[QUOTE=GunFox;13266936]That's fucking [I]awesome[/I] looking.
But again I question "why use it?". It mean a decent HE artillery shell would have flat out killed or wounded people in a much larger area. I just don't understand why these WP shells would be employed for anything outside of area denial (in terms of being used as weapons instead of tools).
Not to mention an HE shell has to be a fraction of the cost. And nobody bats an eye when you tear people to shreds with white hot shrapnel, it's just the second you light somebody on fire...[/QUOTE]
You can't ignore the psychological aspect of this. Israel is dropping shells that will literally burn off your skin if you're caught in it.
[QUOTE=Karskin;13268983]I'll bet my account that Palestine will fire rockets again before the year is out.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://i42.tinypic.com/34hgcbr.png[/img]
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;13268023]too bad the school gave them their GPS coordinates and told them there were refugees inside right before they shelled it; there is literally no excuse.[/QUOTE]
[i]Tank shells aren't guided.[/i] GPS doesn't mean shit if you're claiming you've got an incompetent nut in a poorly equipped tank lobbing dumb shells at something in from of the school.
Ergo, "Oops we missed" can be passed off as valid. If this investigation ever amounts to anything, it will be.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;13268233]also I really really hope that WP picture becomes one of history's great photographs, because it is so damning against Israel considering the story behind it
The fucking ambulance even has "UN" written on it, can't wait until this shit is over with and the media can show the truth in Gaza through photography because Israel really, really needs to be held accountable for this.[/QUOTE]
I would love to see it happen, but one has to be realistic- it won't.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;13270748][i]Tank shells aren't guided.[/i] GPS doesn't mean shit if you're claiming you've got an incompetent nut in a poorly equipped tank lobbing dumb shells at something in from of the school.
Ergo, "Oops we missed" can be passed off as valid. If this investigation ever amounts to anything, it will be.
I would love to see it happen, but one has to be realistic- it won't.[/QUOTE]
it wasn't a tank shell, it was an artillery shell
generally you can aim artillery pretty well; I don't really think they would accidentally fire WP into a school if they knew its location
and it's happened 3 times now, so the "it was an accident" excuse is wearing thin
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;13268023]
Also I'm not optimistic, I'm extremely pessimistic that Obama ain't going to do jack shit about this at all and will condemn Hamas more than he condemns Israel. Dragging the IDF to the Hague is ideal, hopefully the UN will stand up for human rights in this case.[/QUOTE]
Out of curiosity, would you like the US response to be?
Atleast it is over now, as of about 1 hour ago. Estimated death toll stands at around 1,207, half probably being civs.
[QUOTE=GunFox;13271430]Out of curiosity, would you like the US response to be?[/QUOTE]
Stop funding Israel- but the Jewish lobby is way too big in the US for that to be real viable. Any time a politician in America criticizes Israel (hurr our only middle eastern ally on the war on terrists, ironically the greatest regional terrorists are our strongest ally) they're condemned. Plus a majority of Americans feel like Israel is always justified 100% because they're fighting brown people. But you know what? If the United States cut all funding to Israel and quit supporting them, Israel will be a sitting duck entirely cut off from western support. Then, they would be forced to [I]seriously[/I] sit down and work on peace with the rest of the region. The only reason Israel keeps doing this bullshit is because they know they can get away with it. Cut off their lifeline and they won't have a choice.
I'd settle for a US-led call for justice and a massive humanitarian campaign for Gaza, but we all know Obama's just going to say "well, what Israel did was wrong, but Hamas is much worse!". Which is bullshit because Hamas does more to aid Palestine than Israel does (that's a big reason why they were elected). Human shields? They're kind of in a ghetto, where the fuck are they supposed to launch their rockets from? There's nowhere BUT the city. Dead Israelis? The fucking rockets are glorified firecrackers, when they impact concrete all they do is leave a scorchmark. Plus with the blockade, rockets are the only way to fight back against Israeli oppression. Hamas has every right to strike back against Israel's human rights abuses. Does Israel have the "right" to strike back against Hamas rocket attacks? Possibly, but why should they? The rockets hardly even hurt very many Israelis, they aren't a huge threat to Israel's existence. But at this point, there's only one thing Israel can do: lower the embargo, give Palestine the land that Israeli settlers took, and recognize Hamas as a legitimate political entity. Basically, if they stop treating the Palestinians as subhuman, things will improve.
