[QUOTE=David29;37303861]No. You would have a valid point if they had just the cross and forbade any other kind of symbol or memorial - but no-one has done that.[/QUOTE]
they tried. how many times we gotta say this?
[quote] Silverman said that if the 9/11 Memorial foundation allows all other religious memorials of equal size and prominence to be displayed in the museum, the group would "happily, happily, drop the case."
"It's an all or nothing deal. They can remove the cross, or they can let everybody else in. Either way is legal and we would drop the case," Silverman said. [/quote]
[QUOTE=David29;37303861]No. You would have a valid point if they had just the cross and [B]forbade any other kind of symbol or memorial[/B] - but no-one has done that. It's not disrespectful if other religions haven't tried putting up their own symbols.
[/QUOTE]
Um they are attempting to throw out the lawsuit that would make them do this.
So yeah, they are in fact forbidding any other symbols.
[QUOTE=BoysLightUp;37299894]I'm under the assumption this cross was placed very soon after the towers fell, to become a symbol of hope and defiance. If I'm right, then it's a historically-significant artifact - so no, you can't retrospectively stick a bunch of other symbols there and claim they're just as valid when they aren't.
Also, the fact it has religious meaning is irrelevant. That'd be like demanding that all Jewish ornaments be removed from a Holocaust museum, or that every other religious icon be placed there as well.[/QUOTE]
Then put it upside down if it's an artifact. It's not so much of a christian symbol then (perhaps more anti-christian). Why does the short end have to be up if not a cross?
I don't really understand what the cross has to do with 9/11, but I suppose people are entitled to do what they want. What is kind of funny to me is that they make the claim that it is just an artifact, but I really doubt anything in the wreckage similar to a Muslim sign would have been put on this kind of pedestal.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;37294411]maybe you should read the article, they are arguing that there should be something commemorating the beliefs or lack off of all the people that died in 9/11. not only that but i think the government doesn't have freedom of religion and this is public property and is government funded. and yeah this isn't forcing views on anyone, it's more like forcing christians to not force their views on everyone, which they have been doing for the past like 1500 years[/QUOTE]
i stand corrected. Sorry I was very high earlier and was jumping between things like crazy. I apologize sir.
Haha, non seculiar countries.
I bet there are mexicans, turkish and other frenchmen in this thread laughing their asses off right now.
[QUOTE=Scarabix;37306303]Haha, non seculiar countries.
I bet there are mexicans, turkish and other frenchmen in this thread laughing their asses off right now.[/QUOTE]
Well being secular is in the constitution (Supreme Court interpretation of 1st Amendment), but whether we are really secular in practice is a different question. Surely if this is grounds to say America as a whole is not secular, then Mexico's Easter celebrations or any such equivalent event in Turkey or France is as well.
[editline]18th August 2012[/editline]
Also the condescension was not needed.
I want to see the cross before it was filed down.
[QUOTE=Megafan;37306768]Well being secular is in the constitution (Supreme Court interpretation of 1st Amendment), but whether we are really secular in practice is a different question. Surely if this is grounds to say America as a whole is not secular, then Mexico's Easter celebrations or any such equivalent event in Turkey or France is as well.
[editline]18th August 2012[/editline]
Also the condescension was not needed.[/QUOTE]
France is absolutely seculiar, and here we go absolutely buttmad every time muslims or christians try to make it otherwise, just to make sure. As for Turkey I haven't seen religious icons anywhere outside of their mosques/houses when I went there. As for Mexico, never been there.
America, on the other hand, has done an extremely poor job at separating church and state, and I think it's one of the few thing we can be condescendent about.
[sp]I mean it's not like we can be condescendent about our army or the ammount of work produced on mondays[/sp] :v:
[QUOTE=Harry3;37303227]I bet these Atheists spend more time thinking about God than most Christians do.[/QUOTE]
I hear this argument all the time. You realize that Christians basically run the USA (despite a constitution that should prevent that from happening) right? These people aren't fighting God (they don't believe he exists, in case that wasn't clear), they're fighting Christians. Not a difficult concept to understand.
[QUOTE=Scarabix;37306979]France is absolutely seculiar, and here we go absolutely buttmad every time muslims or christians try to make it otherwise, just to make sure. As for Turkey I haven't seen religious icons anywhere outside of their mosques/houses when I went there. As for Mexico, never been there.
America, on the other hand, has done an extremely poor job at separating church and state, and I think it's one of the few thing we can be condescendent about.
[sp]I mean it's not like we can be condescendent about our army or the ammount of work produced on mondays[/sp] :v:[/QUOTE]
You think the US is hella religious?
