[QUOTE=markfu;13212633]I think they don't want to send in troops because it'd be in vain. Hamas is in a heavily entrenched position in an urban area. The number of ambush and choke points would probably be incredibly high. And like any army they'd rather kill some civilians they have no connection to rather than getting their soldiers killed.
Also for all we know the elections were rigged. I'm not saying they were but considering Hamas's power I wouldn't put it past them.
I also find it funny that a lot of the extremists on this site ended up banned.[/QUOTE]
Too bad. It's the soldiers job to die if they must. Don't fucking shell civilians, are they worth less than soldiers?
Also, possible, but no evidence.
[QUOTE=Endzone;13213881]Don't fucking shell civilians, are they worth less than soldiers?[/QUOTE]
yes, they are worth about 63% less
[QUOTE=Wolf_Marine;13213398]I'm unsure if anyone knows of this, so I may be adding a barrel of gasoline or a bunch of dynamite to the fire.
Joe the Plumber is in Israel as a reporter. If you can find more links indicating this, go ahead. I'm finding this extremely amusing and entertaining, especially the outrage and chaos this is producing
[url]http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/columnist/raasch/2009-01-12-raasch-column-01122009_N.htm[/url]
[url]http://news.aol.com/political-machine/2009/01/07/joe-the-plumber-reporter-is-off-to-israel/[/url]
[url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/12/joe-the-plumber-fights-wi_n_157239.html[/url]
[url]http://michellemalkin.com/2009/01/11/do-you-think-this-is-normal-the-way-you-cover-this-conflict/[/url][/QUOTE]
Joe the fucking plumber can go fucking stuff a plunger up his vagina. I'm sick of all this bullshit about Joe the fucking plumber.
also way to use white phosphorous Israel real classy
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;13213923]also way to use white phosphorous Israel real classy[/QUOTE]
Haha, what country doesn't nowadays?
[QUOTE=doggunn;13213646]I read that, and I lol'd hard.[/QUOTE]
Really?Well from the way you are talking about the whole thing i though you where a big fan of his, Zion.
[QUOTE=Fred;13214008]Really?Well from the way you are talking about the whole thing i though you where a big fan of his, Zion.[/QUOTE]
I cannot stand JTP. At all.
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;13213198]Their objective is to "raise the banner of God over every inch of Palestine raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned." and also eliminate zionism.
That is their offical charter anyway.
[B]Yes, that is their first objective, and of course they're going to say that. Except that in a Muslim state, non-Muslims are taxed for being non-Muslim, and a Muslim has the right to kill or steal or basically what treat non-Muslims like how you think Israel is treating Palestinians, except much worse. [/B]
You may also remember this. One of the links says that Hamas leaders are not extremists themselves, but employ the tactic of using Islam to recruit extemists, and the other lists some of the methods which may be used to recruit them.
[B]Except being a Muslim, and using your faith to get other people to blow up school buses is a pretty fucking extreme example. Just because the leaders themselves aren't blowing themselves up doesn't make them any less extremist, they need to be around to push Islam on more people. It's called logic.[/B]
Breaking ceasefires? The ceasefires are more like peace deals. Israel opens the boarders, Hamas stops firing. Unfortunately in practise the boarders are still clamped shut and Hamas is still firing rockets, but at a much lower rate.
[B]No matter what Israel will do, Hamas won't stop firing rockets at them. They've never stopped, and they never will stop until they or Israel are dead. That's the mindset they have.[/B]
Turning down land offers? Can you give some examples?
[B][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_2000_Summit[/url][/B]
They wanted action to be taken, that is why they elected Hamas.
[B]Except at Hamas rallies, they pretty much only talk about eliminating the Jews, the west, and non-Muslims. I know people who have come from Palestine who threw rocks and firebombs at IDF forces for games when they were kids. It's what they were taught to do. If you saw the kinds of things Hamas does it it's own people, you would know any decent people would never elect such trash unless it was for a very specific reason. The action that they wanted to be taken was to attack Israel.[/B]
No one is defending Hamas.
[B]Good, they are scum, but by defending Palestine, you are defending Hamas. By saying there are no religious implications, you are defending Hamas. By saying that Hamas's objective is to spread peace and to co-exist, you are defending Hamas.[/B]
Not agreeing with your views = retarded?
