Congressman wants to curb the Military Surplus program with police agencies. - Polidicks

[QUOTE]That analogy is fucking terrible and not even close to what its like. When you fire a gun, you can't control where its going to land after firing. No one can control that, the best you can do is aim it and pull the trigger to the best of your ability. [/QUOTE] There is a 10^100000 gap of difference between the cop who shot only once and his bullet ricocheted 45º in some obtuse object and hit a girl and the cop who fired a volley of rounds because he felt like firing a shit load of bullets and hit someone. For a reason the "happy trigger" phenomenon exists and is punished world wide. Cops are responsible for where and how they fire.

[QUOTE=trotskygrad;45714617]I've been to a lot of countries and this is the case everywhere. Norway, Sweden, Poland, Germany (well ze Germans are actually a lot like the US), Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, Czech Republic, Hungary, Finland, all the same shit. I don't feel like trudging through my memory to bring up more examples. Fuck in Hungary all the museum guards have pistols on them... When's the last time you saw that. Poland private shopping mall security wears military grade tactical vests... (No guns obv, but muh militarization).[/QUOTE] Well I both know there isn't and do not see militarization of police forces in France, and I hear constant talk of how dangerously under-equipped English police are. Really I think, given France's comparable economic standing and culture around protests, it's noteworthy that their police forces [I]haven't[/I] become militarized. [editline]17th August 2014[/editline] Thought the thread was petering down, missed an entire page, dgaf.

[QUOTE=Mbbird;45717821]Well I both know there isn't and do not see militarization of police forces in France, and I hear constant talk of how dangerously under-equipped English police are. Really I think, given France's comparable economic standing and culture around protests, it's noteworthy that their police forces [I]haven't[/I] become militarized. [editline]17th August 2014[/editline] Thought the thread was petering down, missed an entire page, dgaf.[/QUOTE] They aren't militarized because they have the military already on the streets patrolling...

[QUOTE=trotskygrad;45717932]They aren't militarized because they have the military already on the streets patrolling...[/QUOTE] ...as a superficial gesture. You said it yourself. [editline]17th August 2014[/editline] And only in airports and around the Eiffel tower lol.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45714937]Then they can use an AR-15, they don't need the burst fire capabilities of an M4.[/QUOTE] Take the auto sear out and those M4s will become semi-auto.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45718667]And I'm going to call you out on how fucking dumb it sounds when you say "when you fire a gun you can't control where it's going to land after firing". Because that's all the more reason to make sure that if you're pulling the god damned trigger then you're going to fucking hit the asshole you're aiming at. I'm using a shit-ton of sources because the people in SH insist on seeing sources and wouldn't bother looking up a damn thing for themselves. There's no god damned excuse for the police, of all people, to not have adequate range time. If you read the article I posted earlier, the officers were asked why they don't practice in their off time, most responeded with "I would, if the department gave me the ammo". Which is fucking dumb, you can afford to go out and buy a 50 rnd box of ammo for 20$, and go shoot, I don't like paying for a haircut every two weeks but the military laughs at me and says "lol we gave you a paycheck", why can't we do the same to the police? God forbid you'd have to spend some of your own money to make sure that you don't fucking kill an innocent person. I have a proposition, log more time on the range or you don't get to carry a side arm. You want to do your job well, then fucking act like it and go become proficient with your weapon; you'll do yourself a favor and you'll do the rest of the community a favor when you don't fucking fire 10 rounds and miss 9 times.[/QUOTE] When you have to fire your weapon, its not like on the range. You have all sorts of shit going on, tunnel vision, adrenaline, etc. Accuracy is like 10% or something when all that gets factored in. Its fucking hard to hit things that are farther than 3 yards when all this is going on... at 25yards range I can score 225 in a national match round, but on the streets I'd be lucky to hit someone at that range

