ACCC begins lawsuit against Valve over Steam refund policies - Polidicks

Valve could learn a thing or two from EA: [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/oMAJlh0.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=DogGunn;45830556]You've missed the point. The Parliament can pass a law saying that all people in Uganda must jump on the 30th August at 3pm, but how would they expect to enforce that law? Valve has no physical presence in Australia, and even the ACCC has stated this. Any ruling made by the Federal Court of Australia has no effect until it is enforced. How would the Federal Court of Australia enforce their judgement on a company located in Washington State in the United States?[/QUOTE] Force banks by law to not allow transfers to Valve? Valve may not operate in the US but banks in Australia do.

[QUOTE=DogGunn;45830556]You've missed the point. The Parliament can pass a law saying that all people in Uganda must jump on the 30th August at 3pm, but how would they expect to enforce that law? Valve has no physical presence in Australia, and even the ACCC has stated this. Any ruling made by the Federal Court of Australia has no effect until it is enforced. How would the Federal Court of Australia enforce their judgement on a company located in Washington State in the United States?[/QUOTE] If Valve want to continue business in Australia, they have to follow Australian rules and regulations

[QUOTE=darkrei9n;45830844]Force banks by law to not allow transfers to Valve? Valve may not operate in the US but banks in Australia do.[/QUOTE] It's possible, but incredibly unlikely. It involves a fairly substantial cost to non-Valve entities. Things like blocking payment transactions, ISP blocking etc, I do not think has much precedent in Australia. [editline]29th August 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=i-am-teh-sex;45830866]If Valve want to continue business in Australia, they have to follow Australian rules and regulations[/QUOTE] The issue is not what the law is but how they are to be sanctioned for failing to comply with it. If Valve have no presence in Australia, there is nothing the Australian courts can take in order to make Valve comply with the Australian law.

[QUOTE]if a product has a major fault[/QUOTE] I can see this being exploited in Valve's favor. What is considered a "major fault" in a video game product?

[QUOTE=Electrocuter;45830878]I can see this being exploited in Valve's favor. What is considered a "major fault" in a video game product?[/QUOTE] major bugs, missing features, misleading description, etc?

The ACCC/Courts could rule Valve is infringing on consumer law and force banks to shut of transactions with the company, that sounds excessive but it could very well happen and if it did there wouldn't be a lot of happy Australians (myself) Valve has no presence in the EU but they still abide by their laws

[QUOTE=Midas22;45830155]As far as I've heard you can get refunds in the UK if you contact customer services and spout a few European and UK laws. You get your money back for that single game[b] but they'll ban your entire account in the process.[/b][/QUOTE] What the fuck? Why?

[QUOTE=fruxodaily;45830911] Valve has no presence in the EU but they still abide by their laws[/QUOTE] Out of choice. They could simply not do so, but it is in their advantage to be seen as operating ethically. I think Valve will in the short term just implement policy for Australian users and eventually overhaul their refund policy altogether.

[QUOTE=aydin690;45830626]Valve could learn a thing or two from EA: [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/oMAJlh0.png[/IMG][/QUOTE] Vice-versa too

[QUOTE=fruxodaily;45830911]The ACCC/Courts could rule Valve is infringing on consumer law and force banks to shut of transactions with the company, that sounds excessive but it could very well happen and if it did there wouldn't be a lot of happy Australians (myself)[/quote] Again, as mentioned, I doubt this would happen as I don't believe there to be much precedent in this area for that. Hey, it could be a first. [QUOTE=fruxodaily;45830911]Valve has no presence in the EU but they still abide by their laws[/QUOTE] Valve have offices in the EU, in Luxembourg.

[QUOTE=fruxodaily;45830911]The ACCC/Courts could rule Valve is infringing on consumer law and force banks to shut of transactions with the company, that sounds excessive but it could very well happen and if it did there wouldn't be a lot of happy Australians (myself) Valve has no presence in the EU but they still abide by their laws[/QUOTE] I think that's because for a company to do business in the eu it has to abide by them or it cannot operate. Valve selling games in the eu is still operating

[QUOTE=DogGunn;45830979]Again, as mentioned, I doubt this would happen as I don't believe there to be much precedent in this area for that. Hey, it could be a first. Valve have offices in the EU, in Luxembourg.[/QUOTE] They only opened the office in 2012 though. I think people could cite UK and EU laws and get refunds before then.

[QUOTE=Novangel;45831010]They only opened the office in 2012 though. I think people could cite UK and EU laws and get refunds before then.[/QUOTE] Yes, and you can cite the Australian Consumer Law too. Anything done by them in that regard is done out of goodwill, as if you sought a ruling against Valve, there would not be anyway to enforce it against them.

[QUOTE=Thomo_UK;45830983]I think that's because for a company to do business in the eu it has to abide by them or it cannot operate. Valve selling games in the eu is still operating[/QUOTE] Which is what the ACCC is saying, valve is allowing Australians to buy products therefore they are operating in this Country

Personally I've been refunded several times via simply contacting steam support, from a couple of pre-orders to games I accidently purchased and once, they even refunded my money so I could rebuy the game because it came on sale literally straight after I bought it full price. This was a while ago though. I think my last refund was 2012 or 2011

[QUOTE=Cows Rule;45830346]There should be refunds on games that were bought and played for less than an hour.[/QUOTE] Google has this option for the Play Store - the "uninstall" button is replaced with a "refund" button for the first few minutes or so (the window was actually just recently extended IIRC). There's no reason the Steam storefront can't have a "refund" button and the "Delete Local Content" in the client could be replaced with a similar button as well. Having to contact Support seems pretty unnecessary, but it's needed if you ever want to get jack shit done. Both the Play Store and the Steam storefront have many good ideas that can be swapped from one to the other. A rather theoretical example: implementing a database-like system to the Play Store like Steam already does with full app changelists. Would make the job for Android Police a whole lot easier.

