ACCC begins lawsuit against Valve over Steam refund policies

[Noth]

[QUOTE=Brandy92;45830420]They offer games in local currency[/QUOTE]

Pigs arse they do, my bank fucks me with foreign currency fees every time I buy something on Steam

[DogGunn]

[QUOTE=Noth;45832695]Pigs arse they do, my bank fucks me with foreign currency fees every time I buy something on Steam[/QUOTE]

Open up a Citibank Plus Account:
[url]http://www.citibank.com.au/aus/banking/everyday_banking/citibank_plus.htm[/url]

No fees at all, 0% foreign transaction fee, and they use Visa's market rate for the currency conversion.

It's been awesome since I started using it last year or so.

[elix]

Ugh, fucking IronPi did this. Valve is being dragged into an international consumer protection disagreement over a fuckcunt who got himself hardbanned from Rust after spamming garry's experimental server with shit for literal weeks until garry was [I]forced[/I] to stop what he was doing and code kick/ban functionality.

[URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1405828"]After he got banned from the game, he came to brag about it.[/URL] He thought that his juvenile horseshit would be tolerated and rewarded, and instead he got pbanned. He then tried coming back on like 6 alts.

[URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1411014"]If you're Gold, here's his stupid RC thread.[/URL]

Rust Experimental, now:

 public static void Load()
  {
    BanList.Clear();
    BanList.Add(76561197965853940UL, "Spike Spiegel", "Trolling, spamming chat");
    BanList.Add(76561197978026540UL, "Iron Pi", "Trolling, spamming chat");
    string serverFolder = server.GetServerFolder("cfg");
    if (!File.Exists(serverFolder + "/bans.cfg"))
      return;
    string strConfig = File.ReadAllText(serverFolder + "/bans.cfg");
    if (string.IsNullOrEmpty(strConfig))
      return;
    Debug.Log((object) ("Running " + serverFolder + "/bans.cfg"));
    ConsoleSystem.RunConfig(strConfig, false);
  }

This asshole doesn't deserve a refund in any sense. He played Rust plenty, and his own misconduct saw his privileges revoked as is acceptable under the Steam SA and any software license ever. No judge is going to go "yes, consumer protection means enforcing your right to be an insufferable cunt".

[DogGunn]

I doubt it was IronPi. Plenty of people have complained to the ACCC.
It's possible he was one of them.

In the original Statement of Claim lodged to the Court by the ACCC, three people are listed as having trouble with Valve and the consumer guarantees afforded by the Australian Consumer Law.

[Adlertag1940]

I guess IronPi wasn't fucking around after all.

[elix]

[QUOTE=DogGunn;45832734]I doubt it was IronPi. Plenty of people have complained to the ACCC.
It's possible he was one of them.

In the original Statement of Claim lodged to the Court by the ACCC, three people are listed as having trouble with Valve and the consumer guarantees afforded by the Australian Consumer Law.[/QUOTE]

[URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1411014&p=45570197&viewfull=1#post45570197"]Three weeks ago, IronPi threatened to take things further if garry/Valve didn't give in to his juvenile demands.[/URL]

[URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1411014&p=45829933&viewfull=1#post45829933"]He claims credit.[/URL]

[Deadoon]

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;45832753]this will explain strayan rights to everyone
if an international company wants to market to australia, they must abide by australian laws as the transaction takes place (at least half of it) in australia

these laws absolutely fuck up most of early access games[/QUOTE]

The problem is how do you enforce it, once again.

Also early access games would be protected as there is a disclaimer that they are unfinished products and that the features are of what the finished version will contain, thus would be under a guarantee.

[DogGunn]

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;45832790][URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1411014&p=45570197&viewfull=1#post45570197"]Three weeks ago, IronPi threatened to take things further if garry/Valve didn't give in to his juvenile demands.[/URL]

[URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1411014&p=45829933&viewfull=1#post45829933"]He claims credit.[/URL][/QUOTE]

Ahh didn't see the edit before. However, I still have my doubts. The Statement of Claim will eventually be published. We shall see though.

[Unknown]

[QUOTE=Novangel;45832524]Great system imo.[/QUOTE]

[quote]non-EA games purchased on Origin are excluded from the Great Game Guarantee[/quote]

It is a great system, but people seem to so often overlook that it doesn't apply to everything sold on origin, because it (most likely) can't.