[QUOTE=Karskin;13268983]I'll bet my account that Palestine will fire rockets again before the year is out.[/QUOTE]
Wow, what a risky bet. The chance of a rouge member of Hamas or some other military group firing a weapon is pretty fucking high.
[QUOTE=slogsdon;13271642]Wow, what a risky bet. The chance of a rouge member of Hamas or some other military group firing a weapon is pretty fucking high.[/QUOTE]
Especially considering Israel is [I]not doing anything[/I] about what caused these rocket attacks in the first place. There will still be IDF troops in Gaza during the ceasefire and there will still be a blockade, does Israel really fucking believe Hamas will hold its fire when it pledges "to continue fighting occupation until the IDF leaves"? This is a BULLSHIT ceasefire. Israel knows that Hamas is going to continue fighting as long as the IDF occupies Gaza; this is all so Israel can point to Hamas and say "see? they didn't uphold the ceasefire!!!" and continue to destroy and kill. Israel is horrible and I hope Hamas continues to fight Israeli oppression, since nobody else will.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;13271407]it wasn't a tank shell, it was an artillery shell
generally you can aim artillery pretty well; I don't really think they would accidentally fire WP into a school if they knew its location
and it's happened 3 times now, so the "it was an accident" excuse is wearing thin[/QUOTE]
I thought you were talking about the incident in the link you posted, which says "Israeli tank shells".
Sorry for the mixup.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;13271748]I thought you were talking about the incident in the link you posted, which says "Israeli tank shells."
Sorry for the mixup.[/QUOTE]
i wasn't aware tanks were able to fire WP filled artillery shells sorry my bad
even if it was a tank shell your argument is still stupid because tanks are inherently more accurate than artillery gg
[QUOTE=Bad)-(and;13228511]gg israel, 1000 dead. nice job.[/QUOTE]
pretty good K/D
i'm impressed, but I think america would do better
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;13271757]i wasn't aware tanks were able to fire WP filled artillery shells sorry my bad
even if it was a tank shell your argument is still stupid because tanks are inherently more accurate than artillery gg[/QUOTE]
Your article, not mine.
You weren't referring to this:
[url]http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/20091177657498163.html[/url]
You were referring to something else, yeah?
Post a link or something.
And no, they really aren't, it's kinda like assuming a firearm is more accurate than a hand grenade. Potentially, sure, but it kinda depends on who's shooting.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;13271767]Your article, not mine.
You weren't referring to this:
[url]http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/20091177657498163.html[/url]
You were referring to something else, yeah?
Post a link or something.[/QUOTE]
the reporters must have fucked up because there is no way a tank can fire WP shells at a high arc like that
still, like I said, it's a stupid semantic argument because tanks are more accurate than artillery and thus there is literally no excuse. With artillery, yeah, maybe (unlikely though because even though I really fucking hate the IDF I don't think they're randomly shelling Gaza) it was a random hit, but in a TANK you have a direct line of sight to what you're shooting. The tank crew would have been aware that they were shelling a school. If anything it's even more damning.
Fuck, it shouldn't even matter, what matters is that Israel has hit UN assets for a third time after repeated condemnations and even after sending the coordinates to the IDF. Israel needs to be punished.
[QUOTE=nono345;13271764]pretty good K/D
i'm impressed, but I think america would do better[/QUOTE]
they already did do it better its called indian removal
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;13271767]Your article, not mine.
You weren't referring to this:
[url]http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/20091177657498163.html[/url]
You were referring to something else, yeah?
Post a link or something.
