[QUOTE=Venezuelan;37312853]It's clear and undeniable because you say it is? It's not clear to me. what's clear to me is that something significant enough to have its own lengthy wikipedia page is probably significant enough to belong in a museum. It's big because it's fucking support beams. If you really think they have to say "who gives a shit" and mock the coping mechanisms of millions of people you're a dumbass.[/QUOTE]
It's clear and undeniable because they're denying (and actively fighting) any other type of religious memorial.
[quote]Silverman said that if the 9/11 Memorial foundation allows all other religious memorials of equal size and prominence to be displayed in the museum, the group would "happily, happily, drop the case."
"It's an all or nothing deal. They can remove the cross, or they can let everybody else in. Either way is legal and we would drop the case," Silverman said.[/quote]
Maybe make a couple fucking inferences once in a while instead of disregarding evidence that's right in front of you.
Silverman would drop the case if they'd allow other religious memorials or artifacts into the museum. The fact that he isn't dropping the suit shows that they aren't, the only reason being that they want to disallow other religious objects in. Obviously they care deeply about it, otherwise they wouldn't hold up the case if the cross being the only religious memorial wasn't important to them because no one is willing to go to court over something they don't fully support. It's obvious someone up the ladder really doesn't want other religions memorialized.
If they were a private organization using private funds, they can deny whatever the fuck they want. They could turn the entire building into a fucking church for all I care. But they aren't. They're using public funds to push a religious memorial in a public area.
Which is [b]fucking illegal[/b].
[QUOTE=Paramud;37314167]It's clear and undeniable because they're denying (and actively fighting) any other type of religious memorial.[/QUOTE]
there was no other religious symbol widely associated with 9/11 besides the big support beam cross that was created by sheer coincidence. what other religious thing would go in the museum?
[editline]19th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Paramud;37314167]Which is [b]fucking illegal[/b].[/QUOTE]
no it's not, lemon test, learn the law please.
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;37314478]there was no other religious symbol widely associated with 9/11 besides the big support beam cross that was created by sheer coincidence. what other religious thing would go in the museum?[/quote]
Any other religious memorial of equal size. Whether or not it was created by the event is irrelevant.
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;37314478]no it's not, lemon test, learn the law please.[/QUOTE]
[url=http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?navby=volpage&court=us&vol=330&page=15#15](yes it is)[/url]
[quote=330 U.S., at 15 -16]No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever from they may adopt to teach or practice religion.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Paramud;37314544]Any other religious memorial of equal size. Whether or not it was created by the event is irrelevant.[/QUOTE]
So basically you are proposing making something up for a historical museum?
also, if you don't even understand the Lemon Test you really shouldn't be in this argument.
[QUOTE]The Court's decision in this case established the "Lemon test", which details the requirements for legislation concerning religion. It consists of three prongs:
*The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
*The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
*The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.
If any of these 3 prongs are violated, the government's action is deemed unconstitutional under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;37314584]So basically you are proposing making something up for a historical museum?[/quote]
No, I'm suggesting a memorial to, you know, all the victims of 9/11 instead of just the Christians.
Maybe I'm just being a dick, though.
[quote]also, if you don't even understand the Lemon Test you really shouldn't be in this argument.[/QUOTE]
Care to elaborate on how this invalidates the fact that using tax dollars to promote a religion is unconstitutional?
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;37314601]I don't see how a cross is historical. Crosses are so common there were probably dozens in the rubble.[/QUOTE]
There probably were, yes, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Center_cross"]but this specific one was pretty well circulated[/URL]. A large number of people attributed significance to it, whether or not you or I share that view is irrelevant.