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45719013]Which is why you do drills, you don't just go to practice accuracy, you go to practice every aspect of shooting. Worried that you're not going to shoot well after you've run for 3 blocks? Then practice that; go run for 3 blocks and shoot. Worried about stoppages? Load a few snap caps into the weapon at random, practice remedial actions. The range doesn't just have to be all about accuracy. Accuracy is something that you gain from constant practice. When you're proficient you can't use "but the heat of the moment" excuses that SH LOVES to use, and instead would actually be accountable for your actions.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf[/url] Page 7 shows hit % for NYPD. You cant just shoot yourself up with epinephrine and then go shoot. It doesnt work like that. You cant account for every variable that happens during a good shoot.. light, distance, clothing, being shot at, bystanders, terrain, obstacles, temperature, etc. Sure with enough range time I can hit a pill of aspirin, but that doesnt mean I can hit a person with the same accuracy on the street

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45719278]No, you're right, you're not going to be able to account for every variable. But you can account for the most likely to happen. You can go and run which would simulate an adrenaline rush, run until you're tired, then shoot, etc etc. If it's a police range that's even better, as you can add different things to the line to make changes, like changing the light, adding in "bystanders", you can even change the temp if you really wanted to (assuming it's an indoor range) [/QUOTE] You can't simulate someone trying to shoot you before you shoot them, which is I imagine is why the hit percentage is so low. You basically have about one or two seconds to react to a threat.

[QUOTE=Mbbird;45712125]M4s [B]are [/B]fully automatic. AR-15s are usually not. Does it matter in the hands of someone who has more than an hour of range-time? No. Putting "fully automatic" in front of "M4" is like saying "electric laptop". It's a scare tactic that ALL US news outlets use [B]incessantly[/B]. Military-grade is another retarded buzzword that doesn't mean anything. Details aren't always unimportant.[/QUOTE] No it isn't, It's semi-auto and 3-round burst, that isnt full automatic, but please do correct me. There's 2 variants, m4, and a m4a1, which is automatic, should have been clear. I know media uses it as a scare tactic.

[QUOTE=SpaceGhost;45721325]No it isn't, It's semi-auto and 3-round burst, that isnt full automatic, but please do correct me. There's 2 variants, m4, and a m4a1, which is automatic, should have been clear. I know media uses it as a scare tactic.[/QUOTE] ... thank you for reminding me, but my entire point is that there is little difference between fully-automatic and semi-automatic weapons in the hands of someone that knows what they're doing.

[QUOTE=Mbbird;45721373]... thank you for reminding me, but my entire point is that there is little difference between fully-automatic and semi-automatic weapons in the hands of someone that knows what they're doing.[/QUOTE] Speaking of which, isn't semi-auto used 95+% of the time even by soldiers with select-fire anyhow?

[QUOTE=trotskygrad;45706545]"Military grade" The rifles and vehicles they're getting aren't much different than what they would use otherwise. Call me when they start getting greater offensive capabilities. That's what would be worrying. As for seeing police officers with military weapons? More of a thing in other countries compared to the US I live in chicago. At the airport there are a couple cops with pistols and revolvers. UK Heathrow? SFOs with MP5 SMG. Paris CDG? FAMAS everywhere Vilnius? Police with MP5s escorting the plane on the Tarmac. Shanghai? Shotguns and full tactical gear. Kiev (before the revolution)? AK Carbines everywhere.[/QUOTE] Airports are an entirely different story, especially the ones you listed, those are considered HVT for terrorists.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45715001]The fbi and swat are different cases, considering swat mostly uses compact weaponry like the mp5, usually loaded with hollow points, which are usually a 115 grn projectile that travels around 1240 ft/second , the collateral damage is fairly small. On the other hand, an m4/AR-15 fires a 5.56 projectile, which while only weighing in at 63grn, is also a fmj, and usually would contain a steel or tungsten armor penetrator, and also travels at around 3070 ft/s; thus "oops we missed" with an mp5 on full auto is bad, but not as bad as "oop, i missed" with a round that can punch through several walls while still maintaining lethal velocities, and maintaining enough mass to inflict fairly heavy damage.[/QUOTE] from what i gather most agencies and departments aren't using M855 because of the reasons you stated a lot use frangible and lighter weight, lower powered cartridges, which eliminates the issues caused by M855 which is jacketed and has a steel tip penetrator [editline]18th August 2014[/editline] idk how relevant but on the topic of shooting people accurately without spraying, as much as i hate using this argument, but, put yourself in any law enforcement scenario that calls for you shooting something. it will be confusing, chaotic, and you're full of adrenaline. good luck hitting what you're aiming for

