• Israel Thread [STOP MAKING NEW ONES]
    3,126 replies, posted
They are actually fighting over the land that god promised to the jews (israel). They have been fighting since Israel was born in 1948.
[QUOTE=Karskin;13195354]So I see logic is not your strong point. [B]First off, Israels #1 priority is Israelis. Second, they are taking precautions, except you seem to ignore every post that states and explains that.[/B] [/QUOTE] You keep saying this as though it justifies all the civilian casualties. "Well Israel needs to take care of it's own citizens" I guess it's absolutely fine now then guys!! Newest figures state that almost 1/3 of the casualties are children, it would be conservative to suggest that the civilian casualty rate lies at around 50% [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7824288.stm]Source[/url] Way to take precautions.
[QUOTE=radioactive;13195310]Well Anonim, you don't get it do you? People Die almost every 3 seconds and yet you make a fuss about some people that have been fighting since the dawn of time.[/QUOTE] Oh, people die. Let's not have an opinion against an oppression of a people then, because hey, people die and are worthless, right? Also, they haven't been fucking fighting since "the dawn of time". They've been fighting for a little over 60 years. Keep in mind that the Jews were thrown out of their homeland by the Romans. Then when Islam came to Palestine, a lot of Jews were let back in to live in equal conditions, as long as they paid the obligatory charity tax of Islam that Muslims pay as well. At the same time, Jews were being prosecuted and fucked over in Europe, while they were being treated well in Palestine. And now the Israelis are fucking over the Palestinians.
The UN should find those tiny balls of theirs and go apeshit all over there.
[QUOTE=Anonim] Yeah, so just pre-emptively kill them off right now, right? I'm sure that won't breed any more hate, and I'm sure that they are simply indoctrinated at their UN schools. The hate doesn't at all come from Israel actually fucking them over -- that would be preposterous![/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Karskin;13195302]You need to go back and read the thread. Start at page 40, then when you get back, you will be taken seriously.[/QUOTE] What special significance does page 40 have in regards to education? What he said is right, bombing people makes them hate you. UN schools teach UN approved material. [QUOTE=Karskin;13195354]So I see logic is not your strong point. First off, Israels #1 priority is Israelis. Second, they are taking precautions, except you seem to ignore every post that states and explains that. Also yes, there were reports of supply trucks turning around because they had nowhere to unload their supplies. You also seemed to ignore the whole part about Hamas. Also you're right, they gave it up to Israel. I don't see how that changes the fact that it was British, and the Palestinians held no claim there, there were Jews and Arabs living side by side there and there was no declared Palestine.[/QUOTE] So if I ran a country and militants killed one of ours citizens it would be perfectly ok for me to fire chemical weapons into their capital? Parts of Gaza have become unaccessable do to military engagements, the trucks can't drive straight through Hamas gunmen and IDF forces to access bombed areas through bombed roads. Please cite your source for Hamas with holding aid, then I will reply. Britian held that area after the Ottoman empire was taken apart. People living in the region had no claim of being British. The trouble only started after Jews started moving there to escape the holocaust and other persecution. I've got shit to do anyway.
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;13194683] 6. I don't think you quite understand this. Militants are not the army. Militants live in a house. At the end of the go home, and then they are blown up. The Gaza strip is very densely populated. Either the launch site or the place they go home to WILL be near a residental area. They probably do not, infact purposefully choose their launch sites so that they are right next to a juicy civilian target. The fact is, the launch site will be need a hospital, school ect whether they like it or not. [/QUOTE] No, Hamas is well known to have always used hospitals and schools for bases of operation. They store weapons and ammunition in them as well as use them for staging areas. And of course more recently use them as launch sites for indirect fire weaponry. It's their MO.