[editline]19th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Paramud;37314627]No, I'm suggesting a memorial to, you know, all the victims of 9/11 instead of just the Christians.[/QUOTE]
it isn't one, one exhibit does not make it a "christian memorial"
[QUOTE=Paramud;37314627]Care to elaborate on how this invalidates the fact that using tax dollars to promote a religion is unconstitutional?[/QUOTE]
I shouldn't have to waste my time explaining but hell why not. The Lemon Test is what the Supreme Court uses to determine if a law breaks separation of church and state. So let's put funding of this museum through it.
[QUOTE]*The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;[/QUOTE]
Yup, a museum and memorial is secular.
[QUOTE]*The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;[/QUOTE]
Nope, it may have a secondary effect (but probably not), but definitely not a primary. The cross is one piece of a large whole.
[QUOTE]*The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.[/QUOTE]
Giving money to a memorial and museum is the furthest thing from entanglement with religion.
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;37314645]it isn't one, one exhibit does not make it a "christian memorial"[/quote]
The cross is. Don't even try to argue that it isn't a religious symbol.
[quote]Yup, a museum and memorial is secular.[/quote]
The cross isn't, and the fact that they're devoted to including a Christian symbol as a memorial and no others should make it obvious that they aren't being secular about it.
And don't try to act like the fact that it's a museum makes it religion neutral. Museums have no inherent qualities beyond storing objects of a historical nature.
[quote]Nope, it may have a secondary effect (but probably not), but definitely not a primary. The cross is one piece of a large whole.[/quote]
True.
[quote]Giving money to a memorial and museum is the furthest thing from entanglement with religion.[/QUOTE]
Except for when one of them is religious by nature, you dolt.
You're only putting the museum through the lemon test, not the actual cross.
[QUOTE=PvtCupcakes;37314910]You're only putting the museum through the lemon test, not the actual cross.[/QUOTE]
because the government is funding the museum, not the cross? That's the whole point of the fucking test.
[editline]19th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Paramud;37314868]The cross isn't, and the fact that they're devoted to including a Christian symbol as a memorial and no others should make it obvious that they aren't being secular about it.
And don't try to act like the fact that it's a museum makes it religion neutral. Museums have no inherent qualities beyond storing objects of a historical nature.[/QUOTE]
I highly doubt you'd attempt to get the thousands of exhibits religious in nature in publicly funded museums all over removed. I mean, shit, any museum with Renaissance art would be "promoting religion" by this definition.
[QUOTE=Paramud;37314868]Except for when one of them is religious by nature, you dolt.[/QUOTE]
That's not entanglement, like by any definition.
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;37314966]because the government is funding the museum, not the cross? That's the whole point of the fucking test.[/quote]
And oh guess what
The museum is using those public funds to promote a religion and discriminate against others
[b]Which is fucking illegal[/b]
Please, think, in any capacity. Any at all.
[quote]I highly doubt you'd attempt to get the thousands of exhibits religious in nature in publicly funded museums all over removed. I mean, shit, any museum with Renaissance art would be "promoting religion" by this definition.[/quote]
It's not the fact that they're promoting religion, it's that they're promoting Christianity and denying any other religious memorial. It has been said, [b]numerous fucking times[/b], that the AA would drop the case if they would simply [b]allow other religious memorials[/b].
[quote]Silverman said that if the 9/11 Memorial foundation allows all other religious memorials of equal size and prominence to be displayed in the museum, the group would "happily, happily, drop the case."[/quote]
[quote]if the 9/11 Memorial foundation allows all other religious memorials ... the group would "happily, happily, drop the case."[/quote]
[quote]if the 9/11 Memorial foundation allows all other religious memorials[/quote]
[highlight]^READ THIS^[/highlight]
[highlight]FUCKING READ IT[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Paramud;37315075]And oh guess what
The museum is using those public funds to promote a religion and discriminate against others
[b]Which is fucking illegal[/b]
Please, think, in any capacity. Any at all.[/QUOTE]
okay take it to court then, and when they tell you "no it passes the lemon test" you can ignore them too and insist "no it's illegal because I said so COME ON GUYS THINK!"