At this point Steam especially has a massive amount of games from a wide range of publishers and developers, some of which aren't even in business anymore. A good number (probably the vast majority) of these games don't purely use Steam as DRM, which means in order to offer refunds Steam's system would have to be able to revoke licenses on third party DRM services. This simply may not be possible on a large scale if the publisher doesn't have some sort of automated system in place which Valve has access to.

As such, even if Valve wanted to offer automated refunds, Valve can't just add a button that removes the game from your steam account and refunds you the cost because it isn't that simple, and it may not even be possible at all in some cases.

[Deadoon]

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;45832815]As stated earlier, australian government would disallow transactions to valve from australian banks as more of a "punishment" for not abiding.

Early access games in their unfinished state would be protected sure, but could easily be argued on full release/abandonment that the games are not what was promised or even reasonable in terms of quality.[/QUOTE]

So force banks to not deal the banks bot what do you do with the payment providers that valve supports? You know like paypal.

You would still be able to buy via paypal. If they banned transactions via paypal, I guess you'd end up with a whole lot more pissed off people.

[Deadoon]

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;45832836][URL]http://store.steampowered.com/earlyaccessfaq/[/URL]

This page is generally what would be considered the sellers guarantee for early access, nowhere in this does it say that the game will never be released, so in cases of games that are just fucking dropped by the developers after they get a decent amount of money, valve would be required to refund them under Australian Consumer Law.

I'm not saying this stuff to be a baby about all of this, it's just the literal law.

The responsibility lands on the seller, no matter what they say.

also in terms of games like air control thats just gonna be one of those no brainer "this can be refunded" cases

[editline]29th August 2014[/editline]

Chances are yep, Australian government isn't "lazy" when it comes to this, they will generally fuck up anyone that isn't apple when it comes to this

A while ago they bitched at Adobe/apple/microsoft/etc about the pricing difference on digital products, the prices got lowered a hefty amount despite the companies bitching.[/QUOTE]

I wonder how many of your online stores that rely on paypal will go in the red because of that then.

I see the detriments being far worse than the benifits.

Also, I don't mean companies, I mean actual people. You know, banning them from their money in paypal would basically prevent every business and person from using a common payment provider.

[Deadoon]

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;45832858]they'l bitch at paypal to stop australian transactions to steam, if paypal don't cooperate then they'l have an issue with paypal itself, if paypal don't co-operate under that then yeah itl be a shitstorm because valve dont want to refund people for shitty games on the store they barely facilitate[/QUOTE]

You don't realize that people are irrational, they'll blame the government. This is especially true when it is a government decision that fucks them over.

All you need is a few news agencies to say "Australian courts ban companies from using paypal" and you have a whole lot of complaints everywhere.

[elix]

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;45832794]even if this is remotely true, it doesn't mean valve aren't breaking australian consumer law[/QUOTE]

If Valve is breaking Australian consumer law, then Valve can answer to the Australian legal system for its misdeeds. I have no argument here.

But if, in fact, this action was instigated by IronPi and his butthurt bullshit, this is downright fucking embarrassing. He expects a refund for Rust after putting in several hundred hours into legacy and then trolling the shit out of garry's public experimental dev server for fun out of his own admission.

[Deadoon]

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;45832867]And the government will turn to media to talk shit about valve, which murdoch co. (as shitty as they are) would probably be fine with helping out[/QUOTE]

I wonder when you will get ACCC to sue "dlsite" for subpar content, oh wait they sell stuff illegal in australia, so they shouldn't be able to do business but do so anyways.

IF you are wondering where this is going, it is simple. If they ban paypal transactions, it would eventually get to the point of payment providers all being banned due to different countries laws.

[Bumrang]

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;45832866]If Valve is breaking Australian consumer law, then Valve can answer to the Australian legal system for its misdeeds. I have no argument here.

But if, in fact, this action was instigated by IronPi and his butthurt bullshit, this is downright fucking embarrassing. He expects a refund for Rust after putting in several hundred hours into legacy and then trolling the shit out of garry's public experimental dev server for fun out of his own admission.[/QUOTE]

you actually think he did this? lmao

[Viva_]

[QUOTE=Bumrang;45832901]you actually think he did this? lmao[/QUOTE]

it's hilarious because he thinks he actually caused it too, as evident by his refugee post.