And no, they really aren't, it's kinda like assuming a firearm is more accurate than a hand grenade. Potentially, sure, but it kinda depends on who's shooting.[/QUOTE]
hm no it's like arguing that a 20mm cannon shooting straight at something is more accurate than a mortar firing at something it can't see (actually it's like comparing cannons to artillery, actually that is literally what i am comparing)
maybe the IDF tanks have really shitty barrels and it's like firing a big musket lol
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;13271791]the reporters must have fucked up because there is no way a tank can fire WP shells at a high arc like that[/QUOTE]
Right, because if it doesn't sound like what you want to believe happened it must not have.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;13271791]still, like I said, it's a stupid semantic argument because tanks are more accurate than artillery and thus there is literally no excuse. With artillery, yeah, maybe (unlikely though because even though I really fucking hate the IDF I don't think they're randomly shelling Gaza) it was a random hit, but in a TANK you have a direct line of sight to what you're shooting. The tank crew would have been aware that they were shelling a school. If anything it's even more damning.[/QUOTE]
You're also in harm's way, and there's always the potential that your aim is poor. Tanks don't fire magically straight shells, everything has a degree of inaccuracy, and being under pressure in an actual combat scenario you're not exactly calm and collected and making every shot count. There are some guys that do, I'm sure, but just as not everyone with a rifle is a crack shot, not everyone crewing a tank can aim a shell properly.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;13271791]Fuck, it shouldn't even matter, what matters is that Israel has hit UN assets for a third time after repeated condemnations and even after sending the coordinates to the IDF. Israel needs to be punished.[/QUOTE]
So does Hamas, for shit they've done to their own men. Quit being an apologist for the current loser.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;13271598]Stop funding Israel- but the Jewish lobby is way too big in the US for that to be real viable. Any time a politician in America criticizes Israel (hurr our only middle eastern ally on the war on terrists) they're condemned. Plus a majority of Americans feel like Israel is always justified 100% because they're fighting brown people.
I'd settle for a US-led call for justice and a massive humanitarian campaign for Gaza, but we all know Obama's just going to say "well, what Israel did was wrong, but Hamas is much worse!". Which is bullshit because Hamas does more to aid Palestine than Israel does (that's a big reason why they were elected). Human shields? They're kind of in a ghetto, where the fuck are they supposed to launch their rockets from? There's nowhere BUT the city. Dead Israelis? The fucking rockets are glorified firecrackers, when they impact concrete all they do is leave a scorchmark. Plus with the blockade, rockets are the only way to fight back against Israeli oppression. Hamas has every right to strike back against Israel's human rights abuses. Does Israel have the "right" to strike back against Hamas rocket attacks? Possibly, but why should they? The rockets hardly even hurt very many Israelis, they aren't a huge threat to Israel's existence. But at this point, there's only one thing Israel can do: lower the embargo, give Palestine the land that Israeli settlers took, and recognize Hamas as a legitimate political entity. Basically, if they stop treating the Palestinians as subhuman, things will improve.[/QUOTE]
What? So we stick it to our allies in order to protect people who hate us? How does that benefit us?
A country is like a company, it only acts when it can gain something from the matter. Even when there is no apparent gain, chances are the loss is minimal and outweighed by the PR benefits.
Any act against Israel potentially cuts off our only legitimate ally in the region. We work extremely closely with the IDF post 9/11 as they have excellent insight in how to combat terrorism on a large scale.
So flat out cutting them off is bad. And obviously helping them is a PR nightmare. So we largely just wag our finger at them publicly. The only move which covers our ass from both ends. The only move which minimizes damage.
But okay, lets assume we were allowed to roll aid into the gaza strip. The IDF allows it for fear of losing funding. What happens when Hamas fighters open fire on us for being Americans? You know it would happen. We support the IDF and Hamas is filled with fucking idiots who don't know when to stop. They blow up a truck of supplies killing a few civilian aid workers and maybe a guard or two. Do you have any idea the kind of outrage which would spawn from that? The resulting military action would make Israel look like they were armed with [I]crayons. [/I]
EDIT: don't get me wrong, I'd like for the conflict to end and then us get right in there with Israel and funnel in some aid into the region. But frankly I KNOW they are going to try and kill our workers. And as much as we need the PR boost and they need the aid, the resulting conflict will not be good for either.
[QUOTE=GunFox;13271858]What? So we stick it to our allies in order to protect people who hate us? How does that benefit us?