Take a look at Mexico.
NEVER FORGET...
oh shut up
[QUOTE=Zambies!;37307328]You think the US is hella religious?
Take a look at Mexico.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE] As for Mexico, never been there.[/QUOTE]
Having a big cross in the main area of a memorial that's dedicated to ALL of the victims is not appropriate. Having a memorial somewhere on the grounds dedicated specifically to Christian victims would be fine.
the cross has always been the christian symbol.
also i saw the pic as well.
plus it was 'blessed'.
yeah no christian religous connotation at all.
it's actually really full of themselves to do this. as if Christianity watches over all even those not apart of the flock bla bla a christian themed memorial is enough/appropriate because our god watches over you all even though you're all heretics.
that's the message i get. of course they're not being that assholish about it but it's pretty god damn smug. you think we could get a memorial that means all it can mean to more than just one group?
sure everyone else who isn't christian still sees it as the memorial, but totally differently than someone who's christian probably.
The way i look at it, The cross isn't a memorial too all the people who died, it's a memorial too anyone religious who died.
If you ask the question, "well why not a memorial for people who aren't religious?" my question to that is... What do you give them besides their name on a plaque? What kind of memorial would you make that accurately represents ALL THOSE peoples memories?
I get the feeling I'll be rated dumb for this but..it's how I view it.
[QUOTE=Bridger;37307823]
I get the feeling I'll be rated dumb for this but..it's how I view it.[/QUOTE]
Well you basically said that if you don't believe in god you must not be remembered. In my book that's more than worth a dumb.
[QUOTE=Scarabix;37307850]Well you basically said that if you don't believe in god you must not be remembered. In my book that's more than worth a dumb.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry you took it that way.
That isn't really what I meant though, what I'm trying to figure out is, it's not as easy too do something that represents so many different people at once.
The cross is almost a universal image of religion, so you can just smack that down as a memorial, but what kind of thing would you do for an atheist?
something artistic maybe..
But in no way do I think you shouldn't be remembered or honored if you're not religious, I should have worded my post better.
Also I'm working on the assumption that everyone who died that day has their name somewhere in that memorial area.
[QUOTE=Bridger;37307881]I'm sorry you took it that way.
That isn't really what I meant though, what I'm trying to figure out is, it's not as easy too do something that represents so many different people at once.
The cross is almost a universal image of religion, so you can just smack that down as a memorial, but what kind of thing would you do for an atheist?
something artistic maybe..
But in no way do I think you shouldn't be remembered or honored if you're not religious, I should have worded my post better.[/QUOTE]
well how about we just take what we currently have and remove the cross?
sounds like the easiest solution to me.
[QUOTE=Scarabix;37307899]well how about we just take what we currently have and remove the cross?
sounds like the easiest solution to me.[/QUOTE]
I think we would run into a similar problem.
Since it's already there religious people would be offended that it's being removed.
It would be nice if we could just know the beliefs of all these people and be able to make memorials special for them.
They didn't deserve too die that day, so it would be the least we could do too honor their memories.
A man can dream I guess.
[QUOTE=Bridger;37307881]I'm sorry you took it that way.
That isn't really what I meant though, what I'm trying to figure out is, it's not as easy too do something that represents so many different people at once.
The cross is almost a universal image of religion, so you can just smack that down as a memorial, but what kind of thing would you do for an atheist?
something artistic maybe..
But in no way do I think you shouldn't be remembered or honored if you're not religious, I should have worded my post better.
Also I'm working on the assumption that everyone who died that day has their name somewhere in that memorial area.[/QUOTE]
Secular Humanism has a symbol, and it represents atheists pretty well.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism[/url]
[img]http://ikesharpless.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/humanism.7375711_std.png[/img]
Or instead of a religious symbol, they could make a statue of an eagle or some shit that isn't religious to represent everyone.
[QUOTE=Bridger;37307938]I think we would run into a similar problem.
Since it's already there religious people would be offended that it's being removed.
It would be nice if we could just know the beliefs of all these people and be able to make memorials special for them.
They didn't deserve too die that day, so it would be the least we could do too honor their memories.
A man can dream I guess.[/QUOTE]
Except most of them already have their own tombs with crosses or what have you. The cross is unnecessary.
[QUOTE=PvtCupcakes;37307959]Secular Humanism has a symbol, and it represents atheists pretty well.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism[/url]
[img]http://ikesharpless.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/humanism.7375711_std.png[/img]
Or instead of a religious symbol, they could make a statue of an eagle or some shit that isn't religious to represent everyone.[/QUOTE]
... Or they can continue to have crosses on Christians' gravestones because crosses mean a goddamned lot to some people.