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;13195494]What special significance does page 40 have in regards to education? What he said is right, bombing people makes them hate you.[B] UN schools teach UN approved material.[/B] So if I ran a country and militants killed one of ours citizens it would be perfectly ok for me to fire chemical weapons into their capital? Parts of Gaza have become unaccessable do to military engagements, the trucks can't drive straight through Hamas gunmen and IDF forces to access bombed areas through bombed roads. Please cite your source for Hamas with holding aid, then I will reply. Britian held that area after the Ottoman empire was taken apart. People living in the region had no claim of being British. The trouble only started after Jews started moving there to escape the holocaust and other persecution.[/QUOTE] There is information of the bolded part starting from back there.
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;13195494]So if I ran a country and militants killed one of ours citizens it would be perfectly ok for me to fire chemical weapons into their capital? [/QUOTE] If those militants are government supported then they are [I]commandos[/I] or [I]special forces[/I]. So yes. Their government has launched an attack against your civilian population. There is no better reason to turn around and rape them royally.
[QUOTE=KillerTV;13195392]You keep saying this as though it justifies all the civilian casualties. "Well Israel needs to take care of it's own citizens" I guess it's absolutely fine now then guys!! Newest figures state that almost 1/3 of the casualties are children, it would be conservative to suggest that the civilian casualty rate lies at around 50% [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7824288.stm]Source[/url] Way to take precautions.[/QUOTE] Except child is a pretty loose term for anyone under 18. There are early teenagers there who are in the militia and police force. As I said before, not everything everywhere is done like it's done in the Good Ole' US of A.
[QUOTE=KillerTV;13194973]Guess that's alright then, those kids who had nothing to do with Hamas coming into power deserve it!!! [B] Have you seen the videos of the brainwashed kids? Yes I can't blame the kids for it but look at what the hamas have turned them into! (I can post a video if you want)[/B] Honestly this is the entire point. No, you don't. Why should innocents be harmed because of the actions of hamas? [B] Well ,we cant be super specific with these bombs!!! they hide under residential areas! what should we do? invent under ground bombs, seriously man, what the fuck are you thinking? we intentionally bomb the whole neighborhood? we don't by the way, we bomb a house, but we always warn before! Either they're stupid enough to stay or the hamas forces them, HAMAS ONLY WORKS IN RESIDENTIAL AREAS, so what, now that they do that, Israel can't attack? Be realistic. Come on, you seem intelligent.[/B] Punching hamas in the face is fine, they need it, and I completely back military action against Hamas by Israel. [B]So... Good.[/B] Oh dear look at the truth, the nationalism coming through now. [B]I didn't understand that.[/B] Nobody is ignoring Israeli casualites, they have had to put up with a lot, and the attacks are awful and need to be stopped, but stop the deferrence, the issue here is how completely disproportionate it is. [B]Nobody is ignoring Israeli casualties? the fact that there wasn't a sudden boom in the media across the world and all of a sudden the world feels sorry for the Israeli civilian casualties. That's why all of a sudden this thread busted open, and the main issue here is if the hamas does use human shields (which they do) or if Israel kills civilians for fun[/B] hamas are smuggling rockets so palestinians shouldn't eat. [B]They can, we send the food ! - and we should stop! because no matter how much we help and support their COUNTRY, which, according to history I aint never seen a country, for years be fed and watered by another country, and gives electricity. You must understand that the more smuggling they do, the more casualties Israel has, see if you'd care about some other person you hate eat when your city is getting fucked the fuck up by some terrorists.[/B] You're joking aren't you, there's no way you can be serious about this. [B] You think they are happy with the Hamas being their government? if you look around you'll see the they suffer and they want to speak but they are afraid, just like in Syria and Lebanon, and every other country, whoever speaks, will be found dead, believe that! That's why you never hear anything!![/B] That's in the past, frankly I'm not surprised the Palestinians weren't happy that Israel was muscled into the middle east, but at any rate, nowadays Hamas is willing to trade a ceasefire for the old 1967 borders. [B]Ya, we already gave them more space, and they used it to fire rockets even deeper into Israel, Same mistake again? I don't think so, give us Gilad Shalit back and we'll consider about thinking about dreaming about wanting to dream about considering a ceasefire. We write the rules now, not them.[/B] Also, it seems you're getting more and more nationalist and belligerent as this thread goes along. I'ma look those words up tomorrow [/QUOTE] if you re-read you're quoute you'll see i answered in side because it's easier for me.