A country is like a company, it only acts when it can gain something from the matter. Even when there is no apparent gain, chances are the loss is minimal and outweighed by the PR benefits.
Any act against Israel potentially cuts off our only legitimate ally in the region. We work extremely closely with the IDF post 9/11 as they have excellent insight in how to combat terrorism on a large scale.
So flat out cutting them off is bad. And obviously helping them is a PR nightmare. So we largely just wag our finger at them publicly. The only move which covers our ass from both ends. The only move which minimizes damage.
But okay, lets assume we were allowed to roll aid into the gaza strip. The IDF allows it for fear of losing funding. What happens when Hamas fighters open fire on us for being Americans? You know it would happen. We support the IDF and Hamas is filled with fucking idiots who don't know when to stop. They blow up a truck of supplies killing a few civilian aid workers and maybe a guard or two. Do you have any idea the kind of outrage which would spawn from that? The resulting military action would make Israel look like they were armed with [I]crayons. [/I][/QUOTE]
there are already plenty of human rights organizations helping out in gaza though, it's not like there are people in burkas rolling around in technicals firing AKs into the air
cutting off aid to Israel would remove their free-pass of aggression; it would force them to actually sit down and make concessions towards peace since they know that they might not be able to keep being hostile douchebags to everyone
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;13271855]Right, because if it doesn't sound like what you want to believe happened it must not have.
You're also in harm's way, and there's always the potential that your aim is poor. Tanks don't fire magically straight shells, everything has a degree of inaccuracy, and being under pressure in an actual combat scenario you're not exactly calm and collected and making every shot count. There are some guys that do, I'm sure, but just as not everyone with a rifle is a crack shot, not everyone crewing a tank can aim a shell properly.
So does Hamas, for shit they've done to their own men. Quit being an apologist for the current loser.[/QUOTE]
maybe you should take a look at how big that building was in the picture compared to where the round impacted and tell me that the tank "missed"
or maybe you should tell me how a tank can fire a airbusting WP artillery shell at a high arc because I am obviously incorrect when I say it was just a stupid military hardware mistake by the reporter. Shit like that is fucking unimportant, why the hell does it matter what shot the damn thing
Tanks aren't laser accurate, but they strive to be. Maybe Israel's engineers just design really crappy tanks with really innaccurate guns, god help them if they actually fight any enemy tanks.
Apologetic to the loser? How many civilians have died in Israel again?
I think America condemning Israel's actions in a simple statement would go a long way, and if Israel doesn't fucking shape up, they're on their own.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;13271855]not everyone crewing a tank can aim a shell properly.[/QUOTE]
well, those aren't the kind of people you'd want aiming a tank in the first place
[QUOTE=slogsdon;13271993]I think America condemning Israel's actions in a simple statement would go a long way, and if Israel doesn't fucking shape up, they're on their own.[/QUOTE]
The UN has condemned Israel dozens of times and nothing changed. But now, if the UN actually goes through and calls for investigations, we might see some progress.
[QUOTE=Uber|nooB;13272006]well, those aren't the kind of people you'd want aiming a tank in the first place[/QUOTE]
erm well tanks aren;t laser accurate its okay, it's kinda like in battlefield 1942
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;13272008]The UN has condemned Israel dozens of times and nothing changed. But now, if the UN actually goes through and calls for investigations, we might see some progress.[/QUOTE]
The UN does jack shit, any country with brains knows this. However, the US is Israel's biggest supporter(at least one of them), so I'm pretty sure it would have a large impact, especially with the threat of withdrawal of support.