I, as an atheist, would not want any symbol on my grave (though I respect other atheists' rights to have symbols). I think that to have an atom like the one picture makes it seem like I worship science or some shit, when it's pretty clear that for me (and indeed most atheists I'm sure) the belief that there is no God doesn'r really mean much to me, certainly less than the beliefs of a Jew or Christian.
[QUOTE=Kefirman;37287366]Well, they have a point - there should't only be Christian cross, why not to present other religious symbols?
And why the hell should something represent atheism? What can they choose for it?[/QUOTE]
The cross is there because the picture of it was widely used as a symbol for hope by Christians who represent 75% of the population of the United States. Because it was widely publicized and associated with the event, it belongs in the museum, religious or no. There were no other religious symbols made in the wreckage (obviously two lines had to occur somewhere) and that's why there are none in the museum. Because they don't exist.
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;37308072]The cross is there because the picture of it was widely used as a symbol for hope by Christians who represent 75% of the population of the United States. Because it was widely publicized and associated with the event, it belongs in the museum, religious or no. There were no other religious symbols made in the wreckage (obviously two lines had to occur somewhere) and that's why there are none in the museum. Because they don't exist.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Paramud;37300561]They aren't putting it in the museum as an artifact, they're putting it in the museum as a fucking memorial. If it just had a plaque in front of it that read "This cross was found in the wreckage, and treated by some Christians as a huge religious thing or whatever, who really gives a shit," [b]no one[/b] would be contesting it. It'd be another dusty relic in a museum. But it isn't. It's a public memorial that is [b]clearly and undeniably[/b] promoting a religion.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;37308072]The cross is there because the picture of it was widely used as a symbol for hope by Christians who represent 75% of the population of the United States. Because it was widely publicized and associated with the event, it belongs in the museum, religious or no. There were no other religious symbols made in the wreckage (obviously two lines had to occur somewhere) and that's why there are none in the museum. Because they don't exist.[/QUOTE]
Yeah fuck minorities :v:
[QUOTE=Bobie;37299049]i hate people who generalize an entire people under one single asinine and uneducated belief.[/QUOTE]
No. I hate people that think others need to care about their beliefs. I'll be honest I could've worded it better, but I just don't think people need to try so hard to prove a point.
[QUOTE=Paramud;37300561]They aren't putting it in the museum as an artifact, they're putting it in the museum as a fucking memorial. If it just had a plaque in front of it that read "This cross was found in the wreckage, and treated by some Christians as a huge religious thing or whatever, who really gives a shit," [b]no one[/b] would be contesting it. It'd be another dusty relic in a museum. But it isn't. It's a public memorial that is [b]clearly and undeniably[/b] promoting a religion.
I can't speak for Boxbot, but the fact that it's a clear violation of the law being almost completely overlooked because it's Christian in nature pisses me off.[/QUOTE]
A memorial? Only according to Silverman, according to that article. The museum has labelled it a piece of historical significance. I'm not prepared to believe the museum are trying to create a Christianised shrine until I see evidence apart from the words of Silverman.
[QUOTE=Paramud;37300561]They aren't putting it in the museum as an artifact, they're putting it in the museum as a fucking memorial. If it just had a plaque in front of it that read "This cross was found in the wreckage, and treated by some Christians as a huge religious thing or whatever, who really gives a shit," [b]no one[/b] would be contesting it. It'd be another dusty relic in a museum. But it isn't. It's a public memorial that is [b]clearly and undeniably[/b] promoting a religion.
I can't speak for Boxbot, but the fact that it's a clear violation of the law being almost completely overlooked because it's Christian in nature pisses me off.[/QUOTE]
It's clear and undeniable because you say it is? It's not clear to me. what's clear to me is that something significant enough to have its own lengthy wikipedia page is probably significant enough to belong in a museum. It's big because it's fucking support beams. If you really think they have to say "who gives a shit" and mock the coping mechanisms of millions of people you're a dumbass.
[editline]19th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Scarabix;37308554]Yeah fuck minorities :v:[/QUOTE]
Not even close to what I said :)
[QUOTE=FlakAttack;37307295]I hear this argument all the time. You realize that Christians basically run the USA (despite a constitution that should prevent that from happening) right? These people aren't fighting God (they don't believe he exists, in case that wasn't clear), they're fighting Christians. Not a difficult concept to understand.[/QUOTE]
Didnt realise my comment pointed towards an misunderstanding of anything. Was simply an observation.
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