[Scratch]

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;45832753]this will explain strayan rights to everyone
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE8BB-ioNRw[/media]
[/QUOTE]

This video makes me say 'Bullshit and Illegal' to a lot of businesses.
Especially Razer

[t]http://5crat.ch/a/v0f3[/t]

Watch the video and see for yourself
[url]http://www.razerzone.com/warranty[/url]

[Deadoon]

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;45832900]same argument as to why you don't actively talk shit to everyone who has ever made you slightly mad

its up to people to remind you or for people to piss you off even more again

if someone reported dlsite and the govt feels the need to protect consumer rights or intervene in sales, then they will.

the only reason they will intervene and stop transactions is if valve isn't reasonable.[/QUOTE]

I am just saying that ruling a ban of paypal would hurt Australian businesses more than valve. Valve could just isolate your system and say until you define a reasonable time for return legally, and a reasonable expected quality and what it entails, they will await a court decision before issuance of refunds.

[Deadoon]

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;45832921]chances are they've just got a shitload of complaints in the past few months relating to steam being a shitheap of a storefront with bad early access and broken full releases and they want to deal with it through an obvious breach with their refund policy
[/QUOTE]

All they would need to do to defend themselves in majority of the circumstances provided is to ask for a definition.

[QUOTE]consumers were not entitled to a refund for any games sold by Valve via Steam in any circumstances;

Valve had excluded, restricted or modified statutory guarantees and/or warranties that goods would be of acceptable quality;

Valve was not under any obligation to repair, replace or provide a refund for a game where the consumer had not contacted and attempted to resolve the problem with the computer game developer; and

the statutory consumer guarantees did not apply to games sold by Valve.[/QUOTE]
Define acceptable quality.

No seriously define it.

I liked Bet on soldier. Everyone says it is crap, thus my opinion of it being acceptable is now worthless legally if the definitions are as the video claims.

Considering the ruling would be against valve, you would have to harm companies which have no connections to them and had no chance to defend themselves against an overbroad ruling in order to affect valve.

[QUOTE=Matthew0505;45832948]Then what's their excuse for the watered down L4D2[/QUOTE]

Legally mandated ratings board to be able to have a product be available in[B] retail establishements[/B].

[Scratch]

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;45832921]Again, if they get enough complaints chances are the govt will do something, until that time a lot of us are shit out of luck.
If you want to be super safe with tech shit, spend the extra buck and get them from australian stores (Even shit like umart/pccasegear) as they are australian retailers directly under Australian Consumer Law[/QUOTE]

It was a gift :/
I really wanted to try return it without hassle after they remove a six month old product from their shitnapse software, rendering macro buttons unusable...

Planned Obsolescence at it's finest
[video=youtube;KjTq5BnbxN0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjTq5BnbxN0[/video]

[Zet]

[QUOTE=gk99;45831431][img]http://puu.sh/bcf0n/1e8078c71f.png[/img]

You can get a refund on preordered games though, unless they mean Valve wont give you actual real money back.[/QUOTE]
Valve does refund you on pre-ordered items... but in steam wallet money.

[Viva_]

[QUOTE=Zet;45832966]Valve does refund you on pre-ordered items... but in steam wallet money.[/QUOTE]

which is a common business practice really, many places do this.

[Scratch]

God I love the Chasers

[t]http://5crat.ch/a/uh4p[/t]
[url]http://youtu.be/AAkb1KCXQw0?t=3m21s[/url]

This video is basically the same with Valve

[ubersoldier]

I honestly think that the main reason Valve has a strict absolute no refund at any point after release is because it would be exploited in some fashion. If it can happen, then there's a pretty damn good chance that it will happen. For example, if there were no real "restrictions" on refunds, people might start refunding things for dumbass reasons that they find "completely justifiable".

Game can't run properly on my 8 year old hardware because I believe in the "just optimize your game you lazy shits" stance? REFUND!

I'm not capable of grasping the games mechanics, and because of this it's near "unplayable"? REFUND!

Played it on the easiest difficulty and completely plowed through it in literally 4 hours, and then personally found it "too easy and unintuitive"? REFUND!

Main character ate some meat and that's against my choice of lifestyle and for reasons incomprehensible to others made me "angry and offended"? REFUND!