[B]Learn to read because that isn't what I said at all. I said that saying there is no religious factor in this war is. It's blatantly obvious that there are religious implications by everything that I've said. Even if you only agree with one, that means there are religious implications. Here's an easy one regarding their tactics. Why would any group blow themselves up if they didn't think they were going to a paradise with 72 virgins?[/B]
From most of the interviews conducted with Palestinian civilians the general feeling is not that they hate Europe. Hamas is not going to randomly bomb Europe either, since that doesn't advance their goals.
[B][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe#Terrorism[/url][/B]
No, their agenda isn't to dominate the planet. Why shouldn't they be allowed to spread their faith to people?
[B]Actually it says exactly what I said in the Qu'ran.[/B]
Also I find your new avatar pretty funny. Your posts are hardly enlightening and I have yet to see much logic in them. Mostly blindly defending Israel without a thought as to whether it may not be black and white.
[B]Because you lack the brain capacity to understand something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.[/B][/QUOTE]
There you go, read the bold
[QUOTE=doggunn;13214057]I cannot stand JTP. At all.[/QUOTE]
I like how you didn't include JTF in there.
Not that i needed this to know you where a Zion.
[QUOTE=Fred;13214118]I like how you didn't include JTF in there.
Not that i needed this to know you where a Zion.[/QUOTE]
What the fuck are you talking about?
JTP = Joe the Plumber
[url]http://jtf.org/[/url]
I know jtp stands for Joe.
[QUOTE=Taishu;13213004]This current conflict between Israel and Palestine is a political one, not religious. And I doubt anyone here actually supports Hamas, I sure as hell don't. However I do believe that Israel is the main aggressor in this, and are also the ones currently holding the ability for a peaceful resolution (though I doubt they'll actually try to initiate negotiations).
Note how only 13 Israelis have died, and only 3 of those were civilians, whereas over 900 Palestinians have already lost their lives. Plus thousands of homes, hospitals and other civilian facilities which have been destroyed.[/QUOTE]
It is very much a religious conflict. In fact, the entire reason Hamas is attacking Israel is because of religion. Have you read their Charter? It doesn't sound like you have, or you would know this.
[url]http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm[/url]
"Hamas" is short for "The Covenant of the [b]Islamic[/b] Resistance Movement"
I'll give you a few quotes:
[i]"Praise be unto Allah, to whom we resort for help, and whose forgiveness, guidance and support we seek; Allah bless the Prophet and grant him salvation, his companions and supporters, and to those who carried out his message and adopted his laws - everlasting prayers and salvation as long as the earth and heaven will last. "[/i]
...doesn't sound very religious to me.... >_>
[i]"This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast [b]Arab and Islamic world[/b], until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised."[/i]
Notice the reference to the "vast Arab and Islamic world", and how the victory is "Allah's victory" and not the Palestinian peoples victory.
[i][b]The Movement's programme is Islam. From it, it draws its ideas, ways of thinking and understanding of the universe, life and man.[/b] It resorts to it for judgement in all its conduct, and it is inspired by it for guidance of its steps.[/i]
[i]The Islamic Resistance Movement found itself at a time when Islam has disappeared from life. Thus rules shook, concepts were upset, values changed and evil people took control, oppression and darkness prevailed, cowards became like tigers: homelands were usurped, people were scattered and were caused to wander all over the world, the state of justice disappeared and the state of falsehood replaced it. Nothing remained in its right place. Thus, when Islam is absent from the arena, everything changes. From this state of affairs the incentives are drawn.[/i]
[i]The Islamic Resistance Movement is [b]one of the wings of Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine[/b]. Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a [b]universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times.[/b] It is characterised by its deep understanding, accurate comprehension and its complete embrace of all Islamic concepts of all aspects of life, culture, creed, politics, economics, education, society, justice and judgement, the spreading of Islam, education, art, information, science of the occult and conversion to Islam.[/i]
But of course, this is a [i]political[/i] conflict, and it has [i]nothing[/i] to do with religion.
