrews, after all. So why isn't it that Arab Muslim countries such as Lebanon and Syria and Jordan, which house sizable refugee camps (which are for all intents and purposes cities, with traffic lights, theatres, groceries, cafes, apartment blocks, sewer systems, refuse collection, tv and phone cables, etc) resettle these refugees? They are all Arabs, they are all Muslims, twice the reason why there should be no problem with it. But they don't, because the perpetual "palestinian problem", the never ending want for a "right to return", allows them to keep up their infinite Jihad against Israel.
And let me ask, since when is refugee status passed on with blood? What other group in the world, whether Tutsi, or Congolese, or Tibetan, or Uganden, or Somalian, passes refugee status on generation after generation? Which other displaced group gets their refugee camps built into cities, with their infrastructure and social services all taken care of for them on the dime of the international community? The Palestinian population has exploded so exponentially that there are a couple million more of them now than at the time of Al-Nakba (the Arabic term for the creation of Israel, literally means "The Catastrophe") that there are way more Palestinians claiming to be owed land than ever lived there in the first place. If you were to add up each and every individual land claim it would amount to millions of sq/km more than the entire area of Israel, Gaza and the West Bank put together.
The Palestinians were offered their own state again in 2000. Remember Clinton and Camp David? Israel offered 95% of the land Palestinians wanted to them, only holding onto East Jerusalem and a few settlements in West Bank. The Palestinians spat at this offer, and started the Al-Aqsa intifada, which continues to this day and which Operation Cast Lead is a response to.
As I said a couple days ago, when choosing between Peace, full rights, self autonomy; and Jihad against the Jews... They will choose Jihad, always...
[QUOTE=Chippays;13152990]Awesome, I don't give a shit though. You're free to circlejerk about Israel all you want, zionism woohoo[/QUOTE]
You can't be bothered to reply. I can think two possible different reasons why:
1: You didn't actually bother to read any of it.
2: You know that you can't come back with a reply that refutes, rebutts or calls into question the veracity of absolutely ANYTHING that I just posted, you know that everything I just said, while quite possibly, nay, probably, being a circlejerk of Israel, is also PERFECTLY ACCURATE and CORRECT, which is why it is so jerky-worthy in the first place. You can't argue in defense of the Palestinians or against Israel with regards to anything I posted, so you pretend like you don't care and like none of this matters to you, when the opposite is so clearly true, judging by your previous participation in this and other, similar threads.
and an amendment to #2: you are incapable of any sort of intelligent debate, and resort to ad hominem smears, setting up straw men, unsubstantiated claims and smears, and deflection.
Winning so hard sucks, because it pretty much kills the thread
night, all :)
Your posts only show the bad side of Palestinians and you don't show the other side of the Israeli side.
I think you are quite naive for believing that the Israeli's are the kind gentle souls and that Palestinians are the evil guys. There is no good or evil in this story, they all have performed massive atrocities, and the sooner we accept that, the sooner we can stop it.
[QUOTE=heatsketch;13153103]You can't be bothered to reply. I can think two possible different reasons why:
1: You didn't actually bother to read any of it.
2: You know that you can't come back with a reply that refutes, rebutts or calls into question the veracity of absolutely ANYTHING that I just posted, you know that everything I just said, while quite possibly, nay, probably, being a circlejerk of Israel, is also PERFECTLY ACCURATE and CORRECT, which is why it is so jerky-worthy in the first place. You can't argue in defense of the Palestinians or against Israel with regards to anything I posted, so you pretend like you don't care and like none of this matters to you, when the opposite is so clearly true, judging by your previous participation in this and other, similar threads.
and an amendment to #2: you are incapable of any sort of intelligent debate, and resort to ad hominem smears, setting up straw men, unsubstantiated claims and smears, and deflection.[/QUOTE]
It's because I don't want to argue with someone so indoctrinated combined with the fact I don't give a shit, you dolt. I absolutely love how you start up the personal attacks when I don't address your post though. Maybe you should look up "irony" before you accuse someone else of 'Ad Hominem', 'Strawmen' and other big words you don't use correctly.
