Pennsylvanians ask feds to help disarm intimidating small-town militia - Polidicks

I fucking hate living in Pennsylvania sometimes.

[QUOTE=Kuro.;41740097]The Second Amendment is basically null and void at this point in history. The right to bear arms and the right to use those arms to overthrow a rogue government is worthless when the government is infinitely better armed than the populace. The government has nothing to fear from citizens armed with hunting rifles and shotguns when they have guided missiles, drones, and assault rifles and the willingness to use them on people they treat as 'potential enemy combatants' (aka basically every American citizen, according to the scope of the NSA's domestic surveillance program).[/QUOTE] I've seen this argument before and it always operates on one major assumption: that the majority (or any) of the US army will turn on the citizens of its country just because their leaders say so.

[QUOTE=Aman;41740702]That's not entirely the point. The point is it doesn't matter how "advanced" the military is. If the people rise up, the people rise up. No government can fully kill a revolution if it is truly determined and large enough. The right to bear arms supports and augments this.[/QUOTE] What? Governments crush (attempted) revolutions all the time though. Usually what determines success of the revolution is hardly the resilience of the downtrodden. Russia had no revolution until the government literally collapsed in WW1. The French government usually falls apart after either an invasion or economic collapse. The revolutions of 1848 were during a time of unusually sharp business cycles where the economy was violently booming one minute and then imploding the next. Revolutions happen when the government is too weak to resist them, and even then you don't need guns for that. Senior politicians are quite happy to literally kill each other during such a crisis. [editline]7th August 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=JeanLuc761;41740793]I've seen this argument before and it always operates on one major assumption: that the majority (or any) of the US army will turn on the citizens of its country just because their leaders say so.[/QUOTE] Well German soldiers were very happy to kill their own countrymen, rape their wives, and steal their stuff before setting fire to the house during the 30 years war. Not even religious boundaries came into it. Catholics killed Catholics very happily and with much merriment. Why should a US soldier desert and lose his goodies? If he stays with the army, he can rise to a very respectable position, ensure a lot of wealth, and become powerful.

I still think this sort of millitia is better than basement dwellers who don fedoras and guy fawkes masks to march around a political thing. I mean, the millitia shouldn't start shit, but I'd rather have a millitia than a bunch of people who only oppose the government's political stuff because it's the "cool" thing to do Go ahead and rate this dumb

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;41740827]What? Governments crush (attempted) revolutions all the time though. Usually what determines success of the revolution is hardly the resilience of the downtrodden. Russia had no revolution until the government literally collapsed in WW1. The French government usually falls apart after either an invasion or economic collapse. The revolutions of 1848 were during a time of unusually sharp business cycles where the economy was violently booming one minute and then imploding the next. Revolutions happen when the government is too weak to resist them, and even then you don't need guns for that. Senior politicians are quite happy to literally kill each other during such a crisis. [editline]7th August 2013[/editline] Well German soldiers were very happy to kill their own countrymen, rape their wives, and steal their stuff before setting fire to the house during the 30 years war. Not even religious boundaries came into it. Catholics killed Catholics very happily and with much merriment. Why should a US soldier desert and lose his goodies? If he stays with the army, he can rise to a very respectable position, ensure a lot of wealth, and become powerful.[/QUOTE] because an american soldier only ever swears allegiance to the constitution, and he's required to disobey any unconstitutional orders.

[QUOTE=butre;41741013]because an american soldier only ever swears allegiance to the constitution, and he's required to disobey any unconstitutional orders.[/QUOTE] Roman soldiers declared allegiance to the Republic. Crusaders declared allegiance to the pope. Nobles declares allegiance to their King. This didn't stop generals from dismantling the Roman Republic, Crusaders sacking Christian cities, and nobles frequently tossing their king out of power. If America regressed to the stage where the government was to be overthrown by armed revolution, the army would probably end up being commanded by an intelligent and charismatic general with good connections. Of course, it would end up like any other tinpot dictatorship in human history. America isn't anything special.