[QUOTE=Apache249;45721469]Speaking of which, isn't semi-auto used 95+% of the time even by soldiers with select-fire anyhow?[/QUOTE] Easily more than that in professional militaries.

the problem now is that cops and their departments are scrubbing at their jobs, and our militarized police force isn't being used for good [editline]18th August 2014[/editline] considering the fact that we started arming our law enforcement agencies because of the war on drugs and war on terror, both of which being started and perpetuated by the american government [editline]18th August 2014[/editline] the issue isn't even really the officers or their agencies or the equipment they're using (although it is a problem). the main issue is the reasons they're being equipped, and the bullshit orders they carry out and laws they enforce [editline]18th August 2014[/editline] its not a problem with police, its a problem with government in general [editline]18th August 2014[/editline] and until americans collectively decide to do something about the government its only going to get worse [editline]18th August 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=ilikecorn;45715001]The fbi and swat are different cases, considering swat mostly uses compact weaponry like the mp5, usually loaded with hollow points, which are usually a 115 grn projectile that travels around 1240 ft/second , the collateral damage is fairly small. On the other hand, an m4/AR-15 fires a 5.56 projectile, which while only weighing in at 63grn, is also a fmj, and usually would contain a steel or tungsten armor penetrator, and also travels at around 3070 ft/s; thus "oops we missed" with an mp5 on full auto is bad, but not as bad as "oop, i missed" with a round that can punch through several walls while still maintaining lethal velocities, and maintaining enough mass to inflict fairly heavy damage.[/QUOTE] and going on the whole tungsten armor penetrator those are pretty much illegal to own/impossible to get unless you're military and law enforcement, and i don't think any agency is going around equipping all their patrol rifles and SWAT rifles with expensive and unnecessary bullets. not many criminals or militias or whoever the fuck the governments trying to kill are going to be using level 4 body armor, which is pretty much impossible to get unless you're rich and/or in the police or military. [editline]18th August 2014[/editline] i dont even know what the argument in this thread is about but im gonna go ahead and say it anyway on the topic of cops spraying everywhere and being poorly trained / massive scrubs, there was an incident in miami i think, where cops responded to a call and saw someone with a gun or some shit. when the first responders engaged, other cops started coming in too and what ended up happening was that they were all pretty much ignoring their radios and ended up having a shoot out with each other. like 30 cops were on scene and over 200 shots were fired at nothing in particular and each other (some officers were wounded by friendly fire). i think that pretty accurately reflects the state of law enforcement in america over all [editline]18th August 2014[/editline] found it, turns out they unloaded 377 shots at each other and 2 unarmed men in a car who did not survive the hailstorm [url]http://miami.cbslocal.com/2014/05/06/police-shooting-frenzy-raises-concerns/[/url]

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45721690]Don't bother, apparently "the heat of the moment" excuses all behavior from the police in the US.[/QUOTE] "the heat of the moment" and "for national security"

[QUOTE=Leon;45721532]i dont even know what the argument in this thread is about but im gonna go ahead and say it anyway on the topic of cops spraying everywhere and being poorly trained / massive scrubs, there was an incident in miami i think, where cops responded to a call and saw someone with a gun or some shit. when the first responders engaged, other cops started coming in too and what ended up happening was that they were all pretty much ignoring their radios and ended up having a shoot out with each other. like 30 cops were on scene and over 200 shots were fired at nothing in particular and each other (some officers were wounded by friendly fire). i think that pretty accurately reflects the state of law enforcement in america over all[/QUOTE] because a single event in one of the shittiest states in the u.s. accounts for the all 50 states of the u.s. as well right

