California's Assembly Votes To Allow Communists To Hold State Jobs

[Crumpets]

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52229210]what are you basing your predictions off?

the future is inherently unpredictable, to assume that technology advances and AI becomes a reality in that way you describe is incredibly naive and dumb

if anything, the rate of technological and scientific innovation is declining[/QUOTE]

Actually humanlike AI isn't a question of if, it's when. Massive automation is looming, and with that a cascade of unforseeable changes. Maybe I was a bit gung ho with my prediction of 'statelessness' but the rest holds up. I said nothing else outlandish and stand by the rest of it. Big changes are coming due to those two technologies at the very least.

[OmniConsUme]

[QUOTE=Crumpet;52232761]Actually humanlike AI isn't a question of if, it's when. Massive automation is looming, and with that a cascade of unforseeable changes. Maybe I was a bit gung ho with my prediction of 'statelessness' but the rest holds up. I said nothing else outlandish and stand by the rest of it. Big changes are coming due to those two technologies at the very least.[/QUOTE]

Except I've actually talked to an AI Builder, They aren't building AI Like we think they are building, instead it is Limited AI in which they are only skilled at a couple certain things. They also only are accelerating at Machine Learning right now, and according to a Computer scientist Turing Machines (our computers) cannot handle True AI now.

[Sobotnik]

[QUOTE=Crumpet;52232761]Actually humanlike AI isn't a question of if, it's when. Massive automation is looming, and with that a cascade of unforseeable changes. Maybe I was a bit gung ho with my prediction of 'statelessness' but the rest holds up. I said nothing else outlandish and stand by the rest of it. Big changes are coming due to those two technologies at the very least.[/QUOTE]

but what are you basing this future prediction off of?

just because something happened in the past doesn't necessarily mean it will continue to happen in the future

between full space communism and a reversion to subsistence agrarianism i think the latter is much more likely

[Crumpets]

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52232814]but what are you basing this future prediction off of?

just because something happened in the past doesn't necessarily mean it will continue to happen in the future

between full space communism and a reversion to subsistence agrarianism i think the latter is much more likely[/QUOTE]

Having retracted my stance on a stateless society I'm not sure what you mean. The last things I said were big changes are coming (no specifics mentioned) and that this will be due to the huge changes these technologies will bring, which you seem to agree with.

[editline]15th May 2017[/editline]

[QUOTE=OmniConsUme;52232787]Except I've actually talked to an AI Builder, They aren't building AI Like we think they are building, instead it is Limited AI in which they are only skilled at a couple certain things. They also only are accelerating at Machine Learning right now, and according to a Computer scientist Turing Machines (our computers) cannot handle True AI now.[/QUOTE]

I have also talked to an 'AI builder' so anecdotes are useless here, especially when published research has been done and advances are continually being made towards what we would consider humanlike AI.

[Sobotnik]

[QUOTE=Crumpet;52232885]Having retracted my stance on a stateless society I'm not sure what you mean. The last things I said were big changes are coming (no specifics mentioned) and that this will be due to the huge changes these technologies will bring, which you seem to agree with..[/QUOTE]

I don't. I think that predictions of humanlike AI are too soon and the prediction that it'll be "huge" seems questionable considering the hundreds of failed predictions made by people about X innovation and how it would change everything (only for it to not materialize)

[Crumpets]

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52232907]I don't. I think that predictions of humanlike AI are too soon and the prediction that it'll be "huge" seems questionable considering the hundreds of failed predictions made by people about X innovation and how it would change everything (only for it to not materialize)[/QUOTE]

I see. Automation isn't a prediction so much as a reality that has already drastically changed our economies and societies around the world. Should humanlike AI come to fruition it would be nothing short of huge due to the ethical, philosophical and socioeconomic questions that would have to be answered. So I can see your skepticism about it becoming a reality (though I don't share it), but to say it wouldn't be a huge deal I think is totally wrong.

[.Ducky]

[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;52226390]Ok, you are acting like a fucking child, and this right here sums up exactly why.

I didn't literally mean "the works of marx has literally no bearing on marxism and the two are entirely removed from one another, so what marx wrote has absolutely no relevance to what i'm saying." because that would allow you to say "And this is why you won't get very far in an argument about Marxism/communism.". Anyone with an ounce of honesty in their body would read that turn of phrase to mean what i intended to express, which was "It doesn't matter what marx says would happen if you enact his ideas, because the evidence to the contrary is proof that that's wrong."

Grow the fuck up and learn how to debate properly and in good faith.[/QUOTE]

I'll be honest. This, to me, reads a lot more childishly than what you quoted, especially since you singled out one part of his post and practically threw a tantrum over it. Really, your entire argument has been full of smug and self-indulgent little quips that give off the impression that you're less interested in a rational discussion and more interested in shitting on this guy.

I think we have a lot to gain from serious and critical discussions over our modern economic and political institutions. Everything we've tried in human history has not been perfect, and we should always strive for better when it comes to creating a society that is more fair and just for all. Socialism and, by extention, Communism was an attempt at that, but it's apparent that in past iterations and implementations it has a number of serious issues.

I think that the volatility behind Marxist/Leninist theory doesn't do it justice. Things like the concept of the dictatorship of the proletariat and the necessity of a violent revolution are things that sink the whole ideology for me, at least as it is outlined in Marxist thought. As much as we like to say that Communism is stateless, there is a semblance of an oppressive regime that lies within the idea that the Bourgeoise must be overthrown and subsequently oppressed by the working class. Anyone with a concept of reality can see where this would fall apart in application today, and can also see how this betrays the supposed goals of a more fair and just society. If there are people that disagree with your idea of an ideal society, then that opposition must be supressed, a conflict that is inevitable in violent revolution and breeds more suffering than I am willing to accept out of a productive political-economic system.

Does that mean that the concept of Socialism or even Communism holds no place within our future? I don't know, but I don't think so. I think that whatever system we synthesize in our future will come about organically, gradually, and will be a product of our times. In a potential post-scarcity society, which I remain slightly skeptical of, we will be able to minimize human input when it comes to labor and thus will HAVE to reassess the way we look at the economics of production and distribution as, currently, the way we do business wont be able to sustain a population that cant find work. Post-scarcity in its most extreme might not be in our future, but the reality of automation and a shrinking work-force are. The sooner we have honest discussions about this sort of thing, the sooner we can find an alternative to modern Capitalism which is directly responsibile for the exploitation, suffering, and the deaths of millions world-wide.

[Sobotnik]

[QUOTE=Duck M.;52233959]In a potential post-scarcity society, which I remain slightly skeptical of, we will be able to minimize human input when it comes to labor and thus will HAVE to reassess the way we look at the economics of production and distribution as, currently, the way we do business wont be able to sustain a population that cant find work. Post-scarcity in its most extreme might not be in our future, but the reality of automation and a shrinking work-force are. The sooner we have honest discussions about this sort of thing, the sooner we can find an alternative to modern Capitalism which is directly responsibile for the exploitation, suffering, and the deaths of millions world-wide.[/QUOTE]

I think a bigger problem we have to deal with is the fact that people aren't really meant for the modern world (in the current form that it takes).

The pace of change, social isolation and atomization, the destruction of old traditions and religions, plus the empowering effect of technology (with nothing to limit us like how nature had done so beforehand) all combine to create an explosive mixture. Traditional capitalism (in the form of market activity that took place prior to the industrial revolution) worked extremely well, but the modern form it takes is only just slightly better than communism at administering a vast and complex society we are continuing to steadily lose power over.