Where did I mention weapons storage? Yes, weapons stores are dug under schools. But does that mean you bomb it if it is being used as a refugee camp?
Why not.
We even Call their homes and send messages to the mobile phones, and drop papers saying move away!!! We really try to not hit civilians because we know how the world feels about Palestinians. [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rw51gSn3KE[/url] Human Shields: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y[/url] - Confession! 2 short videos [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J08GqXMr3YE[/url] Saving children my ass, that last part in the video wasn't saving the kid or anything, it's all human shields. More: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ou8nNs-RnI&feature=related[/url] the girl was supposed to go to be taken care of in a hospital! and she wanted to blow up! savages. at 3:25 I'm just, mentioning. You know, trying to prove the human shield fact that became a theory\lie or something.
[QUOTE=OzOMighty;13195912]We even Call their homes and send messages to the mobile phones, and drop papers saying move away!!! We really try to not hit civilians because we know how the world feels about Palestinians.[/QUOTE] Wait, so you're only trying to avoid hitting the innocent Palestinians because the rest of the world said it's bad to kill civilians? So if no one was there to restrain you, you'd have them all slaughtered or what?
[QUOTE=OzOMighty;13195912]We even Call their homes and send messages to the mobile phones, and drop papers saying move away!!! We really try to not hit civilians because we know how the world feels about Palestinians.[/QUOTE] Yet people are still being killed. The measures aren't working. It could have something to do with dropping large bombs into a walled in city. [b]PALESTINIANS ARE EVEN AFRAID TO GO TO UN REFUNGEE CAMPS NOW, BECAUSE EVEN THOSE HAVE BEEN BOMBED.[/b] Where the fuck are they supposed to go? [quote]Human Shields:[/quote] [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y[/url] - Confession! That is translated by a very very biased channel. Why would anyone trust that translation? [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J08GqXMr3YE[/url] [quote]Saving children my ass, that last part in the video wasn't saving the kid or anything, it's all human shields.[/quote] It kind of looked like he was picking him up off the street and dumping him with a bunch of other people. I didn't see him hold the kid infront of him. [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ou8nNs-RnI&feature=related[/url] [quote]the girl was supposed to go to be taken care of in a hospital! and she wanted to blow up! savages. at 3:25[/quote] Savages? I wonder why she wanted to be a suicide bomber. Could it have something to do with the whole oppression thing? Hamas uses mentally ill ect people as suicide bombers, yeah, hardly makes her some kind of savage though. Even the fact that you used the word savages reveals alot. Edit - Watching that "human shield" video again it looks like he is grabbing the kid off the street and dumping him with some other civilians. Look at the people hiding in next to the wall where he grabs the kid. Are you physcially blind or are you so nationalist you see what you want to see?
This war is nonsense
[QUOTE=OzOMighty;13195912]We even Call their homes and send messages to the mobile phones, and drop papers saying move away!!! [/QUOTE] ... And then we bomb their houses to piles of smoldering rubble!!! I don't see the problem!!!
Israel is Hamas with more weapons and a world superpower backing. Seriously, they've basically become that which they claim to hate, and are acting just plain horrible to the people in Gaza.
This situation is exactly why countries should not be run by religion. It creates huge cluster fucks.
[QUOTE=SnakeHead;13197200]This situation is exactly why countries should not be run by religion. It creates huge cluster fucks.[/QUOTE] Religion hasn't got a lot to do with it. It's politics.