Israel is not the main aggressor, Hamas is. Hamas was launching rockets into Israel throughout December, the entire time DARING them (literally, their spokemen were going on tv and DARING them) to respond. Now that Israel has, it is suddenly "evil". Where were all the people condemning Israel when Hamas was using ambulences n their operations
[url]http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2249484/hamas_use_un_ambulance_to_smuggle_terrorists_in_gaza/[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAR_Iwq9-R0[/url]
Where were they when Hamas raided trucks bringing their people aid?
[url]http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231424932109&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull[/url]
[url]http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3504227,00.html[/url]
[url]http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/2804[/url]
Where were they when hamas uses schools, mosques, and hospitals as bases and staging points and uses people as human shields?
[url]http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/01/terrorists-launch-missiles-at-israel.html[/url]
[url]http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=38440[/url]
[url]http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/Hamas+exploitation+of+civilians+as+human+shields+-+Photographic+evidence.htm[/url]
[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6162494.stm[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYtij4Q7sE[/url]
[url]http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054569.html[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHhs9ihSmbU[/url]
They were silent.
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;13213198]
Turning down land offers? Can you give some examples?
[/QUOTE]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_2000_Summit#Territory[/url]
Oh, and
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em-MnAYiEWk[/url]
Quote from that vid:
"What is better, peace and full rights for the Palestinian people, or Shahada"
"Shahada!"
[url]http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=2065891[/url]
A bit of the extreme opposite of Islam, but he's completely right.
[QUOTE=Karskin] Yes, that is their first objective, and of course they're going to say that. Except that in a Muslim state, non-Muslims are taxed for being non-Muslim, and a Muslim has the right to kill or steal or basically what treat non-Muslims like how you think Israel is treating Palestinians, except much worse.
[b]EVERYONE pays to that tax, Muslim or otherwise. They are not taxed for being non-Muslim but because everyone pays into the religious institutions.[/b]
You may also remember this. One of the links says that Hamas leaders are not extremists themselves, but employ the tactic of using Islam to recruit extemists, and the other lists some of the methods which may be used to recruit them.
[b]As I said, it is a tool. They know they can get people to blow them selves up by exploiting their faith. It isn't Judism vs Islam it is Palestine vs Israel with both sides using religion to justify their actions and exploit people.[/b]
Except being a Muslim, and using your faith to get other people to blow up school buses is a pretty fucking extreme example. Just because the leaders themselves aren't blowing themselves up doesn't make them any less extremist, they need to be around to push Islam on more people. It's called logic.
No matter what Israel will do, Hamas won't stop firing rockets at them. They've never stopped, and they never will stop until they or Israel are dead. That's the mindset they have.
[b]Why would they stop? Israel should understand that the rockets aren't going to stop 100% because there are extremist nuts in Palestine who will fire rockets at Israel no matter what. Groups like Islamic Jihad and such too. A 98% decrease in rocket attacks seems a fair trade off for free boarders, yet they still didn't open them. [/b]
Turning down land offers? Can you give some examples?
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_2000_Summit[/url]
[b] No wonder, Israel was still going to hold control of the crossing. Did they seriously think Palestine would accept that?[/b]
Except at Hamas rallies, they pretty much only talk about eliminating the Jews, the west, and non-Muslims. I know people who have come from Palestine who threw rocks and firebombs at IDF forces for games when they were kids. It's what they were taught to do. If you saw the kinds of things Hamas does it it's own people, you would know any decent people would never elect such trash unless it was for a very specific reason. The action that they wanted to be taken was to attack Israel.
[b]Yes, the action they wanted to be taken was to attack Israel.[/b]
Good, they are scum, but by defending Palestine, you are defending Hamas. By saying there are no religious implications, you are defending Hamas. By saying that Hamas's objective is to spread peace and to co-exist, you are defending Hamas.
[b]No, I'm not defending Hamas. I'm condemning Israels conduct and their abuse of Palestinian civilians.[/b]
Learn to read because that isn't what I said at all. I said that saying there is no religious factor in this war is. It's blatantly obvious that there are religious implications by everything that I've said. Even if you only agree with one, that means there are religious implications. Here's an easy one regarding their tactics. Why would any group blow themselves up if they didn't think they were going to a paradise with 72 virgins?
[b]I'm not saying there are no religious implications, just that the REASON behind the war ISN'T religion. It's simple another weapon in both countries arsenals.[/b]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe#Terrorism[/url]
[b]Palestine isn't Afghanistan.[/b]
Actually it says exactly what I said in the Qu'ran.