[QUOTE=slogsdon;13272020]The UN does jack shit, any country with brains knows this. However, the US is Israel's biggest supporter(at least one of them), so I'm pretty sure it would have a large impact, especially with the threat of withdrawal of support.[/QUOTE]
Well when you talk about cutting off support, sure. But dragging the IDF to the Hague would be excellent.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;13271967]maybe you should take a look at how big that building was in the picture compared to where the round impacted and tell me that the tank "missed"[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;13271967]or maybe you should tell me how a tank can fire a airbusting WP artillery shell at a high arc because I am obviously incorrect when I say it was just a stupid military hardware mistake by the reporter. Shit like that is fucking unimportant, why the hell does it matter what shot the damn thing[/QUOTE]
Maybe they were just using the wrong photo for that article. It goes both ways.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;13271967]tanks aren't laser accurate, but they strive to be. Maybe Israel's engineers just design really crappy tanks with really innaccurate guns, god help them if they actually fight any enemy tanks[/QUOTE]
Harr. And we both know Israel is proud of her excellent armor. Yet you seem to be forgetting that no matter how accurate a gun is, it's only going to ever make shots as accurate as the guy (or, in this case, crew) aiming it. A bunch of macho fucks in hostile territory or a bunch of scared fucks in hostile territory are probably going to either aim poorly in anger or act skittish due to not having been in combat like this before.
Maybe the guys on the ground don't actually agree with what's going on. Maybe they're scared. Maybe they want to go home and stop seeing people get lit on fire on their screens. But do you care about that? No. You want to condemn the lot of them, RAH RAH MAKE ISRAEL PAY FOR HER CRIMES, and it doesn't make you any better than those you're condemning.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;13271967]apologetic to the loser? how many civilians have died in Israel again?[/QUOTE]
Doesn't matter. If Hamas was killing more Israelis than the IDF was killing Palestinians you'd be siding with Israel. I may be completely devoid of morals, but to see you pretend you have them and then watch you speak about getting back at Israel like a barbarian is sickening.
But no, attack me for being an Israel apologist when I would rather STOP BOTH SIDES. Fuck equality, we need revenge!
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;13271923]there are already plenty of human rights organizations helping out in gaza though, it's not like there are people in burkas rolling around in technicals firing AKs into the air
cutting off aid to Israel would remove their free-pass of aggression; it would force them to actually sit down and make concessions towards peace since they know that they might not be able to keep being hostile douchebags to everyone[/QUOTE]
Except we also lose an ally. An ally who is a significant military help.
Not only are we allowed virtually unlimited use of their air bases, but we frequently engage in joint research with them. They are a powerhouse of R&D and are currently doing wonderful work with lasers as well as drone technology.
In addition to this, they are an excellent customer. They need a lot of things, and we have a free trade agreement with them. And they produce a lot of military hardware worldwide.
Again. We gain nothing by cutting off their aid. The people they hate, are generally pretty much the same people we hate. Hamas was a democratically elected organization which is recognized as a terrorist organization. We want NOTHING to do with Hamas or the people who elected them.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Ryan;13272008]The UN has condemned Israel dozens of times and nothing changed. But now, if the UN actually goes through and calls for investigations, we might see some progress.[/QUOTE]
I believe they have already begun to investigate and call for other investigations.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;13272064]Maybe they were just using the wrong photo for that article. It goes both ways.
Harr. And we both know Israel is proud of her excellent armor. Yet you seem to be forgetting that no matter how accurate a gun is, it's only going to ever make shots as accurate as the guy (or, in this case, crew) aiming it. A bunch of macho fucks in hostile territory or a bunch of scared fucks in hostile territory are probably going to either aim poorly in anger or act skittish due to not having been in combat like this before.
Maybe the guys on the ground don't actually agree with what's going on. Maybe they're scared. Maybe they want to go home and stop seeing people get lit on fire on their screens. But do you care about that? No. You want to condemn the lot of them, RAH RAH MAKE ISRAEL PAY FOR HER CRIMES, and it doesn't make you any better than those you're condemning.
Doesn't matter. If Hamas was killing more Israelis than the IDF was killing Palestinians you'd be siding with Israel. I may be completely devoid of morals, but to see you pretend you have them and then watch you speak about getting back at Israel like a barbarian is sickening.
But no, attack me for being an Israel apologist when I would rather STOP BOTH SIDES.[/QUOTE]
How the fuck does that refute anything? [b]Of course[/b] he'd be against Hamas(everyone already is), if they were using force like Israel. If he didn't that would make him a hypocrite. So I don't see how that's an argument at all.
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