[QUOTE=trotskygrad;41740151][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQakPtOQCJo[/media][/QUOTE] I was honestly expecting towards the end for him to pull out a RPG or some ridiculous shit like that.

[QUOTE=Jetpack Bear;41739947]I live in Schuylkill county, Pottsville represent[/QUOTE] That's only like 20 minutes away from me. I live in Mt. Carmel

[QUOTE=SnakeHead;41739896]That's a very slippery slope, you can't just throw people in jail or whatever just because they may have the power to intimidate people.[/QUOTE] I dunno, smells like Domestic Terrorism to me. They are forcing the people to live in fear, which fits the definition of terrorism. This is not a militia, that's just a convenient name to give them some justification.

right wingers can be cute

[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;41740793]I've seen this argument before and it always operates on one major assumption: that the majority (or any) of the US army will turn on the citizens of its country just because their leaders say so.[/QUOTE] I've seen this argument before and it always operates on one major assumption: that the majority of the US army will believe those are still US citizens, and not a bunch of terrorists invading their country, just because they claim they are.

[QUOTE=mobrockers;41744484]I've seen this argument before and it always operates on one major assumption: that the majority of the US army will believe those are still US citizens, and not a bunch of terrorists invading their country, just because they claim they are.[/QUOTE] People also forget that dictatorships only exist through popular support. Just look at Assad and Syria. The whole notion of 2nd amendment armed population rising up against some abstract evil is a complete fantasy. There will be 2nd amendment armed civilians working for the government to suppress the ~uprising~ as well.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;41741114]Roman soldiers declared allegiance to the Republic. Crusaders declared allegiance to the pope. Nobles declares allegiance to their King. This didn't stop generals from dismantling the Roman Republic, Crusaders sacking Christian cities, and nobles frequently tossing their king out of power. If America regressed to the stage where the government was to be overthrown by armed revolution, the army would probably end up being commanded by an intelligent and charismatic general with good connections. Of course, it would end up like any other tinpot dictatorship in human history. America isn't anything special.[/QUOTE] If american people feel the need to overthrow their government, I think they underestimate how far, far, FAR better off they are from other countries.

[QUOTE=slamex;41744943]If american people feel the need to overthrow their government, I think they underestimate how far, far, FAR better off they are from other countries.[/QUOTE] I can think of a few reasons for that, but could you elaborate?

[QUOTE=SnakeHead;41739796]I may not agree with some of his views but this is exactly what the second amendment is for. They have every right to bear arms and form a militia as long as they are not breaking any laws.[/QUOTE] but dont you think the chances of breaking laws increase tenfold when you bring a bunch of people with guns together? Just seems like you're holding a lit match to a stack of papers hoping it won't burn.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;41739763]Oh geez, how did I not hear of this? My county even borders Schuylkill.[/QUOTE] Don't worry we from Perry can come!!! or just send everyone from Allison Hill out

[QUOTE=MuTAnT;41739845]I don't think it's legal to use your militia to intimidate and blockade people from public meetings, so I imagine there could be a case against him. Don't know how it would play out though.[/QUOTE] That never happened, they kept people who didn't actually live in the fucking town from going into the meeting first. The worst thing they did was say 'Form a line'.

[QUOTE=anis;41745217]I can think of a few reasons for that, but could you elaborate?[/QUOTE] Do you need me to elaborate why American people are better off then a lot of other countries? Or just the countries that have staged armed revolutions? Like Syria or Libya?

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;41739842]Attacking these guys would be unconstitutional[/QUOTE] A group of people amassing weapons and making threats could easily be considered a terrorist cell If the feds have reason to believe they're planning an attack they'd be within their rights to start arresting people

Whenever my state is mentioned, it's always for shitty reasons :(

This represents a very small minority of gun owners in the united states.