[b] Religious texts say alot of shit. The Qu'ran also talks about co-existing and tolerating other religions and cultures. [/b]
Because you lack the brain capacity to understand something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
[b]Disagreeing with you = retarded. There is no need to throw insults around to be honest, when discussing something. If someone started mouthing off like that when they weren't behind their computer screen I would
Not
Be
Pleased[/b]
[/quote]
Same I guess.
[QUOTE=Karskin;13214695][url]http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=2065891[/url]
A bit of the extreme opposite of Islam, but he's completely right.[/QUOTE]
Another use of religion as a weapon. Seriously you think the JTF isn't just a little biased in the construction of their media?
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;13215065]EVERYONE pays to that tax, Muslim or otherwise. They are not taxed for being non-Muslim but because everyone pays into the religious institutions.
[B][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya#Application[/url][/B]
As I said, it is a tool. They know they can get people to blow them selves up by exploiting their faith. It isn't Judism vs Islam it is Palestine vs Israel with both sides using religion to justify their actions and exploit people.
[B]Except Israel isn't using Judaism to justify it's position. Also it's pretty much the entire Islamic Middle-East against Israel.[/B]
Why would they stop? Israel should understand that the rockets aren't going to stop 100% because there are extremist nuts in Palestine who will fire rockets at Israel no matter what. Groups like Islamic Jihad and such too. A 98% decrease in rocket attacks seems a fair trade off for free boarders, yet they still didn't open them.
[B]Except Hamas still supported the firing of the rockets, you still need to learn to read because you didn't finish the whole article [I]We recognize that until last week Hamas took efforts to halt rocket attacks by other groups as part of the June 19 ceasefire. However, throughout the ceasefire period other armed groups have continued to intermittently fire rockets from Gaza. As the governing authority in the Gaza Strip, it is your responsibility under international law to prevent such attacks, and to arrest and prosecute those who carry them out. We also urge you to take all necessary measures to curb such unlawful attacks whether or not the current ceasefire remains in place or is extended beyond its December 19 deadline. Security forces under your control in Gaza have also demonstrated an ability to curb rocket fire. On at least two occasions, Hamas security personnel arrested people accused of firing rockets. On July 10 at least three members of the Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades were detained for firing rockets. All were later released however, and no charges were brought against them.[/I][/B]
No wonder, Israel was still going to hold control of the crossing. Did they seriously think Palestine would accept that?
[B]There was free passage for Palestinians except in case of emergency. For a country with no cards to play aside from rocket attacks, that sounds like a pretty fair deal. But no, and I'll tell you why right now. Because if there is no settlement, the Muslims can still have a campaign against Israel, and that's really all they want. Every country but Jordan has denied issuing citizenship or resettling refugees. They Arab countries are the ones keeping them in camps so they can use them to gain support and to demonize Israel. Read this: [url]http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/Articles/The%20Big%20Arab%20Lie.htm[/url]
[/B]
Yes, the action they wanted to be taken was to attack Israel.
[B]So you're agreeing that they just wanted Hamas to attack Israel, which seems like a pretty ridiculous statement if you're trying to defend the actions of the Palestinians, but I respect your honesty.[/B]
No, I'm not defending Hamas. I'm condemning Israels conduct and their abuse of Palestinian civilians.
[B]Read the link I posted above[/B]
I'm not saying there are no religious implications, just that the REASON behind the war ISN'T religion. It's simple another weapon in both countries arsenals.
[B]One, as I said, Israel isn't using religion to try to justify anything. Two, that's still completely wrong.[/B]
Palestine isn't Afghanistan.
[B]Hamas is an Islamic group that is part of the Muslim Brotherhood, which is kind of like an umbrella group for all the extremist Islamic groups. Hamas supports everyone in the Muslim Brotherhood.[/B]
Religious texts say alot of shit. The Qu'ran also talks about co-existing and tolerating other religions and cultures.
[B]Yes, but it in also said in the Qu'ran that Mohammad himself said that he was tricked by the devil to say those things about co-existing. You need to learn the history and the creation of Islam before trying to compare the Qu'ran to other holy books.[/B]
Disagreeing with you = retarded. There is no need to throw insults around to be honest, when discussing something. If someone started mouthing off like that when they weren't behind their computer screen I would
Not
Be
Pleased[/QUOTE]
I'm very afraid of you. Also as I said, I didn't say you were retarded, I said denying religious implications in this conflict if retarded. Refer to everything I have said in my posts to see the extent of the retardation.