[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;45721735]because a single event in one of the shittiest states in the u.s. accounts for the all 50 states of the u.s. as well right[/QUOTE] actually... yeah it does [editline]18th August 2014[/editline] if you've been paying attention incidents like that happen all the time, all over the country [editline]18th August 2014[/editline] law enforcement agencies all over the us cooperate, exchange knowledge and train together. there is an on going national effort to standardize training and equipment for police agencies headed by federal agencies like the fbi. what one police department does is literally representative of every police department in this country because they're all involved in a national revamp of standard operating procedure. they all train the same. [editline]18th August 2014[/editline] police departments are expected to be on the same level for them to operate together. you've got all these joint task forces and shit because of that. look at the ongoing riots in ferguson and events like the boston marathon bombing and manhunt. you've got cops coming from all over the state and federal agents. theres no way they can be expected to stack up on the same wall and go through the door if they haven't all been trained the same, and at the same minimum level of proficiency it just seems that a lot of them forget most of it the moment adrenaline enters their bloodstream

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45721804]FUNFACT: the last person who was "accidentally shot" in the UK was in 03MAR12, but I guess being judicious in use of force is a cultural thing.[/QUOTE] its also near impossible to own guns and their patrol officers aren't armed

[QUOTE=Leon;45721815]its also near impossible to own guns and your patrol officers aren't armed[/QUOTE] Hmmm sounds like good goals for the US to follow.

[QUOTE=Antdawg;45721844]Hmmm sounds like good goals for the US to follow.[/QUOTE] we like our guns and our constitution isn't going to change any time soon and if it does change its time to use those guns

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45721804]FUNFACT: the last person who was "accidentally shot" in the UK was in 03MAR12, but I guess being judicious in use of force is a cultural thing. This was the guy they shot: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Grainger;[/url] they found no weapons what-so-ever on him.[/QUOTE] Seriously we get it, you hate the police and want to make their management hell rather than just fast laning things that would be approved anyways.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45721831]Yes, and the whole "hey make sure he's a legitimate threat before you unload 5 million rounds into him" thing that they've got going for them. That and I live in the US, my patrol officers are extremely well armed.[/QUOTE] yea i read what you said and assumed british but flagdog is bro [editline]18th August 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=ilikecorn;45721878]Nah i'd just like them to follow the same laws that the civilians follow, and for them to ditch the "us vs them" attitude they have; I'd also like the government to repeal the laws that are making it even harder for the police IE illicit drug laws; I think the police can do a much better job when they aren't constantly having to arrest people for paper crimes. And you know the whole "stop shooting innocent people" thing, but hell, I guess i'm a terrible person for suggesting that.[/QUOTE] pretty much this. the police wouldn't be a problem if we didn't have them ruining peoples lives for things that shouldn't even be illegal

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45721878]Nah i'd just like them to follow the same laws that the civilians follow, and for them to ditch the "us vs them" attitude they have; I'd also like the government to repeal the laws that are making it even harder for the police IE illicit drug laws; I think the police can do a much better job when they aren't constantly having to arrest people for paper crimes. And you know the whole "stop shooting innocent people" thing, but hell, I guess i'm a terrible person for suggesting that.[/QUOTE] Police would be approved by the ATF for anything they wish to purchase, giving them a wait period and the same paperwork wastes all parties involved time and money. Giving them a fast lane saves time and money. You know like the laws actually say. Police are not basic civilians they are civil servants under the judicial branch. I don't think anyone agrees with the methods being used, but the equipment is a wholly different discussion. What you are consistently suggesting would waste more government money and more agencies time rather than just using simpler methods of procurement that get them the same goods.