[QUOTE=NuclearAnnhilation;41739894]militias are in the constitution, yeah good luck[/QUOTE] didn't you know the constitution is toilet paper for politicians?

[QUOTE=Psychokitten;41739779]So what, are we supposed to just toss out all our guns?[/QUOTE] Yes, like how you should quit wanking 10 times a day if you want to feel your dick again. Cut down to at least 5 times for starters

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;41740264]The demographic also covers survivalists, conspiracy theorists, mall ninjas, and whackers nicely as well. Legitimate militias are already organized, that usually being the National Guard.[/QUOTE] The National Guard isn't a militia. They're a humanitarian branch of the military, they get deployed to do non-combative work occasionally, but 99% of the time they stay state-side and do humanitarian work.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;41741114]Roman soldiers declared allegiance to the Republic. Crusaders declared allegiance to the pope. Nobles declares allegiance to their King. This didn't stop generals from dismantling the Roman Republic, Crusaders sacking Christian cities, and nobles frequently tossing their king out of power. If America regressed to the stage where the government was to be overthrown by armed revolution, the army would probably end up being commanded by an intelligent and charismatic general with good connections. Of course, it would end up like any other tinpot dictatorship in human history. America isn't anything special.[/QUOTE] Are you really comparing the current army to World War germans and armies hundreds of years old? Are you joking? News flash buddy, there are news flashes now, it's the information age and if you seriously think that the majority of the rank-in-file U.S. army would turn their guns on citizens you're a nutcase. I don't think many other foreign armies would either. Most of my friends in the army know that the Government is fucked up. My dad works as a security network contractor at Fort Knox and he sits there, twiddles his thumbs all day and gets paid fat stacks for it and he says there's dozens of people doing the same in his section alone because there's simply nothing to do because of how disorganized the government is. Not every U.S. soldier is a hyper-patriot willing to defend a pebble on U.S. soil with his life. Your average army soldier is quite a down to earth humble guy or girl and not some Uncle Sam brainwashed drone that apparently people think they are.

That's ... he... but... So he's a sheriff. And obviously a gun enthusiast. I know several gun owners... enthusiastic ones with the "take it from my cold dead hands" bumper sticker and everything. None of them behave like this guy (not that I have seen.) It worries me that you can see him thinking in circles in those videos. Like he has an idea, then pauses to give the hamster a rest. Whatever comes of this, that guy is a nut.

[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;41749777]Are you really comparing the current army to World War germans and armies hundreds of years old? Are you joking? News flash buddy, there are news flashes now, it's the information age and if you seriously think that the majority of the rank-in-file U.S. army would turn their guns on citizens you're a nutcase. I don't think many other foreign armies would either. Most of my friends in the army know that the Government is fucked up. My dad works as a security network contractor at Fort Knox and he sits there, twiddles his thumbs all day and gets paid fat stacks for it and he says there's dozens of people doing the same in his section alone because there's simply nothing to do because of how disorganized the government is. Not every U.S. soldier is a hyper-patriot willing to defend a pebble on U.S. soil with his life. Your average army soldier is quite a down to earth humble guy or girl and not some Uncle Sam brainwashed drone that apparently people think they are.[/QUOTE] You're talking to Sobotnik, read his title and then you'll realize why you're trying to knock sense into a coconut. [editline]7th August 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=tirpider;41749796]That's ... he... but... So he's a sheriff. And obviously a gun enthusiast. I know several gun owners... enthusiastic ones with the "take it from my cold dead hands" bumper sticker and everything. None of them behave like this guy (not that I have seen.) It worries me that you can see him thinking in circles in those videos. Like he has an idea, then pauses to give the hamster a rest. Whatever comes of this, that guy is a nut.[/QUOTE] If you give people freedom, there's going to be idiots that use that freedom, welcome to life. I'd rather have freedom and idiots than a police state, because a police state will just end up with the idiots in power and me with no freedom to do anything about it. You can't disarm the idiots if they're running the show.