[QUOTE=heatsketch;13153117]Winning so hard sucks, because it pretty much kills the thread
night, all :)[/QUOTE]
You can't win an argument if no one bothers to argue with you. Tommorow we'll cover how many feet are in a mile and addition! Unless you want to go over the definition of Shahada for another day, it's tough learning definitons, isn't it?
[QUOTE=thisispain;13153165]Your posts only show the bad side of Palestinians and you don't show the other side of the Israeli side.
I think you are quite naive for believing that the Israeli's are the kind gentle souls and that Palestinians are the evil guys. There is no good or evil in this story, they all have performed massive atrocities, and the sooner we accept that, the sooner we can stop it.[/QUOTE]
There are differences though. The Israeli's don't go around targeting innocent civilians, the Israeli's don't launch attacks from amidst civilians and hospitals and schools..... but I already discussed all of this in an earlier post, about which I am going to ask you: did you read it?
Israeli's try and minimize all civilian casualties. The Israelis treat injured Gazans in their hospital while supplying them with food, medical aid, electricity, fuel, etc.... also things which I discussed previously
The Palestinians are the ones who keep this conflict going. The Palestinians, and not just the palestinians, but the larger Muslim world, are the aggressors in this conflict. They are always the aggressors, they have been since the early 20th century, and they will continue to do so either until one side wipes out the other or the end of time (whichever comes first).
[QUOTE=heatsketch;13153218]There are differences though. The Israeli's don't go around targeting innocent civilians, the Israeli's don't launch attacks from amidst civilians and hospitals and schools..... but I already discussed all of this in an earlier post, about which I am going to ask you: did you read it?
Israeli's try and minimize all civilian casualties. The Israelis treat injured Gazans in their hospital while supplying them with food, medical aid, electricity, fuel, etc.... also things which I discussed previously
The Palestinians are the ones who keep this conflict going. The Palestinians, and not just the palestinians, but the larger Muslim world, are the aggressors in this conflict. They are always the aggressors, they have been since the early 20th century, and they will continue to do so either until one side wipes out the other or the end of time (whichever comes first).[/QUOTE]
Again, and it's glaringly obvious, that you have some sort of hatred. You really believe that the Palestinians live to fight? I think you have some very etched world views. Obviously Israel also commits horrible things to the Palestinian people, and the Palestinians also commit horrible things to the Israeli's, but you seem to not understand that. War is war, and all's fair in war, but it's fucked up to no belief, and if no one stands up to both sides to say "enough", then we are just animals.
I can only do so much as to stand up on forums [img]http://sa.tweek.us/emots/images/emot-sigh.gif[/img]
[QUOTE=Chippays;13153170]It's because I don't want to argue with someone so indoctrinated combined with the fact I don't give a shit, you dolt. I absolutely love how you start up the personal attacks when I don't address your post though. Maybe you should look up "irony" before you accuse someone else of 'Ad Hominem', 'Strawmen' and other big words you don't use correctly.
You can't win an argument if no one bothers to argue with you. Tommorow we'll cover how many feet are in a mile and addition! Unless you want to go over the definition of Shahada for another day, it's tough learning definitons, isn't it?[/QUOTE]
Well, I already explained to you the context in which Shahada is used, and what it means to Palestinians, regardless of it's dictionary definition and what it means to the majority of less extreme Muslims, but I guess you didn't bother to read it.
and hey, I wasn't attacking you. I was listing one of two possible reasons why you can't be bothered to make any sort of argument... I wasn't making a judgement on which one it was ;)
On top of that, I may make a personal attack or two about your unwillingness to engage in any sort of debate, which, if you were right and I was wrong, you would do, because if you had facts on your side you would be able to show me them in the course of the discussion, and I would gladly change my viewpoints in the face of OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE. Add to that the fact that while I may make a personal attack, I also present mounds and mounds of facts backed by evidence, where-as you engage in nothing BUT personal attacks, and the clever little "definition of is" deflection
[QUOTE=heatsketch;13153292]Well, I already explained to you the context in which Shahada is used, and what it means to Palestinians, regardless of it's dictionary definition and what it means to the majority of less extreme Muslims, but I guess you didn't bother to read it.