[Deadoon]

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;45832978]try actually watching the video i posted

[IMG]http://puu.sh/bcs5v/f356085d9c.png[/IMG]
this is also based on what a reasonable consumer would think, not the store

breaks a lot of the "no refund" shit, pretty much every early access game should be refundable at any time.[/QUOTE]

Now here is the problem lets use that plane game posted a bit ago.
What the game claims:
[QUOTE]Air Control is a new gen airplane simulator.[1] It is the first airplane game, where plane compartment is visible. [3]
It allows you to play several roles in different game modes : stewardess, mechanic, pilot and passenger.[1]

There are 3 modes in the game : "Realistic mode", "Killjoy mode" and "Casual mode".[1]

Realistic mode allows you to play more as a pilot than as a stewardess. [1]This mode contains high quality airplane models with compartment just like in real planes. [2]
Killjoy mode allows you to play as a pilot and as a passenger the same time.[1] You can view flight as a passenger from the compartment while you are controlling the airplane.[1]
Casual mode is a "Just for fun" mode.[2] It is silly, made to entertain you.[2] It contains no story and levels are not connected. [1]

Try the best flight simulation in the history of computer games today![4]
[/QUOTE]

1 is a statement that is verifiable.
2 is a statement that is opinion, unverifiable or a quote.

The sole 3 is a questionable statement. Does it refer to simulations and games or just games? And what separate them. OR does it refer to programs that refer to themselves as "airplane games".

4 Can be called an ambiguous statement as well. Does it refer to the history of today(the day it was written), or the history until that day?

fit for all.... - It plays and supposedly does it's job, albeit poorly.
Acceptable in appearance and finish- the product is displayed quite clearly in it's quality and is undamaged in any way.
Free of defects- impossible for any form of software, software is almost invariably perfect in it's condition but is subject to failures no matter the case.
safe- check No viruses
Durable- check data integrity is clean likely.

Nature- software, infinite integrity and re-usability.
Price paid- low, VERY low as far as flight sims are concerned.
Statements- see above.
representations- opinions, see above.
Other relevent circumstance: Poor user reviews on the same page.

You can make anything look good despite it's obvious flaws if that is the test.

[elix]

[QUOTE=ubersoldier;45833062]I honestly think that the main reason Valve has a strict absolute no refund at any point after release is because it would be exploited in some fashion. If it can happen, then there's a pretty damn good chance that it will happen. For example, if there were no real "restrictions" on refunds, people might start refunding things for dumbass reasons that they find "completely justifiable".

Game can't run properly on my 8 year old hardware because I believe in the "just optimize your game you lazy shits" stance? REFUND!

I'm not capable of grasping the games mechanics, and because of this it's near "unplayable"? REFUND!

Played it on the easiest difficulty and completely plowed through it in literally 4 hours, and then personally found it "too easy and unintuitive"? REFUND!

Main character ate some meat and that's against my choice of lifestyle and for reasons incomprehensible to others made me "angry and offended"? REFUND![/QUOTE]

Got VAC banned for admitted cheating after 700 hours of playtime? REFUND!

[1eevee1]

...If you played the thing for 700 hours, then you could reasonably assume that it worked, so I'd assume that any requests for refunds would be met with a "No, it worked, go screw yourself." response.

Unless you're the kind of person that spends nearly a month, at 24 hours a day, trying to make a game work.

[Deadoon]

[QUOTE=1Eevee1;45833121]...If you played the thing for 700 hours, then you could reasonably assume that it worked, so I'd assume that any requests for refunds would be met with a "No, it worked, go screw yourself." response.

Unless you're the kind of person that spends nearly a month, at 24 hours a day, trying to make a game work.[/QUOTE]

But the product is still in perfect condition, the manufacturer has just revoked your ability to using their services, thus preventing you from using your product as intended.

[fruxodaily]

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;45833104]Got VAC banned for admitted cheating after 700 hours of playtime? REFUND![/QUOTE]
You should not be able to request a refund on previously purchased items unless you did it within 2 weeks or 5 hours of game time I reckon

Else then it's super exploitable

[3Dprinter]

[url]http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page4369.asp[/url]

Would it be so hard to treat the digital game as an import and add it to this list? Scented erasers and erasers which look like food are on the list..

I mean, they ban the import of diamonds of a certain origin (admittedly for more serious reasons) but I still think it fits, if valve absolutely refuses to budge.

edit'

yeah like this bit

Pornography and other objectionable material (restricted import)
Description:

Includes publications, films[B], computer games[/B] and any other goods that describe, depict, express or otherwise deal with matters of sex, drug misuse or addiction, crime cruelty, violence, terrorist acts or revolting or abhorrent phenomena in such a way that they offend against the standards of morality, decency and propriety generally accepted by reasonable adults.