[quote=seamanstains;13215088]another use of religion as a weapon. Seriously you think the jtf isn't just a little biased in the construction of their media?[/quote]
learn to read
[QUOTE=TH89;13212837]That is kind of ethically questionable though yeah?[/QUOTE]
And extremely militarily sound, in the absence of a third party. Their own populace would cause a lot of problems for them should they stop using these tactics, far more problems than the three people paying attention right now are capable of causing.
It's ethical from their perspective, sans a neutral party, that's all that matters.
[QUOTE=Uber|nooB;13213634]party hats and cake and champagne for all[/QUOTE]
woohoo
[QUOTE=Uber|nooB;13207462]let us hope he kills many, both hamas and "civilians" alike[/QUOTE]
I'm liking you more and more every time I come in this thread, you know that?
[QUOTE=doggunn;13213993]Haha, what country doesn't nowadays?[/QUOTE]
the US used it in Falluja WOOO GO USA USA USA USA :911:
you see, chemical weapons are justifiable because
anyone else feel like isreal doesn't act jewish
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;13215787]And extremely militarily sound, in the absence of a third party. Their own populace would cause a lot of problems for them should they stop using these tactics, far more problems than the three people paying attention right now are capable of causing.
It's ethical from their perspective, sans a neutral party, that's all that matters.
woohoo
I'm liking you more and more every time I come in this thread, you know that?[/QUOTE]
Slavery is economically sound. Does that make it OK?
And there happens to be a third party, the rest of the fucking world. Hopefully they fucking do something, but regardless.
[QUOTE=Endzone;13216249]Slavery is economically sound. Does that make it OK?
And there happens to be a third party, the rest of the fucking world. Hopefully they fucking do something, but regardless.[/QUOTE]
well, you see, the times were different back then!
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;13216283]well, you see, the times were different back then![/QUOTE]
I know this isn't a serious reply, but I know people do say this, so I just want to say, that makes no fucking sense at all.
[QUOTE=Endzone;13216369]I know this isn't a serious reply, but I know people do say this, so I just want to say, that makes no fucking sense at all.[/QUOTE]
that's why i said it bro
I think the main problem is that people only see in black and white.
Who cares which country you're from, or if you're a jew or not...
I mean, jewish children in Norway, are getting bullied by grown men because of shit happening down there in retard-land.
All this just because of... groups. social and religious groups and angry judgemental people
and then people start cheerleading the different sides, and they totally don't understand how unbelievable fucking stupid they are for doing so. It's like being a console fanboy, except about life and death. Most people doesn't even have a clue what they are talking about
Tl;Dr: People are stupid
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;13215787]And extremely militarily sound, in the absence of a third party. Their own populace would cause a lot of problems for them should they stop using these tactics, far more problems than the three people paying attention right now are capable of causing.[/QUOTE]
i bet you're a blast at parties.
[QUOTE=OzOMighty;13209565]Why, when the palestinians have a humanitarian crisis are then supported by UN, but Gilad Shalit, who clearly lives in a shitty cell hole with shit ass food, doesn't get food, water and medicine like the palestinians, clearly the world is taking side with the terrorist group, this just makes me wish for a terrorist attack on USA or UK again.[/QUOTE]
Gilad Shalit is one person. Nevermind the tens of thousands of Palestinians in Israel held as political prisoners, and don't mind the 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza, 1 million of whom [i]depend on humanitarian aid for survival[/i] (which they aren't getting after Israel's blockade, I should mention). [b][i]We must save this one Israeli! BOMB THE ARABS! >:O[/b][/i]
lol, replies here makes me lol [img]http://sa.tweek.us/emots/images/emot-awesome.gif[/img]
Not to mention Israel keeps "accidentally" blowing up aid convoys when they ARE allowed in (i.e. during the ceasefires).
C'mon guys, [I]Israel is the aggressor here.[/I] The IDF has already admitted that no missiles were fired into Israel during the ceasefire, so who broke the ceasefire? Israel did.
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