[QUOTE=draugur;41749804]You're talking to Sobotnik, read his title and then you'll realize why you're trying to knock sense into a coconut.[/QUOTE] Yeah I happened to notice his name halfway through my post but I thought I might as well finish it anyway. But the fact that he got as many agrees as he did is frightening.

[QUOTE=draugur;41749433]The National Guard isn't a militia.[/QUOTE] Legally, yes they are a militia. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_the_United_States[/url] [quote]National Guard members are a subset of the Militia as defined by 10 U.S.C. § 311.[/quote] [url]http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/311[/url] [quote]The classes of the militia are— (1) the organized militia, which consists of the [b]National Guard[/b] and the Naval Militia; and (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.[/quote] [editline]7th August 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;41749777]Are you really comparing the current army to World War germans and armies hundreds of years old? Are you joking?[/quote] The business of warfare changes little. There is of course a great deal of technological advance, but militaries still serve the same role as they used to, that is, being permitted to use lethal force on behalf of the interests of the state they serve. War is an extension of politics and should be treated as such. [quote]News flash buddy, there are news flashes now, it's the information age and if you seriously think that the majority of the rank-in-file U.S. army would turn their guns on citizens you're a nutcase.[/quote] Soldiers in any army are very capable of turning guns on citizens. In fact, they have been used in the past to quell rebellions in America. Right from the start: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion[/url] [quote]Militia was called up from New Jersey, Maryland, Virginia, and eastern Pennsylvania. The federalized militia force of 12,950 men was a large army by American standards of the time: the army that had been with Washington during the Revolutionary War had often been smaller.[85] Because relatively few men volunteered for militia service, a draft was used to fill out the ranks.[86] Draft evasion was widespread, and conscription efforts resulted in protests and riots, even in eastern areas. Three counties in eastern Virginia were the scenes of armed draft resistance.[87] In Maryland, Governor Thomas Sim Lee sent 800 men to quash an antidraft riot in Hagerstown; about 150 people were arrested.[/quote] To the modern day: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots[/url] [quote]The rioting ended after soldiers from the California Army National Guard, along with U.S. Marines from Camp Pendleton were called in to stop the rioting after the local police could not handle the situation. [/quote] [quote]I don't think many other foreign armies would either. Most of my friends in the army know that the Government is fucked up.[/quote] Yet they still serve it? Why do they remain in employ of a government they know to be morally awful? Shouldn't they rebel? Or perhaps, there's another reason. Why serve if you know its wrong? Where do you draw the line? [quote]My dad works as a security network contractor at Fort Knox and he sits there, twiddles his thumbs all day and gets paid fat stacks for it and he says there's dozens of people doing the same in his section alone because there's simply nothing to do because of how disorganized the government is.[/quote] So what makes you afraid that an incompetent government will somehow suddenly gain the competence to oppress everybody and control the army? [quote]Not every U.S. soldier is a hyper-patriot willing to defend a pebble on U.S. soil with his life. Your average army soldier is quite a down to earth humble guy or girl and not some Uncle Sam brainwashed drone that apparently people think they are.[/QUOTE] So what makes you so sure that normal US citizens can win a war? Surely those are the same sorts of people? They don't want to die. They get on with life. [editline]7th August 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;41749833]But the fact that he got as many agrees as he did is frightening.[/QUOTE] Perhaps it's an indication that the world operates differently to how you would like to imagine it to?

[QUOTE=draugur;41749804]You're talking to Sobotnik, read his title and then you'll realize why you're trying to knock sense into a coconut.[/QUOTE] Yeah dude, that title bought by some angry forum poster sure is one epic burn! Totally invalidates his very legitimate opinions! [QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;41749833]But the fact that he got as many agrees as he did is frightening.[/QUOTE] Surprise surprise not everyone shares your extremely idealistic view of modern western society.