[QUOTE=Taishu;13194660]Lack of empathy is one of the signs of psychopathic behaviour.[/QUOTE] Psychopathy is a name given to behaviors that do not fit in with a societies dominant moral code. Lack of empathy is efficiency. Please keep pseudoscience and personal moral codes to yourself, they have no bearing on the situation at hand. [QUOTE=SeamanStains;13194683]No wonder you don't get where I am coming from. There isn't much point replying to you if this is how you feel. (or not feel)[/QUOTE] It isn't a moral issue. Nothing that is occurring now relates to what you consider to be "right" or "wrong." Do you always argue [i]at[/i] someone once you've been disproven? That can use a rest too. [QUOTE=-ZeeBo-;13196812]This war is nonsense[/QUOTE] This [i]conflict[/i] is the result of advanced military tactics failing to work outside of the public's view. Hamas is a government pretending to be a guerrilla force. They came from a people's movement, they now need to maintain that method of operation. To do otherwise- to use the faculties granted to them by being a government- is to allow themselves to be defeated. They are militarily weak- stepping up into the role of a "real" government means establishing "hard", easily located targets, and Israel could destroy them quickly should they do so. The only way they stand a chance is hiding and striking. Fighting for the opinions of others. As General Sir Rupert Smith would probably put it, "telling a better story." Meanwhile, Israel knows it has no hard target to strike. Hamas has no capitol, no barracks, no great fleet or airforce or standing army, no industrial complex whatsoever. Hamas has nothing but manpower, and this manpower is hidden amongst the people. But Israel also understands something Hamas doesn't, because they learned it the hard way themselves before- this "stage" is empty. Nobody is watching the show. You have an empty arena and suddenly tactics based on a watching crowd- what Hamas is using- have no meaning. It means Israel doesn't have to respect Hamas, it means Israel doesn't have to play with Hamas for constantly shifting objectives. They are not being watched, and so the tactics shift from the modern to the primitive and proven. Proto-industrial warfare between horribly mismatched sides. Your opponent is a child, giving in to him is infeasible. He has no rights, and must do as you say. If he will not, you will punish him, with increasing severity, until he does. This can continue as long as you can support it, and Israel can keep it up for a long time. So it's deceptively simple, really- it's a mismatch of tactics. One side relies on the concept that someone is watching, and ability to play to the crowd will bring victory. Until somebody in the audience cheers for them, they'll keep going, constantly increasing the drama. And there's always a way to increase the drama, so long as they've got people, which they will keep getting, because they aren't a government at heart, they're a people's movement. Meanwhile, the other side relies on the concept that if you kill enough people, the enemy has to give up. It's been proven true in countless wars, but it also takes forever. So who wins? I'm siding with the large military and simple tactics, because they're funded from the outside and thus have very little reason to give in- nothing Hamas does can really harm them so much as irritate them. If Israel ever stopped getting outside funding, though- if Hamas really did holler loud enough that the U.S. gave up on them- it'd be up in the air. I'm willing to be Israel could turn that back into a drama of their own, but to me, there's no point in speculating about what might happen after an even that's almost guaranteed not to. The entire region has been summarily ignored for years now, and we have every reason to believe it will continue to be ignored in the future. But it's far from "nonsense", as I hope I've pointed out- it's quite easy to understand both sides here, and why things continue to go the way they do.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;13197381] It isn't a moral issue. Nothing that is occurring now relates to what you consider to be "right" or "wrong." Do you always argue [i]at[/i] someone once you've been disproven? That can use a rest too.[/quote] Disproven? I don't know where you got that idea. Lets just agree to disagree as to whether empathy should be factored into "logic" or not. Come to think of it, your screenname fits pretty well.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;13197381] This [i]conflict[/i] is the result of [b]advanced military tactics.[/b] failing to work outside of the public's view. *Wall of text that can be summarised with "bomb them until they don't exist while no one cares" [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;13196701]Yet people are still being killed. The measures aren't working. It could have something to do with dropping large bombs into a walled in city. [b]PALESTINIANS ARE EVEN AFRAID TO GO TO UN REFUNGEE CAMPS NOW, BECAUSE EVEN THOSE HAVE BEEN BOMBED.[/b] Where the fuck are they supposed to go? [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y[/url] - Confession! That is translated by a very very biased channel. Why would anyone trust that translation? [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J08GqXMr3YE[/url] It kind of looked like he was picking him up off the street and dumping him with a bunch of other people. I didn't see him hold the kid infront of him. [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ou8nNs-RnI&feature=related[/url] Savages? I wonder why she wanted to be a suicide bomber. Could it have something to do with the whole oppression thing? Hamas uses mentally ill ect people as suicide bombers, yeah, hardly makes her some kind of savage though. Even the fact that you used the word savages reveals alot. Edit - Watching that "human shield" video again it looks like he is grabbing the kid off the street and dumping him with some other civilians. Look at the people hiding in next to the wall where he grabs the kid. Are you physcially blind or are you so nationalist you see what you want to see?[/QUOTE] Wow ignorance. The people who suicide bomb are generally richer, better educated, and come from more stable families than the one who don't.