[img]http://puu.sh/bcf0n/1e8078c71f.png[/img] You can get a refund on preordered games though, unless they mean Valve wont give you actual real money back. [editline]28th August 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=wickedplayer494;45831365]Google has this option for the Play Store - the "uninstall" button is replaced with a "refund" button for the first few minutes or so (the window was actually just recently extended IIRC). There's no reason the Steam storefront can't have a "refund" button and the "Delete Local Content" in the client could be replaced with a similar button as well. Having to contact Support seems pretty unnecessary, but it's needed if you ever want to get jack shit done. Both the Play Store and the Steam storefront have many good ideas that can be swapped from one to the other. A rather theoretical example: implementing a database-like system to the Play Store like Steam already does with full app changelists. Would make the job for Android Police a whole lot easier.[/QUOTE] Uh, how about we not replace the "delete" button and instead add a new refund button? There's probably a circumstance where I would need to use the delete button in the hour.

[QUOTE=gk99;45831431][img]http://puu.sh/bcf0n/1e8078c71f.png[/img] You can get a refund on preordered games though, unless they mean Valve wont give you actual real money back.[/QUOTE] You can get refunds on preordered games, and that's pretty much it. Soon as it's released, you're SOL if the game is shit or broken unless there is some [I]massive[/I] internet shitstorm like what happened with WarZ

Correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe that Valve has servers within Australia, making it that they have to abide to Australian Consumer Law.

[QUOTE=Best4bond;45831459]Correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe that Valve has servers within Australia, making it that they have to abide to Australian Consumer Law.[/QUOTE] If they do it's just CDN servers. And they don't really own them, Akamai would. With that being said you can get generally one free refund for the life of your account on Steam. While terrible it's better than nothing :v: I don't think they should allow more than one user to use a shared game though; they already give us the benefit of the doubt when it comes to sharing

If this passes and Valve has to refund titles, they'll probably just ban your entire account afterwards, or at least if you refund more than a couple of games. There's precedent, and honestly I wouldn't put it past them to do it. It's totally not right but Valve's a big corporation now and it's in their interest to keep profits high, even if there's no shareholders to push the issue.

The only fair refunding is with timeframes. They shouldn't have to allow refunds for every game owned under Steam without limitations

[QUOTE=Map in a box;45831503]If they do it's just CDN servers. And they don't really own them, Akamai would. With that being said you can get generally one free refund for the life of your account on Steam. While terrible it's better than nothing :v: I don't think they should allow more than one user to use a shared game though; they already give us the benefit of the doubt when it comes to sharing[/QUOTE] Valve has official servers for counter-strike, team fortress and Dota2, not just CDN servers.

They still don't transact Steam business there so they don't have to for example deal with Aussie export taxes(if that exists or not, dunno) when they sell a game to a country that isn't Australia. They do, however, have to stop hosting those servers in Australia if the guvment tells them to. They'd probably just move it to NZ.

[QUOTE=Map in a box;45831579]The only fair refunding is with timeframes. They shouldn't have to allow refunds for every game owned under Steam without limitations[/QUOTE] i would probably suggest two different timeframes: a limited time to start downloading/installing the game (like a week or something) and after that, a timeframe for gameplay (like 15 minutes - 1 hour) because it would make sense at first to only allow one frame of 15 minutes - 1 hour after purchase to be able to return it, except some games take forever to download

[QUOTE=Octopod;45831730]i would probably suggest two different timeframes: a limited time to start downloading/installing the game (like a week or something) and after that, a timeframe for gameplay (like 15 minutes - 1 hour) because it would make sense at first to only allow one frame of 15 minutes - 1 hour after purchase to be able to return it, except some games take forever to download[/QUOTE] [quote] You may return any EA full game digital download (PC/Mac) purchased on Origin for a full refund: Within 24 hours after you first launch the game Within seven days from your date of purchase, or Within seven days from the game's release date if you pre-ordered Whichever comes first. This is in addition to your standard return or refund rights.[/quote] Great system imo.

[url]https://www.comcourts.gov.au/file/Federal/P/NSD886/2014/actions[/url] Will have to see what happens on the 16th of September. Oddly enough, ACCC has written that the first directions hearing is on the 7th October, however, the registry has it in as the 16th of September. I would like to see their Statement of Claim, but ain't paying the $43 for it.

[QUOTE=Midas22;45830155]You get your money back for that single game but they'll ban your entire account in the process.[/QUOTE] Is this a bloody fucking joke? How is that even something considered remotely acceptable?

[QUOTE=ElectricSquid;45832619]Is this a bloody fucking joke? How is that even something considered remotely acceptable?[/QUOTE] Because it's not true. The only way you get banned from something like this is if you chargeback via your bank account.