and hey, I wasn't attacking you. I was listing one of two possible reasons why you can't be bothered to make any sort of argument... I wasn't making a judgement on which one it was ;)
On top of that, I may make a personal attack or two about your unwillingness to engage in any sort of debate, which, if you were right and I was wrong, you would do, because if you had facts on your side you would be able to show me them in the course of the discussion, and I would gladly change my viewpoints in the face of OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE. Add to that the fact that while I may make a personal attack, I also present mounds and mounds of facts backed by evidence, where-as you engage in nothing BUT personal attacks, and the clever little "definition of is" deflection[/QUOTE]
I did read it, and I told you that's not how definitions work. We went over this.
You seem to be a little slow, so let me explain this to you as simply as I can. I have better things to do than argue about zionism with someone so indoctrinated he thinks that Shahada translates into "Martyring yourself forAllah."
Tell me if you need this explained in smaller words.
Also, it's funny that you say "Night, all" and then keep on posting. It's like a reflection of your arguments :)
[QUOTE=Chippays;13153323]I did read it, and I told you that's not how definitions work. We went over this.
You seem to be a little slow, so let me explain this to you as simply as I can. I have better things to do than argue about zionism with someone so indoctrinated he thinks that Shahada translates into "Martyring yourself forAllah."
Tell me if you need this explained in smaller words.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for letting us all know you don't pay attention, don't read, and proving exactly what he said.
[QUOTE=Karskin;13153368]Thanks for letting us all know you don't pay attention, don't read, and proving exactly what he said.[/QUOTE]
For someone who accuses people of trolling as much as you do you sure do a lot of it.
[QUOTE=thisispain;13153271]Again, and it's glaringly obvious, that you have some sort of hatred. You really believe that the Palestinians live to fight? I think you have some very etched world views. Obviously Israel also commits horrible things to the Palestinian people, and the Palestinians also commit horrible things to the Israeli's, but you seem to not understand that. War is war, and all's fair in war, but it's fucked up to no belief, and if no one stands up to both sides to say "enough", then we are just animals.
I can only do so much as to stand up on forums [img]http://sa.tweek.us/emots/images/emot-sigh.gif[/img][/QUOTE]
You are wrong, though. Israel does not do "horrible" things to the palestinians.
Israel does NOT go up to Palestinians and shoot them dead, and blow them up, for no reason, without provocation.
Israelis does NOT walk into palestinian restaurants filled unarmed diners and self detonate, with the SOLE PURPOSE of killing innocents, and then Celebrate afterwards (the same way they did after 9/11) [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sbarro_restaurant_suicide_bombing#Palestinian_exhibit[/url]
Israeli's are NOT in the habit of dragging little girls outside, killing their fathers in front of them, and then crushing the little girls skull with the butts of their rifles
Israeli's TREAT THEIR ENEMIES IN THEIR OWN HOSPITALS [url]http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/981272.html[/url]. They provide them with FOOD, WATER, FUEL, ELECTRICITY, ETC. These are not the actions of "evil", "genocidal", "atrocity committing" "fascists"
Palestinians, and obviously not all of them, but MANY, MANY of them, especially the younger ones who have known of Hamas their entire lives, are so thoroughly indoctrinated, that yes, they live to fight. Look up Umm Nidal, one of many mothers who raises children SOLELY to fight. Look up Hamas summer camps. Look up the kind of things broadcast on palestinian TV, and taught in Palestinian textbooks.
For that matter, look up the Ramallah lynching, look up Tuvia Grossman, look up Tahi Hatiel, look up Einat Haran. I could go on all night, and I would list many more as well as source them for you guys but I'm tired and this really is my last message.
Goodnight, and I'll be back tomorrow mabye
Again, what? You keep this illusion of Israel being some kind of heroic nation.
And they treat their enemies because they have to, it's in several articles and for a country that tightly wounded with the UN, it's important to do so...
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