[QUOTE=Taishu;13197275]Religion hasn't got a lot to do with it. It's politics.[/QUOTE] Religion has absolutely everything to do with it.
Where did I say. [quote= What I didn't say]"Most suicide bombers are poor, uneducated orphans."[/quote] I just said it is a fact Hamas does use vulnerable people as suicide bombers.
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;13197941]Where did I say. I just said it is a fact Hamas does use vulnerable people as suicide bombers.[/QUOTE] Except that isn't true at all [url]http://economiclogic.blogspot.com/2008/09/who-becomes-suicide-bomber.html[/url] [url]http://www.likud.nl/press330.html[/url]
[QUOTE=Karskin;13197896]Religion has absolutely [b]everything[/b] to do with it.[/QUOTE] No. It doesn't. Religion is used to gain support and give reasons. If you are a religious authority and someone is a fundamentalist, if you say god says do this they wil do it. Politics has everything to do with it, religion is a tool that makes it easier to get people on your side. Islam - God wants you to kill Jews. Judism - Muslims hate Judism and want to kill you. BAM! You have convinced fundamentalists that firing rockets at people or dropping bombs on people is right.
[quote=Karskin]Except that isn't true at all[/quote] Yes, it is true and it is a tactic they occasionally employ. [url]http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3503275,00.html[/url]
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;13197842]Disproven? I don't know where you got that idea.[/QUOTE] Let's walk back a ways. You claim I'm racist and imply the world is not apathetic towards the suffering of the pakistani people. I present the accepted definition of racism, and note how what I said did not fit that definition. This disproved your point, and you presented no counterpoint. As for the implied point, that the world does care, I am proven right by the inactivity of the rest of the world. Burden of proof that the rest of the world cares is on you, you provided none. This is not something we agree to disagree on, this is a thing you said being shot down and a thing you implied being killed before it ever got moving. You lost. Present counterpoints or drop it. [QUOTE=SeamanStains;13197884]"This conflict is the result of advanced military tactics. failing to work outside of the public's view." *Wall of text that can be summarised with "bomb them until they don't exist while no one cares"[/QUOTE] You have the reading comprehension of a newt, apparently. I'm not advocating anything, I'm explaining both sides' rationale and who I think will likely be the winner based on past precedent. What [i]I[/i] advocate and what [i]I'd[/i] do are irrelevant. This is a military issue, I am discussing the present military aspects of it. If you've got no intelligent counterpoint based on that, don't reply. If you'd like a bit of education on modern warfare, you can listen to this lecture: [url]http://www.bath.ac.uk/lmf/download/037-podbath-RupertSmit/17577.mp3[/url] [QUOTE=SeamanStains;13197842]whether empathy should be factored into "logic" or not.[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic[/url] Demonstration and subsequent inference. Demonstrate to me proof that "empathy" has place in a military affair outside the public view. Until then, it doesn't have a logical place in this discussion, and the only rational place it has is in discussing hypothetical scenarios.
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