I'm totally on board with reigning in the "free military-grade weaponry for every cop" program, but it's a little too late to simply close the feeding trough. Every department that wants gear has already acquired plenty of it. Every cop has an AR-15 in the trunk and every hick town with more than 2,500 people has their own SWAT team complete with an armored vehicle to ride around in. The only way to change the situation is to actively take it away...and that is MUCH harder to do.

Jesus, if some of you want to come up with an argument, don't dig out of your ass please. Know your shit at least, stop thinking you're some armchair general who knows how the police works. And also, be glad that you're not like the Mexican police, where they could really use MRAPS. They are so underpowered they need the marines to fight the cartels

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45715001]The fbi and swat are different cases, considering swat mostly uses compact weaponry like the mp5, usually loaded with hollow points, which are usually a 115 grn projectile that travels around 1240 ft/second , the collateral damage is fairly small. On the other hand, an m4/AR-15 fires a 5.56 projectile, which while only weighing in at 63grn, is also a fmj, and usually would contain a steel or tungsten armor penetrator, and also travels at around 3070 ft/s; thus "oops we missed" with an mp5 on full auto is bad, but not as bad as "oop, i missed" with a round that can punch through several walls while still maintaining lethal velocities, and maintaining enough mass to inflict fairly heavy damage.[/QUOTE] SWAT teams stopped using the MP-5 almost entirely because 9mm goes through walls and kills people with extreme ease. The replacement? The AR-15 platform. Why? It is less likely to over penetrate with the right loads. Unlike handgun rounds or higher caliber rifle rounds, intermediate rifle calibers rely on tumbling through flesh in order to be lethal. By cutting straight through, you wouldn't have a very high chance of a lethal hit. Hell, you could even punch straight through a liver and fail to generate a hole large enough for them to even bleed out from. Since the bullet is weighted to tumble after hitting a surface, it is more likely for the round to lose energy or change direction and spin off harmlessly, than its fatter 9mm counterpart, who will lose little energy and maintain direction quite well. When considering the implications this has for overpenetration capabilities, the reasoning makes sense. Plus an MP5 basically has to be operated on burst or full, as the lethality simply isn't there otherwise in close quarters. The ballistics behind 5.56 rounds in general are interesting. Originally the AR15 platform only had about half the range of the current model because the barrel didn't have such a tight twist. The number of times the rifling in a barrel makes a full circle is important for a rifle. The greater the number of rotations, the faster the bullet spins and the greater the stability. But, as we said, the 5.56 round actually needs instability to function. The greater the instability, the shorter the range and the better the lethality. Early tests showed some fucked up stuff happening when they shot at animal carcasses. Stuff like shooting them in the abdomen and the round would lodge in the neck, having chewed a path upwards. The rounds produced wounds that were effectively untreatable and did so with alarming regularity.

And by the way, If you're gonna complain about 'military' stuff in the police, have this Polish police car: [img_thumb]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f7/POL_2004_Warsaw_europejski_szczyt_gospodarczy_01.jpg/800px-POL_2004_Warsaw_europejski_szczyt_gospodarczy_01.jpg[/img_thumb]

[QUOTE=Ignhelper;45738516]And by the way, If you're gonna complain about 'military' stuff in the police, have this Polish police car: [img_thumb]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f7/POL_2004_Warsaw_europejski_szczyt_gospodarczy_01.jpg/800px-POL_2004_Warsaw_europejski_szczyt_gospodarczy_01.jpg[/img_thumb][/QUOTE] There is a massive difference between a few for the state police and having local police forces have APCs. Yes, every police force has a military purpose vehicle BUT in American local police ( cities with pop. of ~9000 ) can have these by making a request to protect their annual pumpkin festivals from terrorists.

[QUOTE=ZeFruitNazi;45714959]say the FBI or some local SWAT team was executing a raid on a dangerous criminal or criminals, do you think suppression might be useful in that kind of situation, especially if they're being fired upon themselves?[/QUOTE] No, because they have huge fucking armored vehicles they can use to move around with, like LAPD did in North Hollywood in 1997 and Littleton PD did at Columbine in 1999.