[editline]19th August 2012[/editline]
you're just recycling arguments and have yet to produce an example of another religious exhibit that could even be logically placed there.
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;37315188]okay take it to court then, and when they tell you "no it passes the lemon test" you can ignore them too and insist "no it's illegal because I said so"[/QUOTE]
It doesn't pass the Lemon Test.
Are you even reading any of the posts you respond to?
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;37315188]you're just recycling arguments and have yet to produce an example of another religious exhibit that could even be logically placed there.[/QUOTE]
Just like you're riding on this Lemon Test pretty hard and are ignoring the fact that it violates not one, but two of the rules.
The cross isn't being presented as an exhibit, it's being presented as a [b]MEMORIAL[/b].
Do you know what a memorial is? [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial]Here's the Wiki page for it[/url], if you don't.
If it was merely an exhibit, it would be fine. You know, [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?p=37300561#post37300561]like that first post I made in response to you[/url]. [b]But it isn't[/b].
[QUOTE=Paramud;37315208]It doesn't pass the Lemon Test.
Are you even reading any of the posts you respond to?[/QUOTE]
it does and you're wrong and I refuted you but I'll do it again
[QUOTE=Paramud;37314868]The cross isn't, and the fact that they're devoted to including a Christian symbol as a memorial and no others should make it obvious that they aren't being secular about it.[/QUOTE]
again, piece of a whole, this is not a valid argument.
[QUOTE=Paramud;37314868]Except for when one of them is religious by nature, you dolt.[/QUOTE]
Like I said but you ignored, that's not entanglement let alone excessive.
[editline]19th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Paramud;37315208]
Just like you're riding on this Lemon Test pretty hard and are ignoring the fact that it violates not one, but two of the rules.[/QUOTE]
or, you know, none.
because it doesn't.
Also, prove it's a memorial, find a museum official calling it that or something, won't change the legality but I'm curious.
[QUOTE=Chocolate.;37287658]Why don't we just remove all the crosses from the graves in Normandy while we're at it.
[editline]17th August 2012[/editline]
I mean yeah they should be using something to symbolize respect for all religions but taking down a cross isn't the way to send that sort of message.[/QUOTE]
no they shouldn't use anything to show respect to any religion. Individual graves with crosses are fine of course. I don't particularly care so long as there are other secular memorial statues or what have you.
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;37315227]again, piece of a whole, this is not a valid argument.[/quote]
It doesn't matter how small of a piece it fucking is. It could be a god damn post-it note put up by an administrator. If a single cent of tax-payer money goes to establish a fucking religion on public land and discriminating against others, it's a violation of the constitution, and thus [b]fucking illegal[/b].
(by the way, saying "your argument is invalid" is actually not a valid argument.)
[quote]Also, prove it's a memorial, find a museum official calling it that or something, won't change the legality but I'm curious.[/QUOTE]
Because if it wasn't a memorial, there'd be no case, and this would be thrown out.
Because if it was just an artifact, the museum wouldn't be trying to get this suit thrown out on the grounds of the museum representing itself as a "independent non-profit corporation," but rather that it isn't a memorial.
Use context clues.
[QUOTE=Splarg!;37307405]Having a big cross in the main area of a memorial that's dedicated to ALL of the victims is not appropriate. Having a memorial somewhere on the grounds dedicated specifically to Christian victims would be fine.[/QUOTE]
But then having only a special section dedicated to Christians would be equally offensive, it would make it seem like they were more important than the rest.
[QUOTE=Paramud;37315442]It doesn't matter how small of a piece it fucking is. It could be a god damn post-it note put up by an administrator. If a single cent of tax-payer money goes to establish a fucking religion on public land and discriminating against others, it's a violation of the constitution, and thus [b]fucking illegal[/b].[/QUOTE]
It isn't. Nothing more to say because you're entrenched in a false view of the law.
[editline]19th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Paramud;37315442]
Because if it wasn't a memorial, there'd be no case, and this would be thrown out.
Because if it was just an artifact, the museum wouldn't be trying to get this suit thrown out on the grounds of the museum representing itself as a "independent non-profit corporation," but rather that it isn't a memorial.
Use context clues.[/QUOTE]
Yup, no one who ever makes law suits are wrong
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;37316195]It isn't. Nothing more to say because you're entrenched in a false view of the law.[/QUOTE]
The irony is palpable.
[QUOTE=Paramud;37316462]The irony is palpable.[/QUOTE]
Yup, supreme court precedent is false.
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;37316195]It isn't. Nothing more to say because you're entrenched in a false view of the law.[/QUOTE]
"No I'm right, you're stupid"
[QUOTE=DireAvenger;37320999]"No I'm right, you're stupid"[/QUOTE]
I've explained my point. His doesn't stand and he's doing exactly what you said I'm doing.
[editline]20th August 2012[/editline]
But I respect him for actually debating rather than rating dumb like the idiots who can't argue without their automatic ad hominem button.
[QUOTE=supersnail11;37287315] We feel very strongly that this is an attempt to Christianize 9/11, to make it about Christians, even though it's not about Christians at all. [/QUOTE]
Pull the 50 foot pole out of your ass pal and have some respect. For a group that believes in freedom of religion, you guys sure do a great job of believing what you preach in.
[QUOTE=Venezuelan;37315227]it does and you're wrong and I refuted you but I'll do it again
again, piece of a whole, this is not a valid argument.
Like I said but you ignored, that's not entanglement let alone excessive.
[editline]19th August 2012[/editline]
or, you know, none.
because it doesn't.
Also, prove it's a memorial, find a museum official calling it that or something, won't change the legality but I'm curious.[/QUOTE]
i find your lack of faith
disturbing
[editline]19th August 2012[/editline]
really though this doesn't seem like that big of a deal
[QUOTE=Michael haxz;37321148]Pull the 50 foot pole out of your ass pal and have some respect. For a group that believes in freedom of religion, you guys sure do a great job of believing what you preach in.[/QUOTE]
What is so hard about just respecting that other faiths were involved in 9/11 and giving them some recognition as well instead of just waving a cross over the entire thing?
[QUOTE=Boxbot219;37321184]What is so hard about just respecting that other faiths were involved in 9/11 and giving them some recognition as well instead of just waving a cross over the entire thing?[/QUOTE]
Thats not the issue here for I never said anything about representing other religions, its how atheists are using some pretty stupid reasoning such as "We feel very strongly that this is an attempt to Christianize 9/11, to make it about Christians" to get this thing removed and quite frankly it's pretty irritating. I have nothing against the other religions involved in this and if they wish to do something to honor them aswell then thats fine with me.
[QUOTE=scout1;37288090][URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Veterans_Affairs_emblems_for_headstones_and_markers[/URL][/QUOTE]
I'm actually pretty happy with what they'd give me if I was killed before officially resigning from the church:
[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/USVA_headstone_emb-06.svg/79px-USVA_headstone_emb-06.svg.png[/IMG]
Daww it has a heart on it
[QUOTE=Boxbot219;37321184]What is so hard about just respecting that other faiths were involved in 9/11 and giving them some recognition as well instead of just waving a cross over the entire thing?[/QUOTE]
If they really wanted other religions represented in the memorial they would have done just that. What exactly did they hope to achieve by removing the cross from there?
[QUOTE=Kefirman;37287366]Well, they have a point - there should't only be Christian cross, why not to present other religious symbols?
And why the hell should something represent atheism? What can they choose for it?[/QUOTE]
Wait.. If they represent something for atheism... Wouldn't it kinda mean that atheism is a religion?
[QUOTE=Region;37322935]Wait.. If they represent something for atheism... Wouldn't it kinda mean that atheism is a religion?[/